Marc Bergevin to meet with media before Vancouver game - 5:15pm EST

[Habs Halifax]

Drouin may not be close to Gomez, but even trading an elite defender for someone inferior is something that Habs fans know all to well. This would be the third time in less then a decade.

Retract it a bit more than "may not be close". Comparing Drouin (age 22) to Gomez (age 29) and payed much more is not even close!

 

[Tighthead]

Two things to consider. There are more but I will keep it simple for you.

1) Taxes differences between cities are known knowledge. Check out this site, it shows you the difference between cities ( Personal Income Tax Rates in NHL Cities | Gavin Group ). In Subban's case, he cleared an extra $1.3M annually playing with the Preds.

2) In the above case with Subban... Imagine how much more the Accountant can make Subban with a $1.3M annual advantage . The accountant in Montreal would have to be a genius to overcome this advantage

So you agree that your argument is based entirely on tax rates you look up online, with no consideration for advanced strategies available in each jurisdiction (state or province, not city)

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think my point is going over your head and this is not an attempt to belittle you. The things an accountant can do for you are very similar from city to city... But that depends how much taxes you have to work around between the cities.

Does that help?

 

[Tighthead]

I think my point is going over your head if you don't understand it.

Don’t flatter yourself tax expert. That is a pathetic post. Are t you the one suggesting people deal in facts?

I know my point on could of, should of and would of goes clear over your head every time. Agree?

 

[Habs Halifax]

So you agree that your argument is based entirely on tax rates you look up online, with no consideration for advanced strategies available in each jurisdiction (state or province, not city)

No, I didn't say it's entirely on tax rates. I said the tax rate is the biggest factor. Get it right before you spin this against me later please

 

[nhlfan9191]

Retract it a bit more than "may not be close". Comparing Drouin (age 22) to Gomez (age 29) and payed much more is not even close!

That wasn’t the point of the post. It wasn’t a Drouin vs Gomez comparison. It’s the fact we keep gift wrapping teams elite talent while we don’t get the same in return.

 

[Habs Halifax]

That wasn’t the point of the post. It wasn’t a Drouin vs Gomez comparison. It’s the fact we keep gift wrapping teams elite talent while we don’t get the same in return.

Well, you said the Drouin trade will be as bad as the Gomez trade (or something like that). It's a bad comparison IMO and it's more evidence of negative propaganda. Gomez should not be part of the Drouin evaluation. Those trades are not the same and there is a massive age gap and difference in salary/term

 

[Tighthead]

I think my point is going over your head and this is not an attempt to belittle you. The things an accountant can do for you are very similar from city to city... But that depends how much taxes you have to work around between the cities.

Does that help?

You keep talking about cities, which have no jurisdiction over income tax.

How would you know how similar the tax codes are in Pennsylvania, Florida and Alberta and the various strategies available to high earners? What are your qualifications beyond google?

 

[Tighthead]

No, I didn't say it's entirely on tax rates. I said the tax rate is the biggest factor. Get it right before you spin this against me later please

But the post I quoted and the argument you made were based solely on tax rates.

If I’m wrong cite and explain what tax shelters and strategies you were considering.

 

[isthatso]

Drouin will hurt as bad as Gomez.... that is the comeback we get. What a joke! They are running out of excuses and it's getting hilarious.

Nice one liner you've got there.

I think my point is going over your head and this is not an attempt to belittle you. The things an accountant can do for you are very similar from city to city... But that depends how much taxes you have to work around between the cities.

Does that help?

You have made quite a bit of comments trying to belittle him, regardless of if he is right or wrong. Condescending remarks and all. You are free to do so, within the limits of respectful, but don't try to play it like your the nice one around here.

I do work with a lot of high profile accountants and I too believe that you don't quite know the full extent of what you are talking about. Even though your excuse is trying to make this as simple as possible for him...

That is the same debacle like the Subban donation. One side says he did for tax cut reasons, the other side claimed it was 100% out of good heart. The truth is much more nuanced than that.

