Dreger: Matt Duchene Mega-thread:Habs, NSH, NYI inquired - Part II

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islesfan3913

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Dont see any way isles get him without hamonic or barzal. It very likely will take both

That makes sense. I'd probably ok with moving Hamonic if the other pieces included weren't too over the top but I just can't bring myself to move Barzal. The most I'd go would be Hamonic, Dal Colle and a 1st but even that's tough.
 

Habs Halifax

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As much as I'd like Duchene, or Landeskog for that matter, on the habs...the Isles and/or Ducks are a much better trade partner imo.

That's because you think the Aves are getting a proven top 2 defenseman for Duchene who is 2 seasons away from UFA and entering his decline years in his next contract. Aves will get a young defenseman in a package deal because proven top 2 defensemen are very rare and they don't come at a cheap price!

However, the Habs GM is already on record saying he will not overpay. Same with the Sens and some other teams. You may be right... Habs have taken Sakic's # off speed dial now more than likely.
 

Pacman33

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Considering both pieces have been mentioned as nauseum in trade proposals on this forum and in other outlets, it's implied.

The really question is why I took your statement without a grain of salt. Nothing points to the fact that the Avs are looking to take on a "cap dump" as the third piece in a deal for Duchene.

GMs are laughing at Sakics ransom, if they had the opportunity to dump salary, I don't think the price would be regarded as so high.
That was more in regard to montreal who would need to move salary back for cap purposes. Avs arent looking to take back cap dumps but would probably be willing if they are offered the right deal
 

Habs Halifax

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Why trying to persuade us again by saying what you're offering us is more than fair for 2 years of Duchene when we know we can get much better than that in value. No Sergachev. No deal. Simple as that. Sakic wants a top4D with potential of top-pairing upside. How many times do we need to mention it? If you don't want to offer Sergachev than move on. Do you really think Avs will go for your 2nd best prospect D when he can acquire your best with trading our best player in Duchene. That's why he's available in the first place...BTW did he bend for ROR. He got what we wanted in Zadorov.

Not trying to persuade you into anything. I simply started with a post asking for reasonable replies to an offer. That's part of negotiation but some like to bark a lot with replies due to frustration.

Tim Murry was considered extremely aggressive acquiring ROR and the Aves benefited. TM was also able to negotiate a behind the scenes deal where could do a sign and trade as ROR has one year left on his deal at the time. That's not the same situation with Duchene but it could be if Sakic waits for a few more years. Will another GM pull a TM over again? Maybe? But personally I wouldn't so good luck to the team who overpays and at a risk of losing Duchene 2 seasons from now!
 

Habs Halifax

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That was more in regard to montreal who would need to move salary back for cap purposes. Avs arent looking to take back cap dumps but would probably be willing if they are offered the right deal

I don't believe salary is a concern as Duchene's $6M AAV prorated for the remaining of the year is somewhere around $1-2M. Most teams can make this space with the other NHL'er coming back the other way or already has the cap space.
 

jrmysell

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I don't believe salary is a concern as Duchene's $6M AAV prorated for the remaining of the year is somewhere around $1-2M. Most teams can make this space with the other NHL'er coming back the other way or already has the cap space.

Do you have an obsession with Duchene? This is like the third thread you've posted on of him saying he's going to get a terrible return. Why? Say you don't want to give up whoever from the Mon-Col threads and leave him be...
 

Avelanche

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That's because you think the Aves are getting a proven top 2 defenseman for Duchene who is 2 seasons away from UFA and entering his decline years in his next contract. Aves will get a young defenseman in a package deal because proven top 2 defensemen are very rare and they don't come at a cheap price!

However, the Habs GM is already on record saying he will not overpay. Same with the Sens and some other teams. You may be right... Habs have taken Sakic's # off speed dial now more than likely.

He’s 26, why are you even mentioning his declining years. Even a 7 year extension still makes him 35 or so.
 

Habs Halifax

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That's not my opinion when Sakic clearly said he's looking in a top-4D who has top-pairing potential. Seriously, put yourself at the place of Sakic...is Juulsen gonna make it done? Probably not for what he's looking for. Too many question marks compared to Sergachev's game.

Oh and yes call me crazy...but for better value, I would rather trade Mackinnon and keep Duchene. I like his game more than Mackinnon and yes, I believe he's our best player right now.

Curious, Do you know Juulsen well? He's a very reliable defenseman that plays a smart game and his strength is defense and making very few mistakes. He is 20 next year and will be a top 4D (at least) and a good top 2D pairing defenseman when he hits age 22 or 23. If you watched him play for Canada at the world juniors, you would of noticed he's not considered an offensive type but very solid defensibly.

