Luc Robitaille 700 goals in 1400 games

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by chooch*, Mar 16, 2006.

  1. chooch*

    chooch* Guest

    Where does he rank compared to Gretzky who had 900 goals in 1500 games or Gartner?

    Luc played in the same West division but didnt have the benefit of those extra first 6 seasons in the early 80's when even Wayne Babych scored 50 goals. Instead he played in the dead puck era for 6 more seasons.

    I'd say Wayne and Luc were about the same level of goal scorers.

    Luc must have had eyes in the back of his head or read the play a step ahead of everyone like a magician; he couldnt skate; was skinny etc etc etc 700 West goals later.

    Where do you rank him as a goal scorer considering he is comparable to Wayne statistically?
     
  2. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Ogopogo's Greatest Goal Scorers

    1 Gordie Howe
    2 Bobby Hull
    3 Maurice Richard
    4 Phil Esposito
    5 Wayne Gretzky
    6 Mike Bossy
    7 Cy Denneny
    8 Cecil Dye
    9 Nels Stewart
    10 Mario Lemieux
    11 Howie Morenz
    12 Jean Beliveau
    13 Charlie Conacher
    14 Brett Hull
    15 Roy Conacher
    16 Bill Cook
    Frank Mahovlich
    18 Ted Lindsay
    19 Pavel Bure
    Stan Mikita
    21 Guy Lafleur
    22 Bernie Geoffrion
    23 Marcel Dionne
    Jaromir Jagr
    25 Teemu Selanne
    26 Bryan Hextall
    27 Peter Bondra
    28 Gordie Drillon
    Joe Malone
    30 Newsy Lalonde
    31 Steve Yzerman
    32 Jari Kurri
    33 Harvey Jackson
    34 Aurel Joliat
    35 Dickie Moore
    36 Camille Henry
    Michel Goulet
    38 Norm Ullman
    Tim Kerr
    40 Cecil Dillon
    41 Marty Barry
    Doug Bentley
    43 David Schriner
    44 Andy Bathgate
    John LeClair
    46 Jarome Iginla
    Hector Blake
    48 Herb Cain
    Lanny McDonald
    50 Rick Martin
    51 Alexander Mogilny
    52 Odie Cleghorn
    53 Joe Sakic
    Billy Burch
    Max Bentley
    Sid Abel
    57 Steve Shutt
    Reg Noble
    Ken Hodge
    Ed Litzenberger
    61 Gaye Stewart
    62 Sid Smith
    Frank Nighbor
    Carson Cooper
    Mickey Redmond
    Charlie Simmer
    Lynn Patrick
    68 Luc Robitaille
     
  3. KOVALEV10*

    KOVALEV10* Guest

    Ogo I really appreciate the work you put to come up with these lists but Espo is not even in the same league in goal scoring as 99 or 66 or Bossy or even Hull and Lafleur.
     
  4. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    Why not? I don't agree with Ogopogo's lists concerningLemieux being so low (I do realize it's based on stats and such, not what if's)...but Esposito is certainly in the same league as Hull, and in terms of just goal scoring, I would say he's certainly ahead of Lafleur.

    Didn't he basically set every scoring record untill Gretzky broke them? Check out what the rest of the league was scoring at when he was having his 60 and 70 goal seasons. It's pretty impressive.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2006
  5. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    The run-and-gun era started in the late 70s, it didn`t just magically appear in 1980. You bring up Wayne Babych constantly; what about some of the players who scored 50 in the 70s? Danny Grant? Guy Chounaird? Hall of Fame city.
     
  6. KOVALEV10*

    KOVALEV10* Guest

    Espo was scoring cheap garbage goals standing in front of the net and in other instances was taking perfect passes from Bobby Orr. Look at Kurri. He's got better stats then Lafleur too. I guess Kurri >> Lafleur? Who did Guy have on his line who could make great plays? Shutt was just a shooter (his highest assist total must have been in the 40-s) and Lemaire was a defensive forward and not much a playmaker himself. The fact that Guy scored 50 or more for 6 straight seasons which is in fact one more season then Espo is unbelivable considering the circumstances. Also look at Espo's stats without Orr. He was hardly a 50 goal scorer. He was a 40-45 goal scorer. Put Guy with someone like Orr or Gretz and he'd score 70 a year no doubt about it.

