Marc Bergevin: Real Madrid ne font pas les séries ou va pas au Mondial Edition

What do you want to do with Bergevin?

  • Should be to be fired

  • Be patient

  • Keep him is doing a good job


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Grate n Colorful Oz

Hutson Hawk
Jun 12, 2007
35,310
32,163
Hockey Mecca
Gauthier is a lot worse than you're claiming. He was in charge of pro scouting in his assistant GM tenure. He's responsible for Gomez, Niinimaa and others. It doesn't help he traded Cammalleri and Ramo and a 5th for Bourque, Holland and a 2nd. Just a flat out mistake. The kostitsyn and Gill deadline deals were good although I question how getting 2 2nds, slaney and geoffrion for gill and kostitsyn combined is that much more noteworthy than getting Rychel, Valiev and a 2nd for Plekanec alone.

The last legitimate GM this team has was Gainey. He had a vision, he restocked the prospect cupboard and our drafting was the best during his reign. The problem is how he ended things before passing the torch. Some of it may have been impacted by the news of his daughter but regardless it wasn't very promising.

MB has just failed to do anything substantial in the positive direction. 200% mediocre, no improvements, no elite drafting, no elite trading, nothing. He's got to go.

I hope the next GM is like Gainey prior to the end but maybe a little more aggressive.

That's why i'd want Julien B.. he was schooled by Gainey and Yzerman. He'd be a lot more progressive than Bargainbrain.
 

Roke

Registered User
Jul 21, 2003
2,607
669
Winnipeg
That's why i'd want Julien B.. he was schooled by Gainey and Yzerman. He'd be a lot more progressive than Bargainbrain.

He wouldn't be my first choice but the most appealing thing about Brisebois to me is he's had an education and career outside the hockey world. In a business so insular and incestuous that's probably a big advantage.

We've seen what happens in other sports when outsiders come in and are allowed to run teams - they tend to be better than the old-school guys, at least until all the mediocre guys riding on their connections are washed out.
 

OneSharpMarble

Registered User
Oct 30, 2007
10,579
262
Calgary
Gauthier is a lot worse than you're claiming. He was in charge of pro scouting in his assistant GM tenure. He's responsible for Gomez, Niinimaa and others. It doesn't help he traded Cammalleri and Ramo and a 5th for Bourque, Holland and a 2nd. Just a flat out mistake. The kostitsyn and Gill deadline deals were good although I question how getting 2 2nds, slaney and geoffrion for gill and kostitsyn combined is that much more noteworthy than getting Rychel, Valiev and a 2nd for Plekanec alone.

The last legitimate GM this team has was Gainey. He had a vision, he restocked the prospect cupboard and our drafting was the best during his reign. The problem is how he ended things before passing the torch. Some of it may have been impacted by the news of his daughter but regardless it wasn't very promising.

MB has just failed to do anything substantial in the positive direction. 200% mediocre, no improvements, no elite drafting, no elite trading, nothing. He's got to go.

I hope the next GM is like Gainey prior to the end but maybe a little more aggressive.

Ahh this brings back memories. Everything that Gainey ever did wasn't his fault if it was bad, if it turned out good he was a silent genius! The man could do no wrong, how graced we were to have such an incredible GM leading the Habs to horrendous loss after horrendous loss. The Habs truly became irrelevant under his watch and then he abandoned ship after making sure he set the franchise back years with the worst contracts in the league.

The current GM is just like Gainey, terrible at trading and a very long list of excuses. MB is great at finding 3rd liners just like Gainey but for some reason can't seem to find scorers or fix our #1 centre problem but i'm sure that isn't his fault either right guys? Who is the current stooge in charge of pro scouting? Let's blame that guy.
 

Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
20,339
13,876
He is though. Dubas got it because Shanny has been grooming him for years.

What? Dubas has always known more about analytics, contracts and scouting than Shanahan. Shanahan knows the NHL game and people better. But Shanahan wasn't grooming Dubas at all. He gave him the opportunity to gain experience. But Hunter was also auditioning for the GM role as well and he lost out.

Dubas is the one that incorporates data anlysis in decision making. When Dubas ran Toronto's draft table in 2016 they traded back to optimize pick value and picked up guys that had more skill like Bracco and Dermott. When Hunter and Lou ran the tables in 2016 and 2017 they took obvious picks in the 1st round and then reached for bigger, physical guys (Korshkov, Rasanen). Hunter though more similarly to Lou, Dubas was the new age thinker. That's the position of Shanahan, the pro-Dubas media and the pro-Hunter media.

Hunter may be a very good scout and is very well connected, but he's not a departure from the norm.

Dubas may fail as a GM because there's much more to being a manager than philosophy, but he's the the new age thinker.
 
