Lundqvist, Miller, Toivonen, Niitymaki

[Matti_A]

With Lundqvist, it's pretty much a story of what you see is what you get at this point. He's already a very accomplished goalie who relies on his brains and positioning more than his excelent physical talent to make his saves. He also has great reflexes and extremely quick legs that allow him to make close-in saves that most other goalies would not be ashamed to miss. Although you could say that he doesn't have much improvement left in him, you just have to look at what he has acheived over the last few years to see that he doesn't need to improve much more, either.

Toivonen is younger and probably does have more room to grow. He's got incredible athletic ability and good brains. But if the question is does he have the kind of vision that Lundqvist does? Lundqvist's positioning is almost always spot-on, whereas Hannu has the flexibility and speed to catch up when his isn't. Toivonen is a much more spectacular player, and will probably be near-unbeatable at times in his career, but with all young players who still need a little more experience, the question is open as to how far he can go to reach his potential.

Miller, I don't know too much about, except that I think that he is very, very solid and will continue to quietly get better. He really needs more muscle, though, to have a good long career.

As for Niittymäki, even though I'm a TPS fan, I have always thought that he looks too small in net. I never like goalies who sit back in the goal. I never thought he looked like a top starter. But he never stops proving me wrong. I don't think he'll ever win a Vezina, but worse, as a Rangers fan, he looks like a money goaltender who wins playoff series.

Good post. I think Lundqvist is playing at his peak right now, because he's played on this high level for about the last three seasons.

I must say I've been a bit dissapointed in Frank the Tank this season, seeing as how he was named Calder Cup playoff MVP last year and all. Imho his play at the olympics wasn't anything extraordinary, a bit better than in the nhl this year but nothing more.

Having said that I think Frank has potential to improve.

As for Hannu I think he is/has been overlooked. He was nothing short of incredible at the start of the season behind a poor Bruin team. He is probably the most athletic finnish goalie I have seen yet. I believe he has the potential to become a top 5 goalie one day.

 

[hifk88]

If we're talk about the best goalie prospect, then #1 is Lehtonen!

Kari isn't still at he's best shape right now and probably he won't be till this season ends, but when he find's that rythmn and find those super skills back he is like the chinese wall! No one can't get throw that!

 

[Levitate]

except the person who started this thread stated they weren't interested in talking about Lehtonen for the purpose of it...

 

[Twist and Shout]

Toivonen
Lundqvist
Niitymaki and Miller

 

[Hudsey]

Thanks for great feedback guys.

Lundqvist has won a lot in the last couple years like the European championship team he was on last year, the World cup, the Olympics and he was top of the league in save percentage and tied with Hasek in GAA. The GAA and save percentage has changed a bit in the last couple weeks but he is still up there.

If we look at Miller since he came back from injury I'm not sure exactly his numbers but I remember them showing on TV that he was top of the league in GAA and SV% until about Mar 9th. Then he had 3 games where he let in 14 goals.

NiitymaKi can look awesome in a game, but totally blow games also. Since the Olympics he's only won 3 games I think.

Toivonen I would like to see play some more. I saw him play 1 or 2 games on TV a while back and he made some really hard saves, but then his team still didn't win.

When is Toivonen supposed to be back? He's been out for 2 months.

 

[kovalev27hf]

Good post. I think Lundqvist is playing at his peak right now, because he's played on this high level for about the last three seasons.

I must say I've been a bit dissapointed in Frank the Tank this season, seeing as how he was named Calder Cup playoff MVP last year and all. Imho his play at the olympics wasn't anything extraordinary, a bit better than in the nhl this year but nothing more.

Having said that I think Frank has potential to improve.

As for Hannu I think he is/has been overlooked. He was nothing short of incredible at the start of the season behind a poor Bruin team. He is probably the most athletic finnish goalie I have seen yet. I believe he has the potential to become a top 5 goalie one day.

i don't see how its fair to say lundqvist won't grow into a better goaltender but the rest all will. how is it fair to say because he's dominating now he wont' get better. if anything this just proves that he's the already the best and probably will be even better than he is now when he's at his prime. why his growth is stunted now as opposed to guys like toivy and lehts who have had injury problems is really unfair no?

