Mario, we hardly knew you
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pappyline
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Have no idea what your response means other than that it is rude. Are you saying that Mario. Bobby & bobby where not exciting players? or are you saying that Mario would not have better stats if he played more games or played more games healthy/
Flash Walken
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
pappyline
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Bring Back Bucky
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BM67
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Mario led the NHL in goals 3 times in 87-88 with 70, 88-89 with 85, and 95-96 with 69.
On a goals/game average he would have led in
86-87: Gretzky 62/79 = 0.78 Lemieux 54/63 = 0.86
92-93: Mogilny 76/77 = 0.99 Selanne 76/84 = 0.90 Lemieux 69/60 = 1.15
96-97: Tkachuk 52/81 = 0.64 Lemieux 50/76 = 0.66 (Jagr 47/63 = 0.75)
00-01: Bure 59/82 = 0.72 Lemieux 35/43 = 0.81
Giving him 7 goal scoring titles to tie him with Bobby Hull for the most.
Mario led the NHL in assists 3 times, in 88-89 with 114, in 95-96 with 92 and in 96-97 with 72.
On a assists/game average he would have led in
91-92: Gretzky 90/74 = 1.22 Lemieux 87/64 = 1.36
92-93: Oates 97/84 = 1.15 Lemieux 91/60 = 1.52
00-01: Jagr 69/81 = 0.85 Oates 69/81 = 0.85 Lemieux 41/43 = 0.95
01-02: Oates 64/80 = 0.80 Lemieux 25/24 = 1.04
03-04: Gomez 56/80 = 0.70 St. Louis 56/82 = 0.68 Lemieux 8/10 = 0.80 (Forsberg 37/39 = 0.95)
8 assist titles would still leave him trailing Gretzky (15), but would have him in second place.
Mario led the NHL in points 6 times, in 87-88 with 168, in 88-89 with 199, in 91-92 with 131, in 92-93 with 160, in 96-96 with 161 and in 96-97 with 122.
On a points/game average he would have led in
89-90: Gretzky 142/73 = 1.95 Lemieux 123/59 = 2.08
93-94: Gretzky 130/81 = 1.60 Lemieux 37/22 = 1.68
00-01: Jagr 121/81 = 1.49 Lemieux 76/43 = 1.77
01-02: Iginla 96/82 = 1.17 Lemieux 31/24 = 1.29
Stealing 2 scoring titles from Gretzky would move him ahead and into 1st place with a 10 to 9 edge.
On a goals/game average he would have led in
86-87: Gretzky 62/79 = 0.78 Lemieux 54/63 = 0.86
92-93: Mogilny 76/77 = 0.99 Selanne 76/84 = 0.90 Lemieux 69/60 = 1.15
96-97: Tkachuk 52/81 = 0.64 Lemieux 50/76 = 0.66 (Jagr 47/63 = 0.75)
00-01: Bure 59/82 = 0.72 Lemieux 35/43 = 0.81
Giving him 7 goal scoring titles to tie him with Bobby Hull for the most.
Mario led the NHL in assists 3 times, in 88-89 with 114, in 95-96 with 92 and in 96-97 with 72.
On a assists/game average he would have led in
91-92: Gretzky 90/74 = 1.22 Lemieux 87/64 = 1.36
92-93: Oates 97/84 = 1.15 Lemieux 91/60 = 1.52
00-01: Jagr 69/81 = 0.85 Oates 69/81 = 0.85 Lemieux 41/43 = 0.95
01-02: Oates 64/80 = 0.80 Lemieux 25/24 = 1.04
03-04: Gomez 56/80 = 0.70 St. Louis 56/82 = 0.68 Lemieux 8/10 = 0.80 (Forsberg 37/39 = 0.95)
8 assist titles would still leave him trailing Gretzky (15), but would have him in second place.
Mario led the NHL in points 6 times, in 87-88 with 168, in 88-89 with 199, in 91-92 with 131, in 92-93 with 160, in 96-96 with 161 and in 96-97 with 122.