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LyricalLyricist

Registered User
Aug 21, 2007
37,909
5,814
Montreal
Ahh this brings back memories. Everything that Gainey ever did wasn't his fault if it was bad, if it turned out good he was a silent genius! The man could do no wrong, how graced we were to have such an incredible GM leading the Habs to horrendous loss after horrendous loss. The Habs truly became irrelevant under his watch and then he abandoned ship after making sure he set the franchise back years with the worst contracts in the league.

The current GM is just like Gainey, terrible at trading and a very long list of excuses. MB is great at finding 3rd liners just like Gainey but for some reason can't seem to find scorers or fix our #1 centre problem but i'm sure that isn't his fault either right guys? Who is the current stooge in charge of pro scouting? Let's blame that guy.

Gainey is better than MB and gaineys biggest issues were he was too patient and his end. Both of which I addressed.
 

LyricalLyricist

Registered User
Aug 21, 2007
37,909
5,814
Montreal
so is Chiarelli, so your statement doesn't mean much

being better than MB doesn't qualify you for being good, it qualifies you for being better than a wet fart

Gainey is still best 3 of last 3. My point remains. He did good but could never close on last piece we needed, not unlike MB.

I’d want a guy who can have that leadership, knowledge, vision but also be more aggressive to address the lack of execution Gainey and others had.

Example: 2 decades of no 1st line C, a core building block. I’d rather a GM isn’t afraid to overpay a little to overcome status quo.
 

Tabarouette

ben kin
Jan 28, 2013
14,775
4,335
mtl
Gainey is still best 3 of last 3. My point remains. He did good but could never close on last piece we needed, not unlike MB.

I’d want a guy who can have that leadership, knowledge, vision but also be more aggressive to address the lack of execution Gainey and others had.

Example: 2 decades of no 1st line C, a core building block. I’d rather a GM isn’t afraid to overpay a little to overcome status quo.

I guess I agree? idk

eventho I think you're right, i'd rather just forget about all 3 and dream of a GREAT GM instead of a passable one for once. I'm not really interested in having a slightly better version of Gainey just because it's better than the last 2... I want an Yzerman or a Poile or whatever. I want the best GM in the league period and I won't really be satisfied with anything less at this point

And that being said i'm still fairly sure we're getting Roy next year so i'll probably stop watching hockey
 

The Gr8 Dane

L'harceleur
Jan 19, 2018
10,814
20,575
Montreal
I guess I agree? idk

eventho I think you're right, i'd rather just forget about all 3 and dream of a GREAT GM instead of a passable one for once. I'm not really interested in having a slightly better version of Gainey just because it's better than the last 2... I want an Yzerman or a Poile or whatever. I want the best GM in the league period and I won't really be satisfied with anything less at this point

And that being said i'm still fairly sure we're getting Roy next year so i'll probably stop watching hockey

Roy as Gm and I'm done. What a disaster this franchise is
 

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
Not exactly. Given the year the prospect of a good playoff run was important and generated money.

Selling would've not paid Gainey's salary.

Tough position given the hype.

Well if Gillett was bleeding money dry than it's a different story, but really, it never felt like he did.
They were a cap spending team. They bought out players if needed. They didn't cut anything at the Bell Center or make crazy price raises. But maybe he did.
In any event, it happened on multiple occasion. It shouldn't have.
 
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DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
29,782
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If you read the last few pages of the lightnings gdt. A bunch are saying Sergachev is an untouchable and two are even saying he'll be better than Hedman.

Nice.

They might just be as bad as we are in operating young players.

Have we not had fans here declare Victor Mete to be an untouchable?
 

DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
29,782
20,934
What? Dubas has always known more about analytics, contracts and scouting than Shanahan. Shanahan knows the NHL game and people better. But Shanahan wasn't grooming Dubas at all. He gave him the opportunity to gain experience. But Hunter was also auditioning for the GM role as well and he lost out.

Dubas is the one that incorporates data anlysis in decision making. When Dubas ran Toronto's draft table in 2016 they traded back to optimize pick value and picked up guys that had more skill like Bracco and Dermott. When Hunter and Lou ran the tables in 2016 and 2017 they took obvious picks in the 1st round and then reached for bigger, physical guys (Korshkov, Rasanen). Hunter though more similarly to Lou, Dubas was the new age thinker. That's the position of Shanahan, the pro-Dubas media and the pro-Hunter media.

Hunter may be a very good scout and is very well connected, but he's not a departure from the norm.

Dubas may fail as a GM because there's much more to being a manager than philosophy, but he's the the new age thinker.

Toronto is in a strange and difficult position development wise.

They did a proper sell, tank, and rebuild. They had the courage that Montreal management has never had in selling Phaneuf and Kessel to the highest bidder. They got some great players at the draft table.

However, they're not good enough. They're just short. Auston Matthews was good enough to end their tank, and they're no longer drafting high. But this core has two 1st round losses two years in a row, and the division is now a lot stronger than it was when the Habs were coming in 1st. Tampa Bay and Boston have good teams, and other teams such as Buffalo, Detroit, and Florida might improve soon.