 

[Winston Wolf]

Ok rigth now Lundqvist is number one.

So we go

Lundy'
Miller
Nittymaki
Lehtonen
Dipietro(guys forget he is only 24)
Toivonen

Worst. List. Ever.

I'm a Flyers fan, but Niittymaki over Lehtonen? No chance in hell.

As for the four that the original poster was talking about, Lundqvist is clearly first for now and I have no reason to think he wouldn't be first in the future as well. As for Miller/Toivonen/Niittymaki, I basically think its a crapshoot and they could very likely end up in any order. Out of those three, I would take Niittymaki though, as he has had a history of coming up big in big games. As a Flyers fan, I'm used to the opposite, so its difficult for me to take another goaltender of comparable skill over a goaltender who's been nothing but clutch in his career thus far.

Ranking these four, plus Lehtonen and Fleury:

1. Lehtonen
2. Lundqvist
3. Fleury
4a. Niittymaki
4b. Miller
4c. Toivonen

The top three are clearly heads and shoulders above the others, while Lehtonen has the potential to be heads and shoulders above everybody.

 

[Coburnfan05]

Olympic MVP, Calder cup Champion and MVP and no love for Nittymaki.


Including MAF and Lethonen

1. Lundqvist
2. Lehtonen
3. Niittymaki
4. Miller
5. Fleury
6. Toivonen

 

[Levitate]

I'd like to watch Lehtonen more, but in some of the games I've seen him in, it kind of seems like he has the tendency to let in a soft goal or so every game

Maybe it was just the games I've seen, and that doesn't take away from him being a very good goaltender who will probably get better...just something that maybe he has to work at?

 

[Matti_A]

i don't see how its fair to say lundqvist won't grow into a better goaltender but the rest all will. how is it fair to say because he's dominating now he wont' get better. if anything this just proves that he's the already the best and probably will be even better than he is now when he's at his prime. why his growth is stunted now as opposed to guys like toivy and lehts who have had injury problems is really unfair no?

I think Henke has already finished his growth and is right now in his prime. I base this on my observations of him in the Swedish Elitserien the last couple years. His game pretty much looked the same as now with the Rangers i.e he hasn't improved significantly over this period of time wich leads me to believe he has peaked talent wise.

And how could he possibly improve his game from this season, I mean he only let's in 2 goals a game in a new more offensive-minded nhl?

As you stated Hannu and the "ermine" Lehtonen have suffered injuries (Kari has actually been forced to alter his game drastically) wich means they still have plenty to improve once they're 100%. They are also yonger than Hanke I believe and they still have a couple years to hone their game to perfection which I think Lundqvist has alredy done.

 

[Vic Rattlehead*]

Two years, two injuries. Whether they're his fault ot not, it could be the beginning of a pattern. He was then outplayed by Niittymaki in the Eastern Final.

Oh my God, not this again...

The P-Bruins made the playoffs ONLY BECAUSE of Toivonen. They upset Machester(one of the best teams) and Lowell (very good team) in the playoffs. They simply ran out of gas when facing a much better team.

 

[Vic Rattlehead*]

When is Toivonen supposed to be back? He's been out for 2 months.

With the playoffs out of sight, Tovionen probably won't play the rest of the season. Why rush a player back when we won't be making the playoffs?

 

[Puck Dogg]

1. Lehtonen (in a long run, without injuries)
2. Lundqvist (currently pretty even with Lehtonen, loses in long term)
3. Fleury (might bypass Lundqvist in the future)
4. Niittymaki (first season in NHL)
5. Miller (is not a clear starter in Buffalo)
6. Toivonen (has to bypass Thomas in next two years)

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Lundqvist is of course #1 now and will probably be so for some time. He can improve his game but not a lot since it is already close to perfect. I know that he dont move out from is crease as much as he did in the SEL since the game is faster and the the shooters are more skilled in the NHL so there is still some room for improvement for him but not a lot. And as have been said. How can one improve on only 2 goals against in the NHL and that in a team who sint really blessed with the best defenders around evend do they have some good ones?

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Spelling?

