Series Discussion: (M1) Washington Capitals vs (WC1) Columbus Blue Jackets

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

The full rebuild talk is odd, I'm actually vastly more optimistic about this team looking forward than I was last year.

We have Gersich, Pinho, Siegenthaler, Johnsson Fjallby, Johansen, Bowey, Djoos, Stephenson, Boyd, and Samsonov all potentially vying for roster spots at some point next year. We likely have a different coach. We're going to have more cap to work with than we have had for a while. We might be in on the Karlsson trade talks. We have a first round pick. We are likely seeing a big return in a trade for one of our G's.


Our team is getting younger and faster next year, assuming GMBM doesn't trade away a lot of these guys for dinosaurs. Our bottom 6 is going to be fun to watch and our top 6 will likely be Wilson, Kuzy, Ov, Vrana, Backstrom, Bura (?).

The only obvious wart to me for next year is the Orpik contract still has a year on it. If we keep Carlson I think it will be at a discount, if we lose him we have that much more money to work with.

We have a way more exciting roster next year as compared to this year.

 

[Langway]

Them missing out on Hughes in 2019 and possibly Alex LaFreniere in 2020 is going to bite them in the ass big time. This year is a great story but for the long term future of the Knights it is horrible.

They'll be fine. What I mostly didn't like for them was the package they gave up for Tatar at the deadline after missing out on Karlsson. They didn't really need him and he sat for G3. Big miss there IMO. They could afford it I guess with the picks they have the next few years but now they have just a second round pick in the first three rounds this year. Tough. I'm sure they'll get another back while moving someone but that was a pretty bad move.

They do have Suzuki, Glass & Brannstrom on the way. They should remain fast up the middle and Gallant is a pretty massive advantage going forward in what could be the weakest division in the league the next few years. We'll see how far they can go this season but they have the right approach and that's a damn good start. Maybe the talent isn't altogether there but from a team-building standpoint I don't tend to think they're just going to collapse. Five years down the line after picking late in the first round we'll see but they'll have plenty of opportunity to shake things up. Hell, they can easily go after Tavares, Carlson & Karlsson (again) this summer if they want. Tanking isn't their only route to picking up elite talent.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I’d say we have the possibility for a way more exciting roster.

I too don’t believe they’ll go through a full rebuild, even if 8 and 19 move on.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

They'll be fine. What I mostly didn't like for them was the package they gave up for Tatar at the deadline after missing out on Karlsson. They didn't really need him and he sat for G3. Big miss there IMO. They could afford it I guess with the picks they have the next few years but now they have just a second round pick in the first three rounds this year. Tough. I'm sure they'll get another back while moving someone but that was a pretty bad move.

They do have Suzuki, Glass & Brannstrom on the way. They should remain fast up the middle and Gallant is a pretty massive advantage going forward in what could be the weakest division in the league the next few years. We'll see how far they can go this season but they have the right approach and that's a damn good start. Maybe the talent isn't altogether there but from a team-building standpoint I don't tend to think they're just going to collapse. Five years down the line after picking late in the first round we'll see but they'll have plenty of opportunity to shake things up. Hell, they can easily go after Tavares, Carlson & Karlsson (again) this summer if they want. Tanking isn't their only route to picking up elite talent.

Overpaying for Tatar after not getting EK is classic TDL GMGM, he missed out on the guy he wanted, he panicked, he knew he wanted something so he overpaid for a guy that probably is worth half of what they gave up. That move is such vintage Caps. "I didn't get you the best defenseman in the league, but here is a third line winger that I traded the world for.... also we're going to scratch him.... also we already have too many wingers."

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

They'll be fine. What I mostly didn't like for them was the package they gave up for Tatar at the deadline after missing out on Karlsson. They didn't really need him and he sat for G3. Big miss there IMO. They could afford it I guess with the picks they have the next few years but now they have just a second round pick in the first three rounds this year. Tough. I'm sure they'll get another back while moving someone but that was a pretty bad move.