Toronto still needs to improve some more if they want to make noise and genuinely compete, but the tanking option is closed to them. They will need to do well on some combination of the UFA market, the trade market, and in their drafting and development of non-lottery picks. Admittedly, I don't know how strong their farm system is right now. If their recent non-lottery picks have been developing nicely, then that may be enough by itself.

They have a smart management, so I look forward to seeing how they adapt.
 

Miller Time

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
22,837
15,037
Toronto is in a strange and difficult position development wise.

They did a proper sell, tank, and rebuild. They had the courage that Montreal management has never had in selling Phaneuf and Kessel to the highest bidder. They got some great players at the draft table.

However, they're not good enough. They're just short. Auston Matthews was good enough to end their tank, and they're no longer drafting high. But this core has two 1st round losses two years in a row, and the division is now a lot stronger than it was when the Habs were coming in 1st. Tampa Bay and Boston have good teams, and other teams such as Buffalo, Detroit, and Florida might improve soon.

Toronto still needs to improve some more if they want to make noise and genuinely compete, but the tanking option is closed to them. They will need to do well on some combination of the UFA market, the trade market, and in their drafting and development of non-lottery picks. Admittedly, I don't know how strong their farm system is right now. If their recent non-lottery picks have been developing nicely, then that may be enough by itself.

They have a smart management, so I look forward to seeing how they adapt.

or, the core of great young talent they assembled might continue to improve...

looking at their last two PO 1st round exits and concluding that their core is somehow in trouble or stagnating ignores the simple reality that it is incredibly young.

They finished tied for 3rd in the EC and 7th in the league, despite (and because of) their top 3 scorers being 20, 19, 21... their top dman, 23.

I'd say their core is incredibly well positioned, especially when you add that their AHL team has finished 1st overall 2 of the last 3 years (and is 1 win away from the calder cup, with a team that 16 of the top 20 scorers and their dominant #1 goalie are 25 & under).

They are loaded to go on a run of contending that will be very sustainable... how well they do on the UFA/Trade market and ongoing drafting & development will determine how long they can sustain it (and their success in building this wealth of assets under Shanahan certainly bodes favorably), but I think we've only just seen the tip of the iceberg of what this current core can do as it goes from overachieving rookies/young players to proven/experienced "vets".
 
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DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
29,782
20,934
or, the core of great young talent they assembled might continue to improve...

looking at their last two PO 1st round exits and concluding that their core is somehow in trouble or stagnating ignores the simple reality that it is incredibly young.

They finished tied for 3rd in the EC and 7th in the league, despite (and because of) their top 3 scorers being 20, 19, 21... their top dman, 23.

I'd say their core is incredibly well positioned, especially when you add that their AHL team has finished 1st overall 2 of the last 3 years (and is 1 win away from the calder cup, with a team that 16 of the top 20 scorers and their dominant #1 goalie are 25 & under).

They are loaded to go on a run of contending that will be very sustainable... how well they do on the UFA/Trade market and ongoing drafting & development will determine how long they can sustain it (and their success in building this wealth of assets under Shanahan certainly bodes favorably), but I think we've only just seen the tip of the iceberg of what this current core can do as it goes from overachieving rookies/young players to proven/experienced "vets".

Toronto might improve, sure, but they need to improve by a lot. As before, this isn't the same weak Atlantic division that the Habs used to win in the early Bergevin years. The division is a little stronger now, as Boston and Tampa Bay are genuinely good teams. Buffalo has good potential as well, they're about to add Dahlin.

Your point about their AHL team and their improved drafting has merit. I'm honestly not as familiar with those areas. If those statements are very true, then the next decade should be a very bright one for the Maple Leafs.
 

Miller Time

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
22,837
15,037
Toronto might improve, sure, but they need to improve by a lot. As before, this isn't the same weak Atlantic division that the Habs used to win in the early Bergevin years. The division is a little stronger now, as Boston and Tampa Bay are genuinely good teams. Buffalo has good potential as well, they're about to add Dahlin.

Your point about their AHL team and their improved drafting has merit. I'm honestly not as familiar with those areas. If those statements are very true, then the next decade should be a very bright one for the Maple Leafs.
I'm not so sure they need to improve more than the expected progression of their core.

Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Reilly are among the top under 25 players in the league, let alone the conference, and they have a very solid, young, supporting cast in place + ownership willing to spend and management with proven competence.

Like I said, they've got all the right pieces in place, at this point they'd need to pull a Bergevin to screw this up.
 

lo striver

Registered User
Jun 13, 2011
4,001
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Our Lady of Grace
It's weird watching Real Madrid play in the most prestigious club competition in the World after BargainBin compared their disappointing season to the Habs this year.

and Real Madrid win. 25 years and counting for us...
fourth win in the last 5 years for RM. it is sad to see how this clown compares Habs&RM or Alzner&Chara and doesn't get destroyed for that by the journos.
 
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