 

[007]

i don't see how its fair to say lundqvist won't grow into a better goaltender but the rest all will. how is it fair to say because he's dominating now he wont' get better. if anything this just proves that he's the already the best and probably will be even better than he is now when he's at his prime. why his growth is stunted now as opposed to guys like toivy and lehts who have had injury problems is really unfair no?

You're misinterpreting somewhat what we were saying. I don't think that Lundqvist will not grow into a better goalie, of course he will. His growth is not 'stunted': what I am saying is that he is already there, mentally speaking, where some of the other guys on the list are not.

The theory behind this is that physical talent is a blessing which goalies must learn to exploit. As goalies get older, they get better because they learn to read the game better. Lundqvist does a great job of reading the game and a great job of exploiting what he is able to make his body do.

Physical tools you pretty much have or you don't. Most men do not have the physical ability to do a full east-west split. A guy like Mike Richter or Hannu Toivonen can, I somewhat doubt Lundqvist can (at least not at the speed of an NHL game). Toivonen also has lightning reflexes, perhaps even quicker than Lundqvist's, which are also amazing. Toivonen is 6-2, Lehtonen is 6-3 and both are much bigger than Lundqvist. There is only so much a player can do to improve in any of these areas. If Lundqvist cannot do a full sideways split, or if he could use a bit more size, then it's nothing he can 'learn' to do, but it's not something that really takes away from his game.

Goalies get better with age because it is a position that relies on brains and vision. These can come with experience, which is what a guy like Toivonen needs. Lundqvist's positioning is unreal. You'll very rarely see him make the spectacular save, because he's always in front of the puck. So there's not much for Lundqvist to learn in this area, and he's much better than he was when he was Toivonen's age. He can still learn to occasionally make better decisions when handling the puck (by and large, this has greatly improved as the season has progressed). He can perhaps maintain his concentration a little better in the last 10 minutes of a Rangers blow-out. Both are minor concerns.

Now, when you talk of someone's potential, there are no guarantees that they will make it. If Lundqvist keeps on playing like this for the next 10 years, he'll be a star. If Toivonen does not improve (which is possible, if unlikely), despite his physical tools, he will be a borderline starter at the NHL-level.

 

[007]

Spelling?

Apparently not...

 

[KRM]

Lundqvist is of course #1 now and will probably be so for some time. He can improve his game but not a lot since it is already close to perfect. I know that he dont move out from is crease as much as he did in the SEL since the game is faster and the the shooters are more skilled in the NHL so there is still some room for improvement for him but not a lot.

It was so nice too see that he stayed in the crease during the olympics. I remember when Kovalchuk scored 2 goals against him last season only because he had moved out too much.

The most importan thing that Lundqvist needs too work on imo is his stickhandling. It was sometimes brutal in the SEL.

 

[dafoomie]

Two years, two injuries. Whether they're his fault ot not, it could be the beginning of a pattern. He was then outplayed by Niittymaki in the Eastern Final.

Thats a bit of a stretch, even for you. He only missed 13 games in Providence last year, that and the ankle injury could've happened to anybody.

Lehtonen has a much worse injury history, including a history of groin injuries. Why does Toivonen being injured twice in his professional career matter more than Lehtonen's pattern, going all the way back to 03?

 

[NassauIsles82*]

Dipietro

he's younger than most you mentioned too.

 

[Buffalo87]

Wow, a lot of you guys really like Toivonen. He's not even in the same league as Lundqvist, sorry. And why no respect for Miller? How can anybody rank Niittymaki ahead of him? They're the same age, Miller is the full-stime starter, Niittymaki is not, and lets compare the numbers

Miller: 25-10-2 2.51 .916
Niittymaki: 21-12-6 2.96 .896

And that's with Miller playing poorly lately, 3 weeks ago his sv% was in the .925 area, as it has been all year. I think that's the biggest glaring difference between the two, and I think sv% is the most telling stat about a goalie. Wins and GAA have to do with the team, sv% does not.


