Player Discussion Marner Talk - Fresh, insightful comments are welcome

[ACC1224]

That's where I parked my vote in the poll. It's not what I want, but what I think will happen.



Seems a safe one? Guy is in prime of career, if he was worth 11m coming off his ELC, he's worth more now, in terms of negotiations. Higher cap too.



Walking him in to UFA is an option they might have to take, it's real. If they want to move on and he doesn't that's what happens. You'd hope to get something, but if nothing else you get 11 million in cap space, and that's ok enough. Happens in the NFL all the time.

Was he though?
There's no doubt the agent will try and get as much as possible, the thought that Marner has already demanded more is what I question.
I'd be surprised if he's even thought about it.


*** many of those saying it's nothing personal just need to move on are full of shit.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

To be fair even if he had signed for 9 million on his last deal, would he get much less criticism as he's getting now for his playoff performances? Maybe only slightly so. People were criticising Nylander a ton on his last deal even though it was pretty reasonable at the time, but they still wanted him to sign for less.

So yeah maybe Marner gets a little bit less heat if he's a 9 million player instead of almost 11 million, but not by much I'd say.

I disagree on this. If Marner was the guy who took a reasonable deal, they would be asking the other 3 why they didn't and would they have had a better team with the extra money. They would not be nearly as rabid about his deficiencies as they are now IMO.

 

[Notsince67]

That's where I parked my vote in the poll. It's not what I want, but what I think will happen.



Seems a safe one? Guy is in prime of career, if he was worth 11m coming off his ELC, he's worth more now, in terms of negotiations. Higher cap too.



Walking him in to UFA is an option they might have to take, it's real. If they want to move on and he doesn't that's what happens. You'd hope to get something, but if nothing else you get 11 million in cap space, and that's ok enough. Happens in the NFL all the time.

Right so let's not pretend otherwise. The merits of him walking is a roster spot and some cap. There is likely little if any return on a trade. There is likely negative return by benching him to attempt coersive acceptance of a trade.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I would agree. Tavares competed every shift. His skill has just eroded quite a bit.

I would say Mitch works hard, but he doesn't compete.

He doesn't change the way he does things when he is finding zero success. He soesn't fight for the extra inch.

Ferraro was on last night. He said Mitch was either injured or disinterested. He also pointed out that he had to only be great for one play. The same way Pasta was invisible all series except for when it mattered most

That's a good way of putting it. He said years ago that there's no part of his game that need to work on so why change? He's seems to be a good natured kid who's just a tad delusional but to be fair, it's hard to objectively appraise yourself. But it's also arrogant to think you have nothing to work on so there is that sense of self-entitlement as well.

Yeah it will be a tough script to flip. No real downside, he already is the villain.

He's not a villian, why are you trying to make him into one? He's done nothing wrong, he's just a very good hockey player who is nowhere near as good in the playoffs as he is in the regular season, that's all. There's no reason to think he isn't trying to play as well as he can so how does that make him a villain?

True, but you can get 2 good players for his singular cap hit.

I think he's re-signing, with a raise, and staying put.

They will all be giving a fresh start with a new coach.

You may well be right, but I sure hope not.

I'm not sure why this situation is confounding you.

There are certainly reasons why he might elect to stay in Toronto next year even if he was looking to go elsewhere as a free agent.

First and foremost, this is home and by his own admission he really likes it here. That , more than anything else, should "make sense" to you.

Secondly, as a pending UFA who wants to maximize his value, staying in a situation where you're playing with high end offensive players certainly makes a ton of sense for someone who wants to post the best possible numbers that they can in order to maximize their next contract.

Third, he simply may not have any interest in moving right now if he's going to end up moving again as a free agent in 12 months. It's in his best interest, if he's leaving Toronto (and I'm not at all convinced that he is) to wait until the summer, assess the situations of all the teams and then decide where he's heading. Why decide now, a year in advance, only to facilitate a trade for Toronto, which would in turn weaken the team he is heading to? It makes a lot of sense for the Leafs, of course, but I don't see what Marner gets out of it. He weakens the team he is joining and then he forgoes the chance to go to market and maximize his dollar value by signing an extension with the team that acquired him?

Why?

There are reasons he would want to stay, good job of listing them. There is at least one really good reason he would want to go though which is quite simply this - people generally don't want to stay somewhere where they're not wanted.

Nothing personal?
YOU said
"Marner control where he goes and that's fine, as long as he goes"
Sounds like it's personal when you are willing to get rid of assets for nothing. Why not pay him out and release him from his contract? Does that make sense? It doesn't because it's stupid. Your specious hand waving dismissals aren't a serious option to grownups.