Correct me here? Isn't the Aves looking for defenseman near MacKinnon's age so they can build around him? Makes no sense to acquire anyone who is lets say older than 23 or 24 don't you think?
 

Habs Halifax

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He’s 26, why are you even mentioning his declining years. Even a 7 year extension still makes him 35 or so.

A contract extension happens when? Here is the answer... age 29. He's still going to be effective and the team the acquired him will have him guaranteed for the next 3 playoffs (age 26, 27, 28) but then he needs a much larger contract at age 29 and he will get paid or he walks. Get my point? It's not as gravy as it's being presented to be and that's why his value is affected. Why the hell is the Aves willing to trade him after all? Before some go on a tantrum twisting post go read the original post that was posted please. I would love to have Duchene but the value is set to high and all other 30 GM's agree.

Decline: It's different with each player. IMO, it happens and affects players more when their game is built on speed. That's Duchene and he likely has 5 or 6 really good years left then it becomes a concern (maybe). The issue is your only guaranteed to have him for half that time then he gets a monster contract due to earning UFA rights.
 
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Ice Crusher

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Curious, Do you know Juulsen well? He's a very reliable defenseman that plays a smart game and his strength is defense and making very few mistakes. He is 20 next year and will be a top 4D (at least) and a good top 2D pairing defenseman when he hits age 22 or 23. If you watched him play for Canada at the world juniors, you would of noticed he's not considered an offensive type but very solid defensibly.

Correct me here? Isn't the Aves looking for defenseman near MacKinnon's age so they can build around him? Makes no sense to acquire anyone who is lets say older than 23 or 24 don't you think?

If you like Juulsen that much why don't you keep him? Also, if you want Duchene that much since most of your posts surrounds him than you know where we stands in trading Duchene and it just proves that you really want him but don't want to pay the according price. Get real.
 

Hunn

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Believe this is a fair trade for both NYI and Col

To NYI: Duchene

To Col: Hamonic + Barzal + 1st round pick

Col can also have Pulock insteak of Hamonic if they want.

Duchene is very good player. Probably, very-good-to-borderline-elite. Currently he outscores every Islander – except of course Tavares (they live in different strata) and Bailey (who has his best season by far) – while playing for one of the worse teams in the parity era.

But top D + best prospect + 1st is too much.

The guy never put more than 70 points in 7+ seasons, and even that was in that fluke season when they won their division.

ONE of Hamonic/Barzal/Pulock + 1st + some combination of a second tier prospect and/or a middle pick and/or a mid-tier regular = fair value.
 

KrisBeKreame

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Where did you see I considered Barzal or Pulock a cap dump...:help:

On top of that...does Hamonic have top-pairing upside. No but I would gladly have him on my team in a deal revolving Duchene. Hamonic + 1st + prospect.

Hamonic is currently a top pairing defenceman. so how could he not have top-pairing upside?
 

Pacman33

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Hamonic is currently a top pairing defenceman. so how could he not have top-pairing upside?

Hamonic plays top pairing on isles because they dont have better options. On a team with strong defense he would be a solid #3 guy which is very valuable but not top pairing. Same sort of arguement bruins fans made about carlo playing top pairing. Another example is beauch in colorado. He plays top pairing minutes every game. If he was on a team with a good defense, he would probably be in the press box
 

Habs Halifax

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If you like Juulsen that much why don't you keep him? Also, if you want Duchene that much since most of your posts surrounds him than you know where we stands in trading Duchene and it just proves that you really want him but don't want to pay the according price. Get real.

I was just asking you a question and also called a negotiation process. Relax dude. And before it gets twisted, the offer was Juulsen, Gallagher, 2nd round pick ;)
 

Habs Halifax

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Hamonic for Duchene straight up favors the NYI. If the Islanders add a 2nd or 1st round pick, then it becomes close IMO. However, I suspect Sakic is going after a potential top 2D future prospect on D to grow with MacKinnon. That's what I would do anyways... someone from 18-23 and will be under team control for the foreseeable future.
 

Disgraced Cosmonaut

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I think this deal will be more like CdH, Pulock and either a pick or another prospect.
I love Hammer but for a team like Colorado to get a pp1 QB weaponized laser beam in Pulock and a really nice young Vet in CdH, helps stabilize the D for the foreseeable future. Couple that with a mid round 1st and you're not complaining about your rebuild.
 

JoemAvs

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Jul 2, 2011
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Duchene is very good player. Probably, very-good-to-borderline-elite. Currently he outscores every Islander – except of course Tavares (they live in different strata) and Bailey (who has his best season by far) – while playing for one of the worse teams in the parity era.

But top D + best prospect + 1st is too much.

The guy never put more than 70 points in 7+ seasons, and even that was in that fluke season when they won their division.