    Lemieux is at a wholleee different league then those two though, he was just insane.
     
  7. Higgy4

    Higgy4 Registered User

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    Mickey Redmond....twice.
     
  8. KariyaIsGod*

    KariyaIsGod* Guest

    Wayne really hurt his goal numbers by playing after the 91 back injury. Before that, when he had his slapshot, the man could not be stopped. So no...
     
  9. brianscot

    brianscot Registered User

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    The idea that Esposito just scored cheap garbage goals and only scored due to great passes from Orr is a cliche that is just wrong.

    Esposito had size, courage and great hands. Orr played with many forwards during his career, how many of them ever pocketed 76 goals? Just one.

    Beyond that, what exactly is a garbage goal? Does that mean that every time Mario, Gretzky or Richard scored it was a work of beauty?

    Amongst players I have seen my list would be:

    1). Mario
    2). Gretzky
    3). Bossy
     
  10. KOVALEV10*

    KOVALEV10* Guest

    Obviously only a great player could score that many goals but what I'm getting at is without Orr he couldn't have done it. Maybe he could've cracked 50 a couple times in his prime. Orr's passes were a thing of beauty. Just look at Cheechoo and Gagne this year playing with Thornton and Forsberg. They've turned into 50 goal scorers when they're really no matter then 35 goal scorers. This is just Thonrton and Forsberg. Imagine playing with 99 or Orr. Lafleur didn't need any help from a pheonomal playmaker playing at his side or standing in front of the net just to deflect shots or put in rebounds, Guy would go end to end and score himself. Same with Mario.
     
  11. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    I'm fairly certain Orr did not play on Esposito's line. He was a defenceman, IIRC. Now if memory serves me, those Canadians teams had a pretty solid defence corps as well. In fact, I'd say tey had a pretty decent team all around. Put him second in his draft year, and maybe we're talking about Marcel Dion instead of Guy Lafleur here... ;)

    If you've seen the Summit Series (or the videos) you'd realize that Esposito was a dominant force, Orr or no Orr (he lead the tournament in goals and points). In fact, he was a much more dominant goal scorer than Lafleur internationally, and their playoff stats are almost identical.

    Esposito may have slowed down when he was traded to Boston in his mid 30's...but so what? He was still more productive than Lafleur, who's production fell off the shelf after the age of 29 (must have been because he wasn't playing with Lemaire anymore eh?).

    This argument is based on too many "what if's". Esposito produced more during his prime, in internation play, in the playoffs, and when they were both past their peak. It doesn't mean he was the better play necessarily, but he was the better goal scorer.
     
  12. KOVALEV10*

    KOVALEV10* Guest

    First of all none of those dmen were Bobby Orr. Lapointe, Savard and Robinson were great defensively and great puck moving dmen. But none had the vision that Orr had. I dont need to watch tapes because I've seen it live by the way and I still stand by my choice. Lafleur> Esposito no question about it. It's funny you say Lafleur's producing dropped after the age of 29 because of Lemaire leaving. Well buddy, I know you're being sarcastic but I'll say it anyway. Lafleur was involved in a car accident in 81 and never scored more then 30 after that. That accident doesnt happen and Lafleur probably scores 50 a couple more seasons. No reason to think he couldn't have since he was still in the middle of his prime.
     
  13. Bring Back Bucky

    Bring Back Bucky Registered User

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    What were Lafleur's injuries? i don't recall there being anything serious that would have affected his career- i think he sliced off most of an ear, but can't remember the specifics of his other injuries
     
  14. V-2 Schneider

    V-2 Schneider Registered User

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    Flower torn up his knee(Boutette kneed him) in the 1980 playoffs vs Hartford.His game went into decline after that.He also missed a centreman like Lemaire,who sacrificed his own personal production, for the sake of team, and made sure Flower got the puck.Lemaire was the playmaker on that line, and he had a knack for finding an open Lafleur, and hitting him with superb passes.
     