He's just a player who's taking up a ton of cap space and fading away in the biggest games so it makes sense to use that cap space in a more productive way. It has nothing to do with the fact that it's Marner so no, it's not personal, what part of this are you having trouble with. And of course if we trade him, there will be something coming back our way in addition to 11 million in cap space so we're not giving him away either.

It’s ok Gary. Last night I prayed to Gary Roberts that he would fix the core. Have faith my son.

I'm not very good with faith, I prefer logic and reason.

 

[Squiffy]

Was he though?
There's no doubt the agent will try and get as much as possible, the thought that Marner has already demanded more is what I question.
I'd be surprised if he's even thought about it.


*** many of those saying it's nothing personal just need to move on are full of shit.

No he wasn't, except for the undeniable truth of capitalism. He got it, so therefore he was worth it. And you can't put the ketchup back in the bottle.

 

[Notsince67]

Maybe he takes three years at Willy money to line it up with AM's UFA year. 3 more kicks at the can with the old band and it works or it doesn't and they head off in to the sunset together.

If shanny survives, it is unlikely he gambles with Keefe another year. I get its tre's call but it is the hockey thing to do to cut a coach loose.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Right so let's not pretend otherwise. The merits of him walking is a roster spot and some cap. There is likely little if any return on a trade. There is likely negative return by benching him to attempt coersive acceptance of a trade.

1)
Cap space is worth a lot.

2)
Not sure why you think there would be little return, do you not think he's a valuable asset?

3)
As far as benching him, I don't see that happening either but hopefully he agrees to a trade and we don't have to even think about that.

 

[ACC1224]

No he wasn't, except for the undeniable truth of capitalism. He got it, so therefore he was worth it. And you can't put the ketchup back in the bottle.

Dubas really was so far in over his head.

 

[rumman]

Long time coming……

Lets hope this is accurate…….

 

[rumman]

If Shanahan isn't fired on Thursday, then Mitch is coming back.

I pray both are gone……

 

[Trapper]

That's a good way of putting it. He said years ago that there's no part of his game that need to work on so why change? He's seems to be a good natured kid who's just a tad delusional but to be fair, it's hard to objectively appraise yourself. But it's also arrogant to think you have nothing to work so there is that sense of self-entitlement as well.


He's not a villian, why are you trying to make him into one? He's done nothing wrong, he's just a very good hockey player who is nowhere near as good in the playoffs as he is in the regular season, that's all. There's no reason to think he isn't trying to play as well as he can so how does that make him a villain?


You may well be right, but I sure hope not.

There are reasons he would want to stay, good job of listing them. There is at least one really good reason he would want to go though which is quite simply this - people generally don't want to stay somewhere where they're not wanted.


He's just a player who's taking up a ton of cap space and fading away in the biggest games so it makes sense to use that cap space in a more productive way. It has nothing to do with the fact that it's Marner so no, it's not personal, what part of this are you having trouble with. And of course if we trade him, there will be something coming back our way in addition to 11 million in cap space so we're not giving him away either.


I'm not very good with faith, I prefer logic and reason.

You may be in the wrong place for both…

 

[Superstar]

You guys want to hear something funny?
Not only will Mitch not be traded, he will be extended.

April 1st was a month ago...

 

[Notsince67]

1)
Cap space is worth a lot.

2)
Not sure why you think there would be little return, do you not think he's a valuable asset?

3)
As far as benching him, I don't see that happening either but hopefully he agrees to a trade and we don't have to even think about that.

They have an eighth year to trade...and only if he likes the team and only if he likes the eighth year and only if he likes the money offer. They have nothing else. It would have to be an offer he couldn't refuse because he could get all of it without the Leafs except the eighth year...after his contract is done.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

He does, but I’m asking why would he not waive if asked? Why would he stay in an environment that is not going to re-sign him (or make the offer he wants)? Spend a year in a place where the media and fans know he wouldn’t waive to walk away the following year? Makes no sense.

I just heard Friedman saying that Ferris always recommends his clients go to UFA....so that might make it easier to trade him vs the sign and trade where the team might be unhappy with his 1st year (PL Dubois for example) and then stuck with him.

I would call their bluff if they give you a very short list of teams and say you're going to have to sit until we find a good deal amongst the few teams you gave us the option to talk to.