ONE of Hamonic/Barzal/Pulock + 1st + some combination of a second tier prospect and/or a middle pick and/or a mid-tier regular = fair value.

No it is really not.

Especially if you consider that the Avs realistically don't have a real need for Hamonic, Barzal or Pulock.

Hamonic and Pulock are not better than EJ or Barrie respectively in their roles. EJ > Hamonic defensively IMO and Barrie >> Pulock offensively.

Barzals absolute ceiling is probably close to what Duchene is right now.

So why would the Avs do this?


The only way Sakic shouldn't demand a young, top tier D prospect or young NHL player (preferably LHD or atleast potentially a serious upgrade on EJ or Barrie) is if someone really overpays.

From the Isles it should take atleast Hamonic+ Barzal + 1st.

Everything else makes trading Duchene to the Isles not worth it for the Avs..
 

Habs Halifax

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Hahaha. You have yet to bring up one valid point. That's why even Montreal fans have been disagreeing with you.

The only Habs fans that are disagreeing with me is the ones who think the Habs should make a desperate trade acquiring Duchene and trading Sergachev in a package deal. Most Habs fans who know what they are talking about (and there are many) say Sergachev stays including our GM!

But hey... if that makes you feel better, fill your boots. Lets spare others with a post war please. Come up with material and lets debate. Otherwise, personal attacks are not cool and just go on and on proving nothing.
 

BatVader

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I was just asking you a question and also called a negotiation process. Relax dude. And before it gets twisted, the offer was Juulsen, Gallagher, 2nd round pick ;)

That's a lousy offer for Montreal.
Opens a huge hole on the RW with no one to fill it.
Just bad.
Stop trying to move Gallagher. He's not going anywhere.

The only Habs fans that are disagreeing with me is the ones who think the Habs should make a desperate trade acquiring Duchene and trading Sergachev in a package deal. Most Habs fans who know what they are talking about (and there are many) say Sergachev stays including our GM!

But hey... if that makes you feel better, fill your boots. Lets spare others with a post war please. Come up with material and lets debate. Otherwise, personal attacks are not cool and just go on and on proving nothing.

Nice how you say those who disagree with you know nothing and those who agree with you are knowledgable.
Nice ego there.
For the record, moving Sergachev for Duchene makes sense to anyone with hockey IQ. Duchene fits the window demographic and gives us a much better chance at re-signing Price when he's due be use it shows the team is trying to win, not just going around in endless circles of retooling and rebuilding.
As for Bergevin staying, that will depend on whether or not this team can contend. He won't be around for years if the team doesn't make the playoffs and look like true Cup contenders.
The only "fans" who think he should be around regardless are sad his Foxhole buddy was finally kicked to the curb where he belongs.
 
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Habs Halifax

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I can't wait to see what shakes out of this!

I really feel Sakic's job is on the line if he trades Duchene for what offers are currently on the table. Unless some GM comes in late at trade deadline and offers something Sakic can't refuse, Duchene stays an Aves IMO.

All GM's that are interested in Duchene (we all know there are many) have an end game in mind and so does Sakic. Offers will come in at the last moment before the trade deadline and it's up to Sakic to see if it's worth it or can he get more in the off season.
 

Habs Halifax

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That's a lousy offer for Montreal.
Opens a huge hole on the RW with no one to fill it.
Just bad.
Stop trying to move Gallagher. He's not going anywhere.

We disagree. And I previously answered this. Habs have depth at RW and in any trade, you have to give to get. Question is, does the Aves want the 24 year old Gallagher on RW in that packaged deal. I love Gallagher and would hate to see him go but he's the guy that fits and is near MacKinnon's age. Depth on RW the Habs have is Radulov, Gallagher, Shaw, McCarron, Scherbak. I would say that's where they have the most depth besides goal tending.

I suspect you think it's a lousy offer because your fooled thinking Sakic is actually getting the ridiculous high price. Congrats... your falling for his negotiation strategy
 

BatVader

"nothing is true; everything is permitted"
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We disagree. And I previously answered this. Habs have depth at RW and in any trade, you have to give to get. Question is, does the Aves want the 24 year old Gallagher on RW in that packaged deal. I love Gallagher and would hate to see him go but he's the guy that fits and is near MacKinnon's age. Depth on RW the Habs have is Radulov, Gallagher, Shaw, McCarron, Scherbak. I would say that's where they have the most depth besides goal tending.

I suspect you think it's a lousy offer because your fooled thinking Sakic is actually getting the ridiculous high price. Congrats... your falling for his negotiation strategy

Lmao... ok.
Habs have RW depth.....:facepalm:
I'm done.
You have yourself a good day.
 
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