Post-Game Talk: Mantha is on pace for 246 points

[Ezekial]

Here's the only gif I could make of the Coyle spear to Helm's junk after the hip check. They had a closer up replay on NBCSN but it wasn't on youtube.

 

[joe89]

I hope Nyquist can get the hockey gods on his side again. There's absolutely no reason he shouldn't score 20+ goals. That, Larkin going back to his rookie ways and Mantha taking off would be a good start for this team to trend in the right direction.

 

[Frk It]

Didn't realize Mantha only got 13:18 last night, and Larkin only got 15:04. Considering they both scored, hopefully that gets bumped up a little.

3rd line seemed to play quite a bit more than the 2nd line, maybe that was to protect the lead, not sure.

Frk had 2 pts in only 10:30... EFFICIENCY!

I hope Nyquist can get the hockey gods on his side again. There's absolutely no reason he shouldn't score 20+ goals. That, Larkin going back to his rookie ways and Mantha taking off would be a good start for this team to trend in the right direction.

Nyquist really should have had a multi-point game. He got robbed by Dubnyk, but he also could have maybe done a better job of waiting him out.

If he continues to play 17 minutes a night on the top line with Z, shouldn't have a problem producing.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

One thing I noticed was Goose was pretty fast out there. Played too much on the perimeter, but did make some plays happen.

I think there are only two defensemen on the team I actually like right now. DK is hilariously weak on the puck and Ericsson is right behind him.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Love your sarcasm here, Jimmy doesn't even have the worst contract on the team. Let alone in the entire NHL.

Maybe he exaggerated a little bit... but I do remember over and over and over people bemoaning that as certainly one of the worst. Even as I defended it by saying it's not actually a terrible contract, it just looks worse in retrospect because Petr caught a rocketship in his development and he was in Detroit as the number one a full year and a half ahead of schedule.

I'm sure the Wings original plan in 13 when they signed Jimmy was l2016 to be Petr's first being the sole backup/pushing for playing time. Not him already having 1.5 seasons of being the top guy heading into it.

 

[Heaton]

There's plenty of contracts worse than Howard, but any goalie making more than 4m a season is a bad contract, I don't care who it is.

 

[Flowah]

There's plenty of contracts worse than Howard, but any goalie making more than 4m a season is a bad contract, I don't care who it is.

I mean. I'd sign up for Price at $5M. I think that's a great deal.

But most of the time I agree that putting money into goalies as opposed to skaters is a bad idea. Would 100x rather an elite defensemen or center than goalie.

 

[Frk It]

Maybe he exaggerated a little bit... but I do remember over and over and over people bemoaning that as certainly one of the worst. Even as I defended it by saying it's not actually a terrible contract, it just looks worse in retrospect because Petr caught a rocketship in his development and he was in Detroit as the number one a full year and a half ahead of schedule.

I'm sure the Wings original plan in 13 when they signed Jimmy was l2016 to be Petr's first being the sole backup/pushing for playing time. Not him already having 1.5 seasons of being the top guy heading into it.

Mrazek was dominating every level he played at and international tournaments... not sure why that was hard to see... they shouldn't have just assumed over-ripening for all prospects and all scenarios.

I do give them a pass for Howard's injury issues, though.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

There's plenty of contracts worse than Howard, but any goalie making more than 4m a season is a bad contract, I don't care who it is.

The Wings have definitely shown in the past that you can go far with solid but not elite goaltending and spend money in other places.

 

[HockeyinHD]

If by doing it right you mean trying to be petty and stir shot then yes you are if not a bit too obvious. Solid 6/10

Yeah, the people doing the '82-0' stuff are totally not being petty and stirring anything up. Heh.

Anyway, the game was interesting. Not that this is news, but the team is wildly better when pushing play because when they sit back their mediocre dmen tend to crumble under a sustained forecheck. Thought Daley looked pretty good out there, and the young forwards looked quick, which is always nice to see. Nyquist has continued his career of not cashing in on glorious chances, and Howard has continued his career of making not close games closer than they should have been.

All in all, hey, it was a fairly fun game (although it sure seemed like there were a lot of empty seats). Very happy to have hockey back.

