Marc Staal vs Jack Johnson

therealdeal

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Apr 22, 2005
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JJ and its not even close. Staal has 1 point in the past 2 world Juniors. Staal is awesome too btw, its just I would take Johnson rather quite easily.

Staal is a defenseman, and he isn't a defensive defenseman, why would you bring up points? :shakehead

You also forgot to mention that MS has 2 gold medals, and JJ only has a medal (a bronze), and Staal has been the best shutdown defenseman in the tournament 2 years in a row.
 

Vagrant

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Do you recall how Pronger played when he was 20 years old? Just read this, http://www.newsobserver.com/796/v-print/story/447928.html
Interesting to note that Rutherford gave up on Pronger at a young age. Wonder if we'll look back the same way with the JJ trade...

Well in fairness, Pronger was traded due to a lack of vision by JR in what he saw in the player on the ice. Was it a bad move in hindsight to give up on him at such a young age? Very much so. However, this case is a bit differant. Johnson hasn't been "given up on", due to playing reasons. I think he was "given up on", due to signability reasons. Unless and until we know the full story behind that, it's not fair to indict Rutherford for being the aggressor in the situation. From a media standpoint, it's very easy for Johnson and his camp to sit back and look like the stunned victims of a GM gone mad trying to kidnap a star player from the college ranks, when in reality it could be something a little more like Johnson expressing sentiment or at least hinting at the fact that he's not interested in being a Carolina Hurricane which makes it a differant situation all together.

Plus, word out of Carolina is that Peter Karmanos is the one that wanted Johnson dealt as soon as possible and not Rutherford. I think Karmanos was insistant on this. Mistake or not, we've still got a long while to view this trade.
 

kingsfann805

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I'm not misrepresenting the context of the situation. I'm saying that if Carolina had drafted Marc Staal they would still have a highly valuable asset with top pairing potential to show for their draft selection instead of a simply nice prospect in Tim Gleason.

Agree, as M. Staal has taken a different path then JJ, and would most likely still be a cane.

That was the major mistake to me, not the actual deal. I think the actual deal was a product of Johnson showing hesitance to sign with this team and it making the team uncomfortable. We really don't know enough about how the negotiations went down between Carolina and Jack Johnson enough to make snap judgements about who was at fault, who didn't get fair value, and how the process went down.

Okay, now I'm a little confused. Your saying that JJ was "making the team uncomfortable" by not signing, then you say that "we really don't know how the process went." So how do you know that it made the team uncomfortable?? and why was the "team" thinking about a prospect in college?? :dunno:

Your simple assertation of, "Carolina wanted to rush him out of college and got mad when he didn't sign", is the same type of contextual misrepresentation.

Below is a clip of an interview JJ did with a fan who I think is a classmate(JackJohnsonFan)

JS: Did it hurt when the Hurricanes traded you away?

JJ: No, it wasn’t personal at all. We obviously weren’t on the same page, and they didn’t agree with my decision. It was my decision to make, and I knew some people wouldn’t agree. It was my choice, and I was going to do what I thought was best for my development. It was a business move, and I absolutely respect the Hurricanes organization decision to move me.


Kind of sounds like they didn't agree (about college), and Carolina traded him because of it??
 

kingsfann805

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Staal is a defenseman, and he isn't a defensive defenseman, why would you bring up points? :shakehead

You also forgot to mention that MS has 2 gold medals, and JJ only has a medal (a bronze), and Staal has been the best shutdown defenseman in the tournament 2 years in a row.

Um, I would imagine that he brought up points because JJ IS an offensive defensman. Usually, when you compare 2 players you compare their entire game.

What do the medals have to do with anything?? You know that M. Staal didn't win the medals by himself, right? So because M. Staal was on a better team (Canada) then JJ (US) that means what again? :dunno:

Don't get me wrong, I think M. Staal was a "stud" at the WJC's and will be a good / great defensmen. At this point in time, it's close but I'd stick with JJ.
 

AnThGrt

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Below is a clip of an interview JJ did with a fan who I think is a classmate(JackJohnsonFan)

JS: Did it hurt when the Hurricanes traded you away?

JJ: No, it wasn’t personal at all. We obviously weren’t on the same page, and they didn’t agree with my decision. It was my decision to make, and I knew some people wouldn’t agree. It was my choice, and I was going to do what I thought was best for my development. It was a business move, and I absolutely respect the Hurricanes organization decision to move me.