Do Montreal players end up with less net income than some players. Sure. Is that margin as big as some want to believe? Not even close.

I mean, buy a house in Forida when the market is favorable, sell it back when you can and that would cover whatever gap they have. It can be that small. Hockey players are usually investing their money and making quite a bit of extras out of that. Let alone sponsorship. Radulov got 6.25M and I am pretty sure that the equivalent would have been closer to 6.75 than the 8M some people are spitting around.

Let's say 7M to really be bulletproof. After that, it comes to management decisions. Radu at 7M or Alzner and scrubs for 6-6.5? For those saying that term will be the problem, Alzner have the same disastrous terms.

 

[Sorinth]

I think the plan was originally to use Galchenyuk as a center but a number of circumstances changed that for the worse.

1) - The lockout: If half the NHL season doesn't get locked out than I have my doubts that Galchenyuk would have made the team. He'd have another full season developing at center with Sarnia. Hindsight probably tells us that would have been a better path to a full time center position.

2) - Winning the division in 2012-13: It created expectations. We all of a sudden went from a team that was rebuilding to a team that was on the brink of success. We were Canada's next cup. We have a Norris winner in Subban. We had an elite scorer in Pacioretty. We had top 6 centers in Plekanec and Desharnais.

3) - Conferance Finals in 2013-14: Coming into the season we were favorites. But we had holes on the wing. Desharnais wasn't suited for the wing and we weren't moving Pleks. In Desharnais' defence, he had a good year. So we kept Galchenyuk on the wing for another year. Short term we were probably best suited for him to be on the wing. Our success' and the expectations that they created became our worst enemy. We have a bad regular season, hope that maybe there will be some change... and Boom, we get hot in the playoffs. Conferance Final run. And the vicious cycle continues.

4) - Another Division Title 2014-15 (le sigh) : Again we are Canada's hope. Experts are predicting we are going to have a legit shot. And we actually look like it. Pretty convincing season. We need Galchenyuk's offence, but our best top 6 has him on the wing still. Desharnais is productive. Plekanec is productive. Again, his conversion to center gets delayed. Again in the short term it probably is for the best. Again it doesn't get us anywhere.

So here we are today. Hindsight wishes we just put Galchenyuk to center. Circumstances kept him on the wing. I 100% believe that had we missed the playoffs again post lockout, had Galchenyuk played a full season in Sarnia, had we gone into that 2013-14 season still "rebuilding" that Galchenyuk would have come into the league and played center right away. Unfortunately the pressure of the teams success and expectations got the better of the team. We entered a win now mode and we are feeling it now.

So do I think that the team drafted him to be a Center? Absolutely. But I think with all the successes the team was having, they just got too comfortable with him on the wing. Took their minds off the long term for a minute and now we are feeling it.

What you call circumstances were simply bad decisions which we didn't even need hindsight to know they were bad.

In 2012-2013 Galchenyuk played 14 out of the first 15 games as center. This was the moment Therrien decided Galchenyuk wasn't ready to be center and almost permanently moved him to wing.

The production of our centers at that time was
Plekanec: 13 points playing mostly with Gionta & Bourque
Galchenyuk: 9 points playing mostly with Gallagher & Prust
Desharnais: 7 points playing mostly with Pacioretty & Cole
Eller: 6 points playing mostly with Moen and Armstrong

So claiming that we used Galchenyuk at wing because of expectations, or being focused on the short term is complete BS. Galchenyuk was the better player even as a rookie. But Therrien either didn't like Galchenyuk or loved Desharnais so much that nothing would change his mind.

Despite playing on the 1st line Desharnais was outproduced by both our 2nd and 3rd line centers that year. It was clear as day that he wasn't capable of being a regular top-6 player and that Galchenyuk was the better player. And if that season wasn't enough, Desharnais proceeded to put up 1 point in 19 games yet we refused to give Galchenyuk a chance at center during that horrible slump. How can you claim short term we couldn't play Galchenyuk at wing when our #1 center produces 1 point in 19 games?