 

[Oddbob]

I thought the first half of the game, was like watching last years games (dull and boring). Then they stopped waiting to be scored on, and the played quite well, and the game was a ton more fun to watch. Mantha, Larkin, Zetterberg, Helm and Howard all looked really good, as did Green. That save on Nyquist by Dubnyk was awesome, and reminded me of old school hockey. Loved it, eventhough it was against us! We definitely can't stay in our own zone with our defencemen, as like I said, it is like we are just waiting to give up a goal.

 

[Winger98]

The Wings have definitely shown in the past that you can go far with solid but not elite goaltending and spend money in other places.

To build off this a bit, there were thirty goalies who played 30+ games and rocked a .910% or better save percentage. Finding a goalie who isn't lousy isn't the hardest thing in the league, and those average goalies look better when you put better teams in front of them. Goalie seems like one of those ideal positions to go with either the kid or the reclamation project because decent goalies in their mid20s start demanding the sort of money where there are diminishing returns (outside of having a guy like Carey Price).

 

[Shoalzie]

There's plenty of contracts worse than Howard, but any goalie making more than 4m a season is a bad contract, I don't care who it is.

Name a good veteran (28 and over) goalie that is paid less than $4 million? You aren't getting a goalie at the price unless you're signing a guy like Talbot or Darling that hasn't been a full time starter.

Mrazek at $4 million compared a guy like Gibson getting $2.3 million. That's your bad value in goal.

How many good value signings has Holland made in the last handful of seasons? Tatar's new deal? There's not many.

 

[Oddbob]

Gibson's next contract is also going to be a big one.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Is Larkin gonna have a big year? Drafted him last year in fantasy and hoping it pays off? Tx for any info

 

[Heaton]

Name a good veteran (28 and over) goalie that is paid less than $4 million? You aren't getting a goalie at the price unless you're signing a guy like Talbot or Darling that hasn't been a full time starter.

Mrazek at $4 million compared a guy like Gibson getting $2.3 million. That's your bad value in goal.

How many good value signings has Holland made in the last handful of seasons? Tatar's new deal? There's not many.

Just because virtually every team does it doesn't mean it's a good idea. It ties up too much money into a volatile position that rarely pays off. Has Howard 'earned' his contract? Has Rinne? Rask? Lundqvist? I don't think any of the 7m+ goalies have done anything close to earning it. I think a lot of skaters who make that much have earned it though.

 

[ricky0034]

There's plenty of contracts worse than Howard, but any goalie making more than 4m a season is a bad contract, I don't care who it is.

4m?

that sounds really extreme when you look at what 4m can get you in other positions,you'd be hard pressed even finding a decent 2nd liner for that amount

you seriously don't think the best goalies deserve more money than guys like freaking Justin Abdelkader,Troy Brouwer,Michael Frolik and so on? because that's the sort of thing 4 million gets you

 

[Heaton]

4m?

that sounds really extreme when you look at what 4m can get you in other positions,you'd be hard pressed even finding a decent 2nd liner for that amount

you seriously don't think the best goalies deserve more money than guys like freaking Justin Abdelkader,Troy Brouwer,Michael Frolik and so on? because that's the sort of thing 4 million gets you

Players deserve whatever they can get. I just don't think the goaltending position is worth investing a large portion of the cap into when it rarely pays off. Who's the last big money goalie to win a cup? Crawford at 6m? Does anyone think the goalies making 7m a year are going to win a cup?

Look, what my opinion is isn't ever going to be a reality and probably isn't feasible, but the bottom line is Howard makes 5m/yr and is most likely good to miss 10-20 games a year which could completely torpedo a season. If Abdelkader makes 4m and misses 10 games, it's not going to have the same impact. I'd rather not invest too much cap into a goalie where if they get injured it doesn't mean the team is completely screwed because the rest of the skaters can't make up for it.

 

[joe89]

Just because virtually every team does it doesn't mean it's a good idea. It ties up too much money into a volatile position that rarely pays off. Has Howard 'earned' his contract? Has Rinne? Rask? Lundqvist? I don't think any of the 7m+ goalies have done anything close to earning it. I think a lot of skaters who make that much have earned it though.

Hard to draw the line for what is too much, but I certainly don't think winning the cup or vezina is the only criteria to make that judgement. Consistency is probably what I'd be looking at, peace of mind knowing that you will get solid goaltending is IMO worth paying for. Any club's biggest fear is missing the playoffs altogether, and a great player no matter the position, but great goalies in particular, are a safety net for being good. I agree it's easier for a forward to earn it, harder for a defenseman, and hardest for a goalie. But not totally black and white.