 

[Egghead1999]

Walk and do what exactly? You think they have a person in the system that can take his spot? You think ufas are dying to come to Toronto? What?

That is the problem here, no one is saying MM is not a great player. Do the Leafs need MM to win the cup? That is the REAL question that the front office needs to dig deep into.
I believe the Leafs already have enough firepower and need to use cap space elsewhere. So, lucky to have AM and #19, if not, the Leafs have no choice but to extend him even though he is meh in playoffs.

 

[Squiffy]

Dubas really was so far in over his head.

Ya, way too much. 9-ish was probably right? Still too much but between Willy and AM you'd have argued, within that cap structure, was right.

Sitting him in a pressbox is not a real thing that will happen. Not to anyone specifically, but please people, stop suggesting it. It's not real.

 

[Cypruss]

Absolutely re-sign him IF you can agree to a proper contract.

Looking at a range around Matthew Tkachuk ($9.500.000), Roope Hintz ($8,450,000), Mathew Barzal ($9,150,000) or Kiril Kaprizov ($9,000,000).
All similar age (26-27) and all-star level players.

If he wants/demands more - Treliving needs to push for a NMC waiving and trade for strong assets (first pair D + prospect/pick).

That is my opinion at least.

 

[Egghead1999]

I just heard Friedman saying that Ferris always recommends his clients go to UFA....so that might make it easier to trade him vs the sign and trade where the team might be unhappy with his 1st year (PL Dubois for example) and then stuck with him.

I would call their bluff if they give you a very short list of teams and say you're going to have to sit until we find a good deal amongst the few teams you gave us the option to talk to.

That is not good for the team, will create a toxic environment (don't know it is fake or not, it seems that teammates like him based on the interview) and have trouble signing UFA later.
very interesting, UFA??, how many non-playoff teams have $ to sign him

 

[Squiffy]

Absolutely re-sign him IF you can agree to a proper contract.

Looking at a range around Matthew Tkachuk ($9.500.000), Roope Hintz ($8,450,000), Mathew Barzal ($9,150,000) or Kiril Kaprizov ($9,000,000).
All similar age (26-27) and all-star level players.

If he wants/demands more - Treliving needs to push for a NMC waiving and trade for strong assets (first pair D + prospect/pick).

That is my opinion at least.

That would be fine right? I don't know how you get him to take less though. But I was saying the same 6 months ago. Offer him like 9*8 and double dog dare him to walk out on his home town. If he does he does.

 

[Gary Nylund]

They have an eighth year to trade...and only if he likes the team and only if he likes the eighth year and only if he likes the money offer. They have nothing else. It would have to be an offer he couldn't refuse because he could get all of it without the Leafs except the eighth year...after his contract is done.

He can "get all of it" after playing one year some place else. Even one year of Marner is worth a lot to whoever wants him considering the price teams pay for rentals and I believe after his bonus is paid, he costs almost nothing in terms of real money which is also attractive to some teams And like I said, cap space is valuable too so take whatever return you get for him and add 11 million cap space to that, that's a fair bit. And considering his miniscule contribution in these playoffs, it's not hard to see us improving with that return.

And then of course maybe he does like the new team and the money offer etc., you never know.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Lot of discussion on moving on but I'm curious how many of you are confident that this will happen.
Question isn't should they? that has been beaten to death.

The question is a simple WILL IT HAPPEN?

Option 5 No. Let him stay and play out the rest of his contract.

 

[Squiffy]

He can "get all of it" after playing one year some place else. Even one year of Marner is worth a lot to whoever wants him considering the price teams pay for rentals and I believe after his bonus is paid, he costs almost nothing in terms of real money which is also attractive to some teams And like I said, cap space is valuable too so take whatever return you get for him and add 11 million cap space to that, that's a fair bit. And considering his miniscule contribution in these playoffs, it's not hard to see us improving with that return.

And then of course maybe he does like the new team and the money offer etc., you never know.

Only costs $775,000 real coin after July 1, yes.

 

[ACC1224]

Option 5 No. Let him stay and play out the rest of his contract.

That's Option 2.

 

[kevsh]

Looking at a range around Matthew Tkachuk ($9.500.000), Roope Hintz ($8,450,000), Mathew Barzal ($9,150,000) or Kiril Kaprizov ($9,000,000).
All similar age (26-27) and all-star level players.

That is a fair argument but I don't see a universe where he accepts a pay cut.
Unless he really wants to stay here.

And even then, if Shanahan is still calling the shots he's more likely to be offered $12M than 9.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

That's Option 2.

Oh' I see.