They do have Suzuki, Glass & Brannstrom on the way. They should remain fast up the middle and Gallant is a pretty massive advantage going forward in what could be the weakest division in the league the next few years. We'll see how far they can go this season but they have the right approach and that's a damn good start. Maybe the talent isn't altogether there but from a team-building standpoint I don't tend to think they're just going to collapse. Five years down the line after picking late in the first round we'll see but they'll have plenty of opportunity to shake things up. Hell, they can easily go after Tavares, Carlson & Karlsson (again) this summer if they want. Tanking isn't their only route to picking up elite talent.

Sure, they could buy one older $10 mil a year guy who may have already played his best hockey. Then what? Suddenly they’re cap strung and bleeding young players they can’t afford to resign. I don’t see them going that route myself.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

I’d say we have the possibility for a way more exciting roster.

I too don’t believe they’ll go through a full rebuild, even if 8 and 19 move on.

See I think having a young and fast bottom 6 is exactly what we need. We emphasize top 6 scoring too much, 4 lines that produce would be such an amazing upgrade. Connolly, Chiasson, DSP, Beagle can pack it in, I would much prefer speed and youth down there. Trotz is under the belief that it's 1982 though and your bottom 6 has to be heavy and full of grinders, hopefully we get ourselves a new coach who has watched playoff hockey in the last 5 years.

 

[Bieronymus Trotz]

Overpaying for Tatar after not getting EK is classic TDL GMGM, he missed out on the guy he wanted, he panicked, he knew he wanted something so he overpaid for a guy that probably is worth half of what they gave up. That move is such vintage Caps. "I didn't get you the best defenseman in the league, but here is a third line winger that I traded the world for.... also we're going to scratch him.... also we already have too many wingers."

Like the Forsberg for Erat trade, it's closer to the opposite of classic for him.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

See I think having a young and fast bottom 6 is exactly what we need. We emphasize top 6 scoring too much, 4 lines that produce would be such an amazing upgrade. Connolly, Chiasson, DSP, Beagle can pack it in, I would much prefer speed and youth down there. Trotz is under the belief that it's 1982 though and your bottom 6 has to be heavy and full of grinders, hopefully we get ourselves a new coach who has watched playoff hockey in the last 5 years.

I’d love a fast bottom-6 that can score, hit and play competent D. Who wouldn’t? It remains to be seen if we have the personnel for that.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

Like the Forsberg for Erat trade, it's closer to the opposite of classic for him.

The Erat deal was one of the last trades of that day and was not reported until after the deadline. It's very likely we were in on a bigger name player and the deal fell through, GMGM panicked, and grabbed Erat because he was at one point a 50 point player.

I'm going to look back at that TDL and off season and I bet I see someone moved who makes a lot more sense for us.

 

[peterthegreat12]

Even May said its time to blow s**t up if they get swept.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

I’d love a fast bottom-6 that can score, hit and play competent D. Who wouldn’t? It remains to be seen if we have the personnel for that.

Any potential roster we pen in would be entirely hypothetical in execution though, I mean signing crusty old vets jettisoned from other teams isn't exactly safer. I'd much prefer we roll the dice on our youth rather than the patch work bottom 6 of signing guys like Chiasson that teams like Calgary were even like "Eh...". I mean we've seen the Caps have near All-Star teams who had no killer instinct, youth doesn't instantly equate to failure.

 

[Bieronymus Trotz]

The Erat deal was one of the last trades of that day and was not reported until after the deadline. It's very likely we were in on a bigger name player and the deal fell through, GMGM panicked, and grabbed Erat because he was at one point a 50 point player.

I'm going to look back at that TDL and off season and I bet I see someone moved who makes a lot more sense for us.

Yeah, it was a disaster. It's just that despite being his most memorable deadline move, it was actually very out of character. But maybe that's changed, based on the Tatar trade.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

Two other right wings that were moved just before we traded for Erat, Marion Gaborik and Jason Pominville.

