Malkin in '06 WJC = Gretzky in '81 Canada Cup

Discussion in 'International Tournaments' started by VanIslander, Jan 6, 2006.

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  1. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Each dominated the tourney until the Canadian-Russian final, then each was SHUTDOWN in that game.

    1981 Canada Cup for Gretzky.
    2006 World Junior Championships for Malkin.

    An interesting parallel that undermines any attempt to say Malkin's lack of production is an indication of his talent or future success.
     
  2. McGuillicuddy

    McGuillicuddy Registered User

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    Um...I guess..maybe...but don't you think that being shutdown in the Canada Cup is a different can of worms than being shutdown in the WJHC? When Gretzky was in the WJHC he got 17 points in 6 games :dunno:

    I think Malkin's lack of production in this game (and overall abysmal play, to be honest) just means that he has to mature emotionally/mentally before he will be a premiere player in the world. That's not a knock on him really, since he is only 19 years old.
     
  3. Team_Spirit

    Team_Spirit #FireBergevin

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    I agree , Gretzky got his part of critics and people were saying he wasen't a winner . But like McGuillicuddy says both situations are kinda different , Greztsky already had a 130+pts season under his belt , but in a way they are kinda similar too .
     
  4. TheFinalWord

    TheFinalWord Registered User

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    This is really grasping at straws. I don't see too many people saying Malkin won't have NHL success and those that may be thinking that are out to lunch. But comparing Malkin to the greatest hockey player ever in different tournaments and different decades is weak at best.
     
  5. Metallian*

    Metallian* Registered User

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    You can't look at Gretzkys point totals in the WJHC either because if you put Malkin in a Delorean and shot him back to the 70s, Malkin could easily get those kind of numbers against the weaker competition of the past.
     
  6. #66

    #66 Registered User

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    I don't think that Van is comparing Malkin to Gretzky just the feeling of the best player of the tourny getting trounced in the championship. He's saying that the shine of some great play might get overlooked because of the end result.
     
  7. Metallian*

    Metallian* Registered User

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    i think he's also saying that **** happens, and one bad game doesnt dictate an entire careers performance
     
  8. thomasincanada

    thomasincanada Registered User

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    I beg to differ.

    If you put an 18 year old Gretzky in the same Delorean and brought him into today's hockey, you'd never hear a word about Malkin or Ovechkin again.

    If Malkin can't come up big against this Canadian team, nobody has any business saying he'd dominate teams in the 70's and 80's.
     
  9. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Bingo! (though i meant what poster #66 said too)

    Guys like this McGuillicuddy is EXACTLY why I made this thread.
    His (non)performance in one game, even the final of an important international tourney, means SQUAT.
     
  10. Zine

    Zine Registered User

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    Junior teams of the 70's and 80's?????? This Canadian team (or Malkin for that matter) would kill the competition back then. Sure, there were players back then that would absolutely dominate today, but the level of play back then is far below what we see today - especially when you get into the 70's.

    If Malkin is, in fact, in the same ballpark as Ovechkin/Crosby...Malkin would be very dominant if he played in the 70's or '80s NHL.
     
  11. thomasincanada

    thomasincanada Registered User

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    I can't really speak for the junior teams of the early 80's & 70's as what I did watch back then was strictly the pro's, but I felt the poster implied Malkin could go back and get Gretzky like numbers in the pro's as well and I don't believe that. If we are strictly talking junior I take back my comment. However, I firmly believe if you put a 19 year old Gretzky on this Russian junior team instead of Malkin, the Russians win. There is a huge difference between putting up big numbers and making everyone around you better.

    Likely true.
     
  12. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    you better get that feeling checked... it ain't right.

    the parallel was clear... just because the hot young player in the tourney does nothing in the final, doesn't mean anything regarding his future career prospects (even though some would like to hold the canada-russia final against Malkin's potential/ability/talent assessment level)

    just as..... Gretzky did nothing in the canada-russia final even though the 20 year old was phenomenal in earlier games that tourney

    so did.... Malkin do nothing in the canada-russia even though the near-20 year old was phenomenal in earlier games in this tourney

    that's the parallel !!!!!!

    and did the nonperformance in the final prove at all relevant to Gretzky's career potential or success int he future big games.... NO

    and so the nonperformance in the final DOESN'T prove relevant to Malkin's career potential or success in the future big games
     
  13. Maybe, but where will you find 1.21 Jigawatts? A power source of that magnitude doesnt exist...
     
  14. thomasincanada

    thomasincanada Registered User

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    Clearly it would be folly to make many assumptions based on one game.