If we were actually only concerned about short term success like you are claiming then we would have played Galchenyuk at center because he was our 2nd best center behind only Plekanec, and had the potential to be way better. But we didn't actually focus on short term success we focused on trying to get the most out of Desharnais so no matter how bad Desharnais was he was locked into that #1 spot, and because we used him as our #1 guy we needed both Plekanec and Eller to cover the defensive side of things because of how bad Desharnais was.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You keep talking about cities, which have no jurisdiction over income tax.

How would you know how similar the tax codes are in Pennsylvania, Florida and Alberta and the various strategies available to high earners? What are your qualifications beyond google?

So are you saying that site is not credible?

 

[Habs Halifax]

But the post I quoted and the argument you made were based solely on tax rates.

If I’m wrong cite and explain what tax shelters and strategies you were considering.

I already told you... I said taxes are the biggest factor but there are other factors. How many times do I have to tell you? Or are you just interested in pinning down someone into something they didn't say?

 

[Price is Wright]

Well, you said the Drouin trade will be as bad as the Gomez trade (or something like that). It's a bad comparison IMO and it's more evidence of negative propaganda. Gomez should not be part of the Drouin evaluation. Those trades are not the same and there is a massive age gap and difference in salary/term

Habs got 222 games out of Gomez for 126 points. They also got an improved player relations with free agents and a great website campaign out of him being unable to score a goal. The contract wasn't so bad because of the lockout buyout. Rangers got 601 games so far out of McDonaugh, 271 points, and a captain. Valentenko, Higgins, etc. don't really matter.

The Sergachev/Drouin trade will be evaluated similarily. If Drouin spends three years in Montreal and because he's forced to be a centre, eventually burns out and gets traded, then yeah it'll be just as bad as the Gomez trade.

 

[Tighthead]

So are you saying that site is not credible?

I’m saying that it is solely based on tax rates. It is credible for what it offers but it does not explain the optimal tax treatment for NHLers in each jurisdiction.

 

[Tighthead]

I think my point is going over your head and this is not an attempt to belittle you. The things an accountant can do for you are very similar from city to city... But that depends how much taxes you have to work around between the cities.

Does that help?

Considering I have worked for years in estate planning, let’s assume it’s not going over my head.

 

[angry pirate]

You keep talking about cities, which have no jurisdiction over income tax.

How would you know how similar the tax codes are in Pennsylvania, Florida and Alberta and the various strategies available to high earners? What are your qualifications beyond google?

That's actually not true.

"I think at the major league level there are 21 states" that levy jock taxes, Packard says. "If you include the minor leagues it's upwards of 30. Then you have a bunch of localities like Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Kansas City, St. Louis." He pauses and looks at a list on the wall near his desk. "That's my cheat sheet," he says before adding Detroit, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh to his list of cities that assess jock taxes.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2015/04/13/tax-day-april-15-accountant-pro-athletes/25742385/

 

[Tighthead]

I already told you... I said taxes are the biggest factor but there are other factors. How many times do I have to tell you? Or are you just interested in pinning down someone into something they didn't say?

So you admit there are other factors, and you have no knowledge of them and are ignoring them entirely. Yet you still no more than a prominent player agent.

 

[Tighthead]

That's actually not true.

"I think at the major league level there are 21 states" that levy jock taxes, Packard says. "If you include the minor leagues it's upwards of 30. Then you have a bunch of localities like Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Kansas City, St. Louis." He pauses and looks at a list on the wall near his desk. "That's my cheat sheet," he says before adding Detroit, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh to his list of cities that assess jock taxes.