Kind of sounds like they didn't agree (about college), and Carolina traded him because of it??
There have been multiple interviews and comments since the trade stating that Carolina wouldn't leave JJ alone. I also know somewhere couldn't find the qoute/link that they did call him during classes and that they would send him and his family messages day after day. I am sorry but that is a pretty damn disrespectfull thing to do. As he sated above it is/was his decision. Everyone knew he had planned on it, before he was drafted, has nothing to do with immaturity, thinking he isn't ready or what not. This was decided a long time ago that he would go this route, and stick to it. That said about his "attitude issues" once again one sees how humble he is in his response stating that he understands the deal and still respects the Canes. He could of easily said the opposite if he thought so, and would of most likely.

As for comparison I believe the Chelios is the best I have heard. I see more Chelios then Jovo
 

Beauty eh?

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We really don't know enough about how the negotiations went down between Carolina and Jack Johnson enough to make snap judgements about who was at fault, who didn't get fair value, and how the process went down.

Hmmm.....Interesting. From last September:

Caniacforever on 9/13/06 said:
At the draft, he said he was going to play two years for Michigan and then after that chapter of his life was over he was going to pursue a career with the Carolina Hurricanes. People scoffed at this saying, "Oh, he'll be there when the money is right. Who can turn down the money?", which is the typical angle for people who money is a problem. As far as I can tell, Jack Johnson and his family aren't having a hard time making rent. That puts even less pressure on Johnson to sign away what are the most fun years of his life to this point. Who wouldn't want to be big man on campus for a little while before jumping straight into the scrutiny of playing professional hockey? He has been sitting in the stands watching Michigan since he was a little kid and commited to that school while he was in his second year of high school, and he intends to bring a championship to Michigan, and he has a very good shot this year if he does in fact stay there.

I love the kid, honestly. He has fire, dedication, and makes decisions like a man instead of being told what to do. Many others feel that he's being a baby, but I think just the opposite. Being a man is knowing what is most beneficial for yourself, your family, and your career and I think that he knows the best route to take. One more college season will get him even more ready to dominate the league once he gets here.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=289077


Fast forward a few months, and.....


Caniacforever on 1/6/07 said:
While you may see it that way, others may see it in a different way. I see Johnson staying in Michigan as a more selfish act. He wants to be the big man on campus for another year instead of actually having to work hard to make a team. I think he's a bit of a headcase, and some of his actions have backed that up. A few really borderline hits in bad situations, a few snippets from his quotes, and things of that nature.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=329388&page=2


Caniacforever on 1/6/07 said:
For whom exactly? Sure, he's a great prospect but he's the one who missed out on the Stanley Cup. That and all the money he's missing right now playing in college because he's scared he can't live up to his own hype. I would think if anybody had sour grapes about the situation, it certainly wouldn't be Hurricanes fans or Team Canada fans, because both did better without Johnson.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=329388


Caniacforever on 1/6/07 said:
I was excited about him as a prospect for my team. He is no longer a prospect for my team, thus I am no longer excited. I also hate the terms in which he left this team and feel it was an act of immaturity on his part that resulted in him being traded. Times change. At the time of the 2003 draft I had a "Horton #16" imposed on the back of a Hurricanes jersey and was miffed when they picked Staal ahead of him. Times change.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=329388&page=3


Caniacforever on 1/7/07 said:
I'm not. People keep quoting me and I keep responding. I knew all of this stuff about Jack Johnson while he was still property of Carolina. I'm not doing research on him anymore now that he's no longer organizational property.

Sorry, Caniac but you seem to be all over the map on this one.
 

Vagrant

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The first batch of quotes were made prior to the most recent negotiations regarding Jack Johnson. That was the point it changed. The general idea of him not wanting to sign with the team started to become more and more of a prevailent theme and the issues about his parents pulling the strings became more and more to the forefront and it made less and less sense as time went along. I'm sure provided the inclination, I could go back and find contradictory posts made on your part that were totally true to you at the time but changed as the circumstances changed. I'm sure at one point this year you could find a post of mine that said, "UGH! The Hurricanes SUCK this year", when that's likely not how I feel at all times. That's the beautiful thing about going back and looking at quotes from six months ago. Circumstances, views, and the players involved change.

I'll not go back and attempt to refute those posts because at the time, that's exactly how I felt. How can we really post aside from how we feel at the time, and that's exactly what I did. I see no inconsistancy there, I see hope that the situation isn't as dire as it looked at first glance and wanting it to work so bad that you're almost talking yourself into making the situation look reasonable. I'm just as guilty as anyone. Many Hurricanes fans were less optimistic about the Jack Johnson situation and were proven right. If anything, I was guilty of wishful thinking and attempting to bring rationality to what were apparently pretty heated talks. To the extent I was not aware of while making said posts.