Lundqvist has probably carried Rangers to the playoffs close to a handful of times in his career , so in that context he's clearly earned it. I can't think of much bigger team carries anyway in recent history, maybe Karlsson last year for Ottawa. Crosby for the Pens early on. McJesus right now I guess. Rinne and Rask are probably not as clear cut, but probably pass the cut aswell, especially Rask.

Right now there seems to be a sweet spot getting a cup run out of a guy on a low deal or even ELC. Most of these guys have not been seen as starters to begin the season though, so it wasn't like these teams saved a bunch of money to spend elsewhere. It's really hard to foresee surprise goaltending performances, like would you advocate for suddenly giving the reigns over to Coreau and roll the dice to spend more bucks elsewhere? I certainly wouldn't do that. Of course, I don't want two guys paid a decent amount like we do either, but that's another discussion.

 

[Heaton]

Hard to draw the line for what is too much, but I certainly don't think winning the cup or vezina is the only criteria to make that judgement. Consistency is probably what I'd be looking at, peace of mind knowing that you will get solid goaltending is IMO worth paying for. Any club's biggest fear is missing the playoffs altogether, and a great player no matter the position, but great goalies in particular, are a safety net for being good. I agree it's easier for a forward to earn it, harder for a defenseman, and hardest for a goalie. But not totally black and white.

Lundqvist has probably carried Rangers to the playoffs close to a handful of times in his career , so in that context he's clearly earned it. I can't think of much bigger team carries anyway in recent history, maybe Karlsson last year for Ottawa. Crosby for the Pens early on. McJesus right now I guess. Rinne and Rask are probably not as clear cut, but probably pass the cut aswell, especially Rask.

Right now there seems to be a sweet spot getting a cup run out of a guy on a low deal or even ELC. Most of these guys have not been seen as starters to begin the season though, so it wasn't like these teams saved a bunch of money to spend elsewhere. It's really hard to foresee surprise goaltending performances, like would you advocate for suddenly giving the reigns over to Coreau and roll the dice to spend more bucks elsewhere? I certainly wouldn't do that. Of course, I don't want two guys paid a decent amount like we do either, but that's another discussion.

It's very possible my line of thinking is out dated where teams can win a cup with super cheap veteran goalies. The ELC deals seems to be the key.

 

[joe89]

It's very possible my line of thinking is out dated where teams can win a cup with super cheap veteran goalies. The ELC deals seems to be the key.

Young, promising guys on ELC deals seems to be the biggest chance to get a big performance cheap. Veterans not so much, I think we can blame the butterfly style for that. But it's a narrow window(and a fair bit of luck) to find one of those guys while the team is cup worthy. And most GM's wouldn't dare making that bet to start a season. If they've built an amazing team only to fail badly because of a young/unproven goaltender, they'll be left looking like idiots.

But it's definitely an interesting topic. I'm totally on the train of not drafting goaltenders because of the unpredictability when you can sign older free agents that will be locked into cheap deals even if they are 25.

 

[HIFE]

...Right now there seems to be a sweet spot getting a cup run out of a guy on a low deal or even ELC. Most of these guys have not been seen as starters to begin the season though, so it wasn't like these teams saved a bunch of money to spend elsewhere. It's really hard to foresee surprise goaltending performances, like would you advocate for suddenly giving the reigns over to Coreau and roll the dice to spend more bucks elsewhere? I certainly wouldn't do that. Of course, I don't want two guys paid a decent amount like we do either, but that's another discussion.

You're right it's an interesting topic and you hit the nail on the head of the way I'm sure many NHL teams are thinking. Matt Murray is the perfect example of a young player who came out of nowhere and has been fantastic . Quick was more known at the time but I'm not sure many could envision his dominance in 2012. You need good scouting and even better luck finding netminders like that.

 

[Red Stanley]

There are a few goalies definitely worth the investment. Price, Quick and Lundqvist off the top of my head.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Quick? Uhh if quick is worth it almost any goalie is. Guy had 2 special playoff runs that’s it. Last 2 haven’t been good and he’s average in the regular season

 

[Red Stanley]

Quick? Uhh if quick is worth it almost any goalie is. Guy had 2 special playoff runs that’s it. Last 2 haven’t been good and he’s average in the regular season

Quick is still a top goalie. Last year he was injured for a long while and his team in general has declined a lot. I don't know if you actually watch the Kings play or you're just looking at stats.