Tax season quite taxing for professional athletes

That’s a good point, but I don’t think those city taxes have any shelters , write offs or anything - they are a straight tariff.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Well, you said the Drouin trade will be as bad as the Gomez trade (or something like that). It's a bad comparison IMO and it's more evidence of negative propaganda. Gomez should not be part of the Drouin evaluation. Those trades are not the same and there is a massive age gap and difference in salary/term

What are you talking about? Negative propaganda? I specifically said Drouin as a return isn’t as bad. I didn’t mention Gomez at all. It doesn’t matter if Drouin isn’t as bad as Gomez, he’s an admitted winger filling a hole out of need coming straight from Bergevin’s mouth. Defenceman with elite potential are a lot harder to find then wingers just like Centers are much harder to find. Sergachev was one of the only pieces that we had that could’ve been bundled to get us a center and he was traded away for a winger. Bergevin is a victim of himself and only you and a very small group of people refuse to call it like it is. Has nothing to do with creating negative propaganda. If he wasn’t doing such a horrible job and driving the team in the ground, I would have no reason to say anything bad about him.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Dial it back with the personal stuff guys.

 

[Roke]

I mean, buy a house in Forida when the market is favorable, sell it back when you can and that would cover whatever gap they have. It can be that small. Hockey players are usually investing their money and making quite a bit of extras out of that. Let alone sponsorship. Radulov got 6.25M and I am pretty sure that the equivalent would have been closer to 6.75 than the 8M some people are spitting around.

Owning a house in Canada is actually a pretty big tax advantage if it's your principal residence. The principal residence exemption means you don't pay any tax on the gains when you sell it and unlike the US with their similar policy ours is uncapped (for now).

 

[Habs Halifax]

Nice one liner you've got there.



You have made quite a bit of comments trying to belittle him, regardless of if he is right or wrong. Condescending remarks and all. You are free to do so, within the limits of respectful, but don't try to play it like your the nice one around here.

I do work with a lot of high profile accountants and I too believe that you don't quite know the full extent of what you are talking about. Even though your excuse is trying to make this as simple as possible for him...

That is the same debacle like the Subban donation. One side says he did for tax cut reasons, the other side claimed it was 100% out of good heart. The truth is much more nuanced than that.

Do Montreal players end up with less net income than some players. Sure. Is that margin as big as some want to believe? Not even close.

I mean, buy a house in Forida when the market is favorable, sell it back when you can and that would cover whatever gap they have. It can be that small. Hockey players are usually investing their money and making quite a bit of extras out of that. Let alone sponsorship. Radulov got 6.25M and I am pretty sure that the equivalent would have been closer to 6.75 than the 8M some people are spitting around.

It is a nice one liner. I am allowed them from time to time right? How about you talk about the Gomez vs Drouin trades? Where do you stand on it?

So you "work" with a lot of high profile accountants so that makes you an expert over me? How about my experience with working with accountants that handle a multi million dollar pension at my office where I work with? I know nothing cause you know everything? I never had this conversation with an actual accountant right?

All I am saying is taxes are known knowledge and accountants can do many things. The things accountants can do are similar from city to city but they are limited due to the tax difference between those cities. It not rocket science.

- Sponsorship deals exist in all cities

- What a Account can do to offset taxes exist in all cities. Difference is taxes are different in all cities so the starting point is different. Understand?

- Being paid in USD and living in Canada is also a factor. Hard to say how this is a factor and depends on the player. However, at the end of the day, the players are not spending all of their annual money each year. They are spending a small fraction of it... And yes, I am talking about the elite level players more than the bottom fringe NHL players.

 

[DAChampion]

Given that Bergevin wanted to win now, he should have offered 5 years * 7.5 million/year to Radulov.

Instead he treated Russian players like dogs, so he's going to be fired.

Good.

 

[DAChampion]

It is a nice one liner. I am allowed them from time to time right? How about you talk about the Gomez vs Drouin trades? Where do you stand on it?

So you "work" with a lot of high profile accountants so that makes you an expert over me? All I am saying is taxes are known knowledge and accountants can do many things. The things accountants can do are similar from city to city but they are limited due to the tax difference between those cities. It not rocket science.

- Sponsorship deals exist in all cities.

- What a Account can do to offset taxes exist in all cities. Difference is taxes are different in all cities so the starting point is different. Understand?

Is "known knowledge" a redundancy?