Here's my rankings:
1) Lundqvist
2) Miller
3) Toivonen
4) Niittymaki

 

[Matti_A]

Wow, a lot of you guys really like Toivonen. He's not even in the same league as Lundqvist, sorry. And why no respect for Miller? How can anybody rank Niittymaki ahead of him? They're the same age, Miller is the full-stime starter, Niittymaki is not, and lets compare the numbers

Miller: 25-10-2 2.51 .916
Niittymaki: 21-12-6 2.96 .896

And that's with Miller playing poorly lately, 3 weeks ago his sv% was in the .925 area, as it has been all year. I think that's the biggest glaring difference between the two, and I think sv% is the most telling stat about a goalie. Wins and GAA have to do with the team, sv% does not.


Here's my rankings:
1) Lundqvist
2) Miller
3) Toivonen
4) Niittymaki

Have you even seen Toivonen play?

From mid-December up until his injury in early January he posted Lundqvist-like numbers, and he also shut out the white-hot Senators.

Care to elaborate on why he isn't in the same league as Henke?

I agree with you that Miller is better than Niitty, but the only reason he isn't a starter yet is Hitchcock's love for Esche.

 

[TheRedressor]

Wow I am pretty suprised the DiPietro hasn't been named more amongst this list. He is a quality goaltender playing for a HORRIBLE TEAM.

1. Lundqvist- 24 years old, Olympic Gold, SEL Championship and MVP. Will he continue to get better?

2. Kari Lehtonen- AMAZING. Didn't think much of him until i saw him play. This guy is going to make things very intresting for the next 10 years.

3. M-A Fleury- Has so much raw talent. Once he develops properly, which shouldn't take too long playing on the Penguins, he will be money.

4. Rick DiPietro-This guy is overlooked for 2 reasons. 1. He plays for the Islanders. 2. He plays for the Islanders. He is confident as a goaltender can be and has the ability to make highlight reel saves. The only thing that is holding him back besided the Isles is trying to make the fancy save and by doing that, taking himself out of position.

5. Hannu Toivonen- Acrobatic goaltender who is probably the most talented of the group. Still young and just need to put it all together.

6. Ryan Miller- I know most will be shocked that I put him this far. He is SOLID as a goaltender can be. One glaring weakness that he has is shooters going upstairs. That could kill him come playoff time.

7. Antero Nittymaki- Too inconsistant this season. I watched a game against the Islanders where he couldn't even get the puck in his glove. Then two nights later he posts a shutout. Played well in the olympics but did not deserve MVP, that Fin team made it simple for him back there. Antero does have great AHL playoff experience after leading the Phantoms to the Calder Cup last season. Only one question remains, can it translate in the Stanley Cup playoffs?

 

[Buffalo87]

Have you even seen Toivonen play?

From mid-December up until his injury in early January he posted Lundqvist-like numbers, and he also shut out the white-hot Senators.

Care to elaborate on why he isn't in the same league as Henke?

I agree with you that Miller is better than Niitty, but the only reason he isn't a starter yet is Hitchcock's love for Esche.

Well, I've only seen Toivonen play in 3 or 4 games, I wasn't that impressed. I'm sorry, I'm honestly not trying to offend anybody but he just looked lazy. Now I know he was just probably having off games because I know the guy has tremendous potential and he's a great goalie. All I'm saying is that he's just not in the same class as Lundqvist, I guess his and Lundqvist's numbers were somewhat similer (Lundqvist 10 points higher in sv% and 46 points lower in GAA). But if you look, Miller numbers are better than Toivonens, and before the Olympic break, Miller's numbers were almost identical to Lundqvist's (mid .920's sv% with a GAA near 2.25). All I'm saying is the Lundqvist is clearly the best on this list, then I would say it's a toss-up between Miller and Toivonen but I would personally take Miller.

 

[Puck Dogg]

Here's my rankings:
1) Lundqvist
2) Miller
3) Toivonen
4) Niittymaki

I also get the feeling that you have not seen Toivonen play. Niittymaki ranks way ahead of him currently. We're talking about Flyers' starter and Bruins' 2nd-3rd goalie here.

I would still rank Niittymaki even better than Miller. "Nitty" is a AHL champion and had great olympic run. Miller is sharing the Sabres crease with Biron. I must however agree that Lundqvist ranks at the top on those four.