On a points/game average he would have led in
89-90: Gretzky 142/73 = 1.95 Lemieux 123/59 = 2.08
93-94: Gretzky 130/81 = 1.60 Lemieux 37/22 = 1.68
00-01: Jagr 121/81 = 1.49 Lemieux 76/43 = 1.77
01-02: Iginla 96/82 = 1.17 Lemieux 31/24 = 1.29
Stealing 2 scoring titles from Gretzky would move him ahead and into 1st place with a 10 to 9 edge.
revolverjgw
Registered User
True, but if you give Wayne the same theoretical magical pass, he'd take the 87-88 scoring title, only injury stopped him from winning it that year. Then it would be 10-9 Gretzky.
BM67
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Something like that could only happen in a Gretzky thread.revolverjgw said:
Besides that would still leave the 4 years Mario missed entirely for him to move in front again.
JCD
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BM67 said:Something like that could only happen in a Gretzky thread.
That magic math might work to get Mario a few more trophies to catch up with Wayne, but it does nothing to close the gap in total points.
Wayne's per-game average is better even though Mario sat out most of his golden years artificially preserving his pp/g higher.
Had Mario played as many games as Wayne, he would still trial Wayne in points.
BM67 said:
You seem to think you can miss a year or four and or even a month and come back the same as before. we all know it takes a lot of games to get back to same as before.
Thats what your stats dont show.
Mario (and his points would have been higher on a team of 6 HoFers) and Orr were the greatest overall I saw in the past 30 years. They could do it all.
No question.
The rest of it is marketing b.s.
I dont need to know Mario's dad's name or watch a movie on him. I know Bobby;s dads name is Doug and he raised a fine son. I dont need to know more.
Rico Fatastic
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- Jul 28, 2002
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Cue the 'but Gretzky played more in the high-scoring 80's' argument. I certainly don't know, but I'm sure someone with more time on their hands than me would love to calculate some awesome 'adjusted for era' stats. But I think the Gretzky vs Lemieux argument is just as pointless as the Crosby vs Ovechkin argument.JCD said:
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
(murray, no need to babysit the thread and act all hurt. We are all entitled to our opinion and means of expression.)
But for some reason Lemieux fans feel the need to always speak of their fondest in terms of being the greatest, the best, and other terms of comparison.
This has happened since before Mario entered the NHL. Saying he is, he will be, he would have been, better than Gretzky is annoying and unnecessary.
Mario was great in his own right, one of the best of all time, and skilled in jaw-dropping ways.
I agree.asab said:
But for some reason Lemieux fans feel the need to always speak of their fondest in terms of being the greatest, the best, and other terms of comparison.
This has happened since before Mario entered the NHL. Saying he is, he will be, he would have been, better than Gretzky is annoying and unnecessary.
Mario was great in his own right, one of the best of all time, and skilled in jaw-dropping ways.
pappyline
Registered User
(Vanislander, whats your point, I am not hurt and respect all opinions but your one word answers are offensive and don't add anything to any intelligent discussion).VanIslander said:
I never intended this post to turn unto another Lemieux/Gretzy argument. I think Mario's highlight films are fantastic and comparable to Orr & Hull (Bobby). Vanislander if you disagree that is Ok but your opinion doesn't make much sense.
mcphee
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Lemieux and Orr's careers mirror my sexual experiences. Both were great but neither lasted long enough.
pappyline
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Bring Back Bucky
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Pavel Bure scored 58 goals in a season during one of the trap years.
Pavel Bure was an easy 700 goal scorer maybe even 800 if he stayed healthy... the man is only 34 now he would just be getting out of his prime...
It's easy to play what ifs.
What if the goaltending didn't suck during the Vancouver Messier years?
What if Bill Wirtz didn't own the Blackhawks?
What if Frodo and Gollum didn't destroy the ring?
Pavel Bure was an easy 700 goal scorer maybe even 800 if he stayed healthy... the man is only 34 now he would just be getting out of his prime...
It's easy to play what ifs.
What if the goaltending didn't suck during the Vancouver Messier years?
What if Bill Wirtz didn't own the Blackhawks?
What if Frodo and Gollum didn't destroy the ring?