    However, not showing up big in the Canada Cup final at 20 vs not showing up big in a junior game at 19 are night and day. The Russians had one of the best hockey teams ever that year.

    Malkin was supposed to dominate these younger guys and just plain didn't. He may still come in and dominate the NHL but the fact that Staal/Bourdon/etc shut him down has to be a little concerning for those claiming him to be as good or better then Crosby/Ovechkin.
     
  15. McGuillicuddy

    McGuillicuddy Registered User

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    Yeah, well guys like this McGuillicuddy are right. Mature world-class players bring it when everything is on the line. The great ones do it again and again, so it can't just be luck. The fact that Malkin had an absolute stinker in what I think we can assume to be one of the biggest games of his life so far indicates that, as a hockey player, he has to grow mentally. How can you possibly dispute that?

    Now you say that "he just had an off night" or maybe "just had one bad game". But that's EXACTLY my point! With more maturity those games don't happen when his team needs him most.

    And seriously, do you mean to tell me that you don't agree with my statement that Malkin "has to mature emotionally/mentally before he will be a premiere player in the world."?! Let me be clear, I like Malkin as a player. I hope he comes to the NHL and plays to the same level as the super-rookies before him. But if he had come out and scored 4 goals last night you'd be saying how this shows that he is a clutch player and is the second coming of Jesus Christ. So when he comes out and has a total stinker, you can't just say it means "SQUAT" just to make yourself feel better.
     
  16. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    And Canada had one of the most talented rosters ever too: Gretzky played with Mike Bossy, Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne, Bryan Trottier, Bob Gainey, Denis Potvin, Ray Bourque, Larry Robinson... arguably 9 of the Top-50 players ever!!!

    not as different as "night and day"

    the parallel isn't meant to indicate a perfect equation, analogies are only useful so far,... but the canadian team was supposed to win in 1981 and was demolished int he final... just as the russians were expected to do much better than the canadians in this tourney... the parallel here is close.... though by no means was this my point!
     
  17. McGuillicuddy

    McGuillicuddy Registered User

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    I would also add, that Gretzky's performance in 1980 showed that he had to mature as a player as well. I think he may even have said so himself at some point.
     
  18. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    i don't dispute it if you would have said the same thing about gretzky in the VERY important Canada Cup in 1981.

    i saw the 1981 game and an opinion like yours - about the significance of "an absolute stinker" in the final to the future of a great player - was laughable.

    this thread is meant to show that history could well repeat itself,... and that precedent doesn't support the silly idea that Malkin's nonscoring in the final means something.
     
  19. McGuillicuddy

    McGuillicuddy Registered User

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    See above. I just barely beat you to it :)

    (although I meant to type 1981, not 1980)
     
  20. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    so... the game doesn't count against Malkin then, just his age?

    okay, we don't disagree then.

    but there are some yahoos out there who have been saying that Malkin should be looked at in a LESSER light simply because of his lack of production in the final of this tourney.

    utter nonsense, don't you agree?
     
  21. McGuillicuddy

    McGuillicuddy Registered User

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    Aye, in the end I think we do agree. This one game tells us a little bit about where Malkin is right now as a player, but nothing really about his future/potential. Ovechkin wasn't brilliant in last year's final (well, the part of it that he played), and Crosby wasn't even the best player on his team, but look at them go now! Hands up those among us who would take Patrice Bergeron over Sidney Crosby now because Bergeron was better in last year's WJHC......no, I didn't think I'd see any :).
     
  22. Zine

    Zine Registered User

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    What were you expecting him to do? -- score on every shift? :dunno:
    Apart from the last game, Malkin did dominate - and big time.

    Malkin, Ovechkin, Crosby, etc. are the future of the game, but they're not supermen. Ovechkin was shut down (and injured) in the finals last year; Crosby was shut down in last year's memorial cup (a level below the WJC). Heck, even guys like Spezza and Heatley only had 5 and 4 points in their respective final WJC's.
     
  23. thomasincanada

    thomasincanada Registered User

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    No, but I expected him to score or assist on at least one shift in one of the bigger games in his career. :dunno:
     
  24. octopi

    octopi Registered User

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    Yeah, I was going to dig that one up myself if anyone pressed it.
    Poor Malkin....now he gets to play in the Olympics. Some would say its a chance at redemption, but with the defensive game the Russian senior mens team is likely going to have, I think its more likely to be more of the same. Oh well, there the pressure can be on the older players.
     
  25. oil slick

    oil slick Registered User

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    ?? This doesn't really undermine anything. If Malkin comes up blank in the gold medal game of the Olympics then there is some parrallel. Canada Cup in no way equals WJC. Completely different level of competition.
     
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