Erat's cap was 4.5
Pominville's cap hit was 5.3
Gaborik's was 7.5 (so he would have required other assets to be moved)


I believe if we weren't in on Pom and Gab we were likely in on others. The move to get Erat has all the hallmarks of a panicked move, from the time the trade came in, to the over payment, to the fact that Erat was an afterthought forward that it didn't seem like anyone was really tracking hard.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Any potential roster we pen in would be entirely hypothetical in execution though, I mean signing crusty old vets jettisoned from other teams isn't exactly safer. I'd much prefer we roll the dice on our youth rather than the patch work bottom 6 of signing guys like Chiasson that teams like Calgary were even like "Eh...". I mean we've seen the Caps have near All-Star teams who had no killer instinct, youth doesn't instantly equate to failure.

Well this IS HF where the proven NHL vet gets pissed on regularly for the unproven but potentially AMAZING prospect or often just a draft pick lol.

I’m perfectly fine with moving on from DSP, Connolly, Chiasson, even Beagle assuming someone else can win a damned face-off.

Youth doesn’t always equate to killer instinct either. How often does inexperience equate to failure? Are there a lot of young rookie infused teams taking home Cups?

 

[Sam Spade]

Youth doesn’t always equate to killer instinct either. How often does inexperience equate to failure? Are there a lot of young rookie infused teams taking home Cups?

Pens '16, Pens '17, Bruins this season.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Pens '16, Pens '17, Bruins this season.

Agree to disagree on your definition of infused. If you get us a 2nd generational Superstar I’m on board.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

Yeah, it was a disaster. It's just that despite being his most memorable deadline move, it was actually very out of character. But maybe that's changed, based on the Tatar trade.

I disagree, GMGM gets this moniker of not making TDL big splashes, but if you just look at the names we've aquired under his tenure at the TDL, that majority were guys that were big names at some point and never produced nearly as much here. Penner, Halak, Federov, Arnott, Wideman, Belanger, Huet, etc. His tenure is littered with trades of all times of year that got us either a big name that was a shadow of himself or minor moves that made no lasting roster impact. The most forward thinking trade he had was trading Bondra for Laich.

 

[VaCaps Fan]

Even Alan May is nervous.....

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

Are there a lot of young rookie infused teams taking home Cups?

This is our problem in a nut shell, always pursuing someone else's blueprint, never writing one ourselves. "We are a fast and offensive team, but the Kings won the Cup by being heavy... time to become heavy." "We are a heavy team but the Hawks are successful because they have a strong defensive core, time to overload on our defense." "We are heavy and defensive, but the Pens won with speed, time to become fast."


We're constantly chasing what is two steps ahead of us, why don't we just build a team that can play the style of hockey that makes sense for the personnel we have and see where that takes us. We iced an amazing team in 09-10 and because we ran into a hot goaltender we blew the damn thing up. Every statistic there is says we should have won that series hands down, but we tossed our identity out with the trash.

A guy like Ovechkin has been told he must fit into 5 different styles... I really haven't seen any coach build out from him. These coaches come in with an existing idea of what "good" hockey is and they try cram the roster into that mold, or the GM watches a team win with a style and they begin to build around that idea. You know why teams win the Cup? They recognize the pieces they have and the build forth from there. The Kings had a heavy team and leaned into it, the Hawks had a defensive team and used it as their core, the Pens realized they had youth and speed and rather than patch it with old vets they leaned into it.

We're a patchwork franchise, we constantly try to make our best players conform to the system, I've yet to see a coach build the system around the tools we actually have at our disposal.

 

[Bieronymus Trotz]

I disagree, GMGM gets this moniker of not making TDL big splashes, but if you just look at the names we've aquired under his tenure at the TDL, that majority were guys that were big names at some point and never produced nearly as much here. Penner, Halak, Federov, Arnott, Wideman, Belanger, Huet, etc. His tenure is littered with trades of all times of year that got us either a big name that was a shadow of himself or minor moves that made no lasting roster impact. The most forward thinking trade he had was trading Bondra for Laich.

