Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
Leading scorer amongst NBA rookies. He's diabetic, but still a top young gun.Adam Morrison????
Leading scorer amongst NBA rookies. He's diabetic, but still a top young gun.Adam Morrison????
Leading scorer amongst NBA rookies. He's diabetic, but still a top young gun.
Ahhh. Thank you.
I don't really follow basketball much and I couldn't for the life of me figure out what NHL team had an Adam Morrison.
Not only that, but he NEARLY single-handedly lifted the 84 and 90 Oilers, and 94 Rangers to cups. Gretzky was good in 84... but Messier was ON FIRE, and his play against the Islanders in the Stanley Cup finals was the stuff that legends are made of.
As for his career... if Messier would have retired when he left NY the first time around, he'd STILL lead Clarke in goals (575), assists (977), points (1,552), and cups. 1272 games is the amount he would have stopped at, and it only would have been 128 games more... not even 2 full seasons. If you ask me, I think for Messier's sake, he'd be considered just as highly if he stopped after his last season in NY.
Messier captained two different franchises to Stanley Cups. Clarke only did it with one. Messier won 6 cups, and a Conn Smythe. Bobby Clarke NEVER won a Conn Smythe.
So he won an MVP over the league's top scorer... Messier did that in 90 and 92, Gretzky leading scoring in 90, and Lemieux leading in 92. The league's top scorer isn't always necessarily the league's most valuable player.
Not only that, but he NEARLY single-handedly lifted the 84 and 90 Oilers, and 94 Rangers to cups. Gretzky was good in 84... but Messier was ON FIRE, and his play against the Islanders in the Stanley Cup finals was the stuff that legends are made of.
I was going to mention him winning over Gretzky and Lemieux
You mean Mike Bossy? Yeah, Mike Bossy did destroy us, and then when his back went down, so did the Islanders franchise.
Clarke though has the distinction of being the first successful diabetic pro athlete. That is nothing to sneeze at and takes alot of commitment and work to simply be able to play.
One argument for Clarke. Bobby Orr only played one complete season, 74-75, that year he won the Art Ross, Bobby Clarke won MVP. There are only a handful of players that have won MVP 3 times or more, Howie Morenz, Eddie Shore, Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Bobby Clarke, Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux. Even if you count Clarke as the worst of the bunch, that is elite company. And, he won against names like Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito and Guy Lafluer, hardly players to sneeze at.
Messier on the other hand, has the distinction of captaining two different teams to the Stanley cup, winning 6 in total. Two time MVP against very tough competition from Gretzky and Lemieux. And has a long career that's given him a large edge in total points.
As a career guy I'm inclined to take Moose over Clarke but would take Trotts over both of them and Forsberg as well.
I thoroughly hate them both and am glad the league doesn't tolerate dirty play anymore, essentially eliminating their kind. That said, Messier is also one of the most overhyped players in history. People say he lifted teams to the Cup, I say he destroyed teams in his final 8 years, during which Canucks and NYR failed to make playoffs despite all-world roster.
His career does look more impressive, although Wayne really was the man with the Oilers, that's probably why Moose has a hard time crackign top 25 on alot of lists.
So to me it's Trottier > Clarke > Mess.
I'd take Forsberg over both as well. I don't know if I can count on two hands how many players I would take over Forsberg assuming everyone is at their absolute best.....
4
99
66
Gordie
Rocket
Robinson
Lindros
Shore
Potvin
Forsberg was one of the most dominating players of all-time IMO if judging by peak.
I still have PEAK Forsberg over....
Beliveau
Lafleur
Coffey
Lidstrom
Morenz
Hull(s)
Trottier
Messier
Clarke
Bossy
Crosby
Yzerman
Sakic
Ovechkin
Bourque
etc.
Messier did his thing for much longer than Clarke and was better in the playoffs.
The bolded were definitely better than Forsberg at peak, everyone else is arguable.
You also left off guys like Fedorov (arguable), Jagr, Pronger, Chelios, and even Zetterberg (arguable) and Datsyuk (arguable). And many more, like Mikita, Harvey, Kelly, etc. Forsberg has become so insanely overrated on these boards it's ridiculous.
Messier had an offensive advantage. If you are giving him his longevity as a significant advantage, that offensive advantage goes away. Why? Because Messier's offensive peak was not any better than Clarke's
Clarke had a decided defensive advantage. There isn't much debate on this point.
They were both physical, intimidating players but Messier has an advantage there. Both were excellent leaders, and it's arguable who is better.
I give it to Clarke; Messier hanging around for several years as a ridiculously overpaid depth player just to compile numbers doesn't make him better than Clarke.
Well, we can agree to disagree. Skating, passing, tenacity, physical play, scoring, clutch play and defense..... Forsberg did it all at his peak and with style that was often jaw-dropping. There were no flaws in Forsberg's game.... he was almost the perfect player like Orr (injuries aside.... talking healthy at PEAK).
You can't separate these.
Most players who play any kind of significant physical game will also often miss time injured.
It's a tradeoff.
That's actually one of the big arguments in Messier's favor; he rarely missed time injured despite his style.
Bobby Clarke was my favorite player growing up, outside of that ugly ankle breaking incident, loved his desire and determination.
That being said his stats are really weak for a top 20ish guy of all time. He played in a really diluted league and only really had elite stats when he was the set up guy for Reggie "the rifle" Leach.
Moose is sometimes overrated as well, he played for a very long time but his ego also hurt his legacy in Vancouver and his final seasons in New York were hardly productive.
As a career guy I'm inclined to take Moose over Clarke but would take Trotts over both of them and Forsberg as well.
You can't separate these.
Most players who play any kind of significant physical game will also often miss time injured.
It's a tradeoff.
That's actually one of the big arguments in Messier's favor; he rarely missed time injured despite his style.