Big Phil
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- Nov 2, 2003
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To try and put this to rest I personally think not bieng biased because I love each and everyone of these players and respect them very much, I'd still have to say Gretzky is the best of all time.
First off take Lemieux. I hate the argument that the "Penguins never had the teams the Oilers did." Okay but then how do you explain this: After their two Cup wins they had 119 points in the NHL by far the best. They had four guys with 100 or more points and I believe Jagr had 99 or so as well. Larry Murphy and Tom Barasso were both 2nd team all-stars. 4 of the 12 players on the post season all-star teams were Penguins. The two Cup wins the Pens had Mario was injured in the regular season both times so it was hard to judge how many points they could have had. But that '93 Pens team was pretty much as good as any Oilers teams in the 80s, almost. They scored 367 goals that year with Mario missing 24 games.The Oilers of those days got 446 maximum, so its pretty close. So this crap of Mario never playing on a good team should go to rest.
And somehting people forget for reasons that I can never remember are the fact that Gretzky had more assists in a season than anyone had points three times in his career. And one other time it was tied. Okay cue up your "well it was the 80s excuse". Fine then, so why didnt Dionne, Statsny, Trottier and Bossy ever put up near 100 points? I mean if it was so easy? In fact even in '91 Gretzky had 122 assists to Hull's 131 points. Even then he was dominating the next player who wasnt Mario. Four Cups, ten Art Ross Trophies, two Conn Smythe trophies, 8 Hart trophies and 15 post season all-stars. if that isnt the best than what is?
I'll give Gretzky the edge over Mario. Mario was dominant too, especially in times like '93, '89, '96 and even in the playoffs in '91 that was quite a show. But he's a slight notch below Wayne. but hey let just thank God we saw both of these stellar talents do what they do best/
First off take Lemieux. I hate the argument that the "Penguins never had the teams the Oilers did." Okay but then how do you explain this: After their two Cup wins they had 119 points in the NHL by far the best. They had four guys with 100 or more points and I believe Jagr had 99 or so as well. Larry Murphy and Tom Barasso were both 2nd team all-stars. 4 of the 12 players on the post season all-star teams were Penguins. The two Cup wins the Pens had Mario was injured in the regular season both times so it was hard to judge how many points they could have had. But that '93 Pens team was pretty much as good as any Oilers teams in the 80s, almost. They scored 367 goals that year with Mario missing 24 games.The Oilers of those days got 446 maximum, so its pretty close. So this crap of Mario never playing on a good team should go to rest.
And somehting people forget for reasons that I can never remember are the fact that Gretzky had more assists in a season than anyone had points three times in his career. And one other time it was tied. Okay cue up your "well it was the 80s excuse". Fine then, so why didnt Dionne, Statsny, Trottier and Bossy ever put up near 100 points? I mean if it was so easy? In fact even in '91 Gretzky had 122 assists to Hull's 131 points. Even then he was dominating the next player who wasnt Mario. Four Cups, ten Art Ross Trophies, two Conn Smythe trophies, 8 Hart trophies and 15 post season all-stars. if that isnt the best than what is?
I'll give Gretzky the edge over Mario. Mario was dominant too, especially in times like '93, '89, '96 and even in the playoffs in '91 that was quite a show. But he's a slight notch below Wayne. but hey let just thank God we saw both of these stellar talents do what they do best/
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
Chili said:
Talent wise? Lemieux probably has him.
But career, player, etc. wise? He's not even in Gretzky's LEAGUE.
JCD
Registered User
chooch said:
Um, sparky, Mario DID play on a team with SIX Hall of Fame players:
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080...ndsPlayersByTeam.jsp?team=Pittsburgh+Penguins
Joe Mullen, Paul Coffey, Larry Murphy and Bryan Trottier are already in. Francis and Jagr are certain to follow. Heck, there is an outside chance that Recchi, Barrasso (who is in the American HOF) and Tocchet might squeek in.
For the record, that is MORE HOF players than Wayne played with:
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080...LegendsPlayersByTeam.jsp?team=Edmonton+Oilers
Paul Coffey, Grant Fuhr and Jari Kurri are it thus far. Messier is certain to join them, but that is it. Anderson and Lowe are on the bubble.
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