Panicking and overpaying for a lesser piece was out of character, I mean. The Erat deadline was different because his job might've been on the line if they'd missed the playoffs.

 

[Sam Spade]

Agree to disagree on your definition of infused. If you get us a 2nd generational Superstar I’m on board.

Well of course this is true, and even they couldn't get it done again until they got Kessel.

But the infusion of Rust, Sheary, Wilson, Rowney and Guentzal certainly played a big part.

 

[Calicaps]

This is our problem in a nut shell, always pursuing someone else's blueprint, never writing one ourselves. "We are a fast and offensive team, but the Kings won the Cup by being heavy... time to become heavy." "We are a heavy team but the Hawks are successful because they have a strong defensive core, time to overload on our defense." "We are heavy and defensive, but the Pens won with speed, time to become fast."


We're constantly chasing what is two steps ahead of us, why don't we just build a team that can play the style of hockey that makes sense for the personnel we have and see where that takes us. We iced an amazing team in 09-10 and because we ran into a hot goaltender we blew the damn thing up. Every statistic there is says we should have won that series hands down, but we tossed our identity our with the trash.

A guy like Ovechkin has been told he must fit into 5 different styles... I really haven't seen any coach build out from him. These coaches come in with an existing idea of what "good" hockey is and they try cram the roster into that mold, or the GM watches a team win with a style and they begin to build around that idea. You know why teams win the Cup? They recognize the pieces they have and the build forth from there. The Kings had a heavy team and leaned into it, the Hawks had a defensive team and used it as their core, the Pens realized they had youth and speed and rather than patch it with old vets they leaned into it.

We're a patchwork franchise, we constantly try to make our best players conform to the system, I've yet to see a coach build the system around the tools we actually have at our disposal.

Great post and exactly on point as to why so many here rage against the coach and management over the players.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

Panicking and overpaying for a lesser piece was out of character, I mean. The Erat deadline was different because his job might've been on the line if they'd missed the playoffs.

I disagree, the pieces we gave up for guys like Arnott are long since forgotten because they're not big time splashes but they add up and they're clear over payments in retrospect. Arnott went for a 2nd and Steckel, Wideman was a 3rd round pick and a prospect, Belanger was for a 2nd round pick, etc.

These are rentals who were ineffective during their tenure and costs us high draft picks, those are over payments.

 

[Raikkonen]

Kuzy and defense have many quality years to play in them. If you trade Ovi, Backstrom, Oshie - you have a team of a good age. Holtby is under question - could be both ways.

Certainly the most dangerous ES guy is 92. Certainly Ovechkin doesn't show he is ES monster (is he even capable now?) and Backstrom's meh.

They need to get 24-26 years old guys from a tier below. Would anyone trade such players for Ovi? I bet there are GMs who would entertain such a thought.

But it all starts with coaching stuff.

GMBM can still get enough of cap space in the summer, change Barry, sign somebody and make a pair of hockey trades. Even Ovechkin himself traded could give enough ammo to retool.

I don't believe we will see this though.

But thinking about it... financially, could a Kuzy's team get into playoffs? Absolutely. They could have almost the same revenue without Ovechkin I guess.

It's all has to be on Ted.

 

[Langway]

Sure, they could buy one older $10 mil a year guy who may have already played his best hockey. Then what? Suddenly they’re cap strung and bleeding young players they can’t afford to resign. I don’t see them going that route myself.

They have minimal long-term commitments. They can afford a $10M+ contract and not lose anyone in the short-term. Three to five years out maybe it becomes an issue but it's pretty manageable. I don't think they go after Tavares but Karlsson certainly fits what they do pretty well and they were pretty aggressive about it. Their chances rest on guys like William Karlsson being legit going forward but, again, Gallant is a pretty huge advantage from a stability and team-building standpoint. That and a fairly clear sense of what they're looking for in general should make it easier. The next step may not be as easy but let's see how far this group can take it. I don't doubt they can already give NSH/WPG a pretty good run.