I'm flattered you would take time out of your day to prove to me a point which I already know, that my opinion of Jack Johnson changed from September to January. I could have told you that without all the legwork and post searching.

I also feel obligated to tell you that every poster here has rights, and those rights include not redirecting a topic from the topic at hand to posts of a particular poster in this instance myself, and sticking to the pertinant issues in this thread. Mainly Jack Johnson vs. Marc Staal which was the intention of the thread to start with. If you wish to discuss my view of Jack Johnson any more then drop me a PM and we'll talk for as long as you want about what I think is wrong with the kid. I'm sure I could fill up your allowed limit. But unless and until you're ready to do that, we're going to let this thread carry out with the intention it was created with. The comparison of these two players.
 

Vagrant

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I'll remind those that can't refrain from personal comments that off topic posts are not welcome in the thread. If you wish to chastcize me for my views on Johnson then do it via PM and keep these petty personal issues off the boards.
 

gobolt7

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Fair warning, everybody is entitled to their opinion, and even to change their opinion if they so choose. What no one is entitled to at this site is to be attacked for their opinion. If I see anyone attacking anyone else in this thread again, I garuntee you will be hearing from me. Please think before you post. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.
 

Mr_Jones*

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Geez, I even had a good post.

Jim Rutherford is a Pejorative Slured moron who couldn't wait a year. The Jack Johnson trade will come back to haunt Carolina. Jack Johnson will be a star defenseman in the NHL. Tim Gleason probably will not. JACK JOHNSON. YEAH! Jack Johnson is a beast. Jack Johnson is awesome! He is better than Marc Staal.
 

jBuds

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The toughness of Johnson can't go unmentioned. I hate to do this, but look at the impact Phaneuf had immediately on Calgary. I expect similar things from JJ, especially learning from Rob Blake ;)
 

Randall Graves*

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Do you recall how Pronger played when he was 20 years old? Just read this, http://www.newsobserver.com/796/v-print/story/447928.html
Interesting to note that Rutherford gave up on Pronger at a young age. Wonder if we'll look back the same way with the JJ trade...
Johnson has a long way to go to ever be as good as Pronger they have a few similarities. Johnson better hope to get a coach that'll ride his ass so his defensive fundamentals improve..
 

Hunter Gathers

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Well in fairness, Pronger was traded due to a lack of vision by JR in what he saw in the player on the ice. Was it a bad move in hindsight to give up on him at such a young age? Very much so.

You know what, though? Your organization has a Cup. He's never won one. Who knows if you ever would've won a Cup with Pronger.
 

Hunter Gathers

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The toughness of Johnson can't go unmentioned. I hate to do this, but look at the impact Phaneuf had immediately on Calgary. I expect similar things from JJ, especially learning from Rob Blake ;)

The problem is with him is that he simply isn't a smart enough player on the ice to have an impact like Dion did his first year. Dion has great on ice instincts... much better than I've ever seen in JJ.
 

VOB

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Truth is that JJ should have went pro this year as his development curve has stagnated. He continues to make boneheaded plays in both ends of the ice and his aggressive style just isn't suited for the NCAA.

Staal has JJ beat on the defensive end but JJ does have better upside IMO.
 

nags

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Marc Staal. In hindsight, the dumbest thing Rutherford did about this situation was draft Johnson ahead of Staal. Staal would be a perfect fit for what we're trying to do. I think Jack Johnson has the higher upside, but Marc Staal is virtually bust proof with the style of game that he plays. Very cerebral and can play in any situation.

I agree. JJ should have done his homework and realized that he would be going to one of the smartest defensive coaches in all of hockey.

There is one guy the Hurricanes have refused to let go through the years, and that guy is Kevin McCarthy. JJ missed a huge opportunity to learn from one of the best.
 

Hunter Gathers

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Truth is that JJ should have went pro this year as his development curve has stagnated. He continues to make boneheaded plays in both ends of the ice and his aggressive style just isn't suited for the NCAA.

Staal has JJ beat on the defensive end but JJ does have better upside IMO.

This is VERY true and, IMO, it's a real shame. While I didn't give him **** for staying in school, and honestly I think it's very noble of him, I see now what it really has done to his game.

The sooner he's out of school, the better.
 

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