  15. chooch*

    chooch* Guest

    Look at 1978-79 the last of the 4 straight years: Lafleur is 52 77 129; next best on the Dynasty Habs is Shutt with 77 points. Lemaire is injured most of the year.
    For one more example of why trophies dont mean squat, Guy didnt win any that year including the Hart..............

    Anyway....back to Lucky Luke, I see Ogopogo after much research manages to put Espo at #4, Wayne at #5 and Luc at #68.

    Espo had 700 goals in 1300 games, Wayne 900 in 1400 and Luc 700 in 1400.

    :dunno: ..how do you get 50 Cy Malarkadenny's in between Wayne and Luc? How does Shutt a left wing with 400 career goals come in at #58 ahead of Luc???

    Had luc been born 6 years earlier and played with the goal happy Oilers...1000 goals seem likely.

    Or maybe if his name was Luke Roberts from Kingston.........
     
  16. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Luc isn't one of the Top-100 hockey players ever.

    But he could put the puck in the net.

    No comparison to Gretz in the passing department. Nor in the "magical" hockey sense.

    All things considered, Robitaille has been as bad as a longtime 40-goal scorer could be.
     
  17. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    Agree or not, I thought everyone understood how Ogopogo's lists work by now. If Robitaille is that low, it probably means he was rarely amongst the top goal scorers in any given season. I think his highest ever finish was 3rd in 1993, and maybe a couple other top-5's...

    700 goals in 1400 games for Luc is really no different than 608 goals in 1230 games for Ciccarelli. Would you put Dino amongst the top goal scorers ever? Maybe if he was French?
     
  18. Old Hickory

    Old Hickory Guest

    The high scoring left wing in the history of the game isn't one of the top 100 players? You need to slap yourself.
     
  19. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    He's right.
     
  20. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    Lets get real. esposito maybe the best garbage goal scorer ever but in the same league as hull--Ridiculous. without Hull & Orr., slow footed Phil was a 2nd tier player.
     
  21. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    All of this talk that Esposito isn't worthy is simply flawed thinking. Last time I checked ALL goals were were 1 on the scoreboard. I don't ever recall a team getting 2 for a goal that was a thing of beauty. So, how Espo scored them is completely irrelevant.

    The man scored goals at a pace that makes him the 4th greatest goal scorer on my list. Remember, he put in 76 goals when hardly anybody else was hitting 50. Espo was a great goal scorer and deserves to be mentioned among the best.

    How they go in means absolutely nothing. If that was the case, the Oilers might have beaten Calgary in the '86 playoffs because Perry Berezan's goal (Steve Smith incident) might have only been worth .1 of a goal while one of the Oiler goals could have counted for 1.5.
     
  22. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    Agree that a goal counts one no matter how it goes in but if it bounces off your backside because you are a goal suck standing in front of the net is different than going end to end & deking the goalie. Using stats is only a tool. It doesn't by itself define greatness. Bobby Hull & Rocket richard are the greatest goal scorers ever but they didn't do it by standing in front of the net and let others do the work.

    Ogopogo, Your statisical formula is a good effort but it is still very arbitrary. If i had the time , i could develop another metodology that would produce very different results. Statistics can be played with. It can be used to produced a desired end result.
     
  23. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    The logic and reasoning behind any statistical analysis is paramount. Anybody can throw out numbers but, the intelligence behind them must be sound for the argument to be worthy. I believe that the intelligence behind my numbers is very sound. One day, when I have the time, perhaps I will explain it in detail.
     
  24. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    I can hardly wait. There is no univrsal way to rate players from different eras. Your one to seven method with weightings for dominant seasons does not have any good reasoning behind it. There is a hindred different ways it could be done. You could go withh only the top five with no domoinance rating for example. In other words, youur system is absolutely meaningless. A great effort but meamingless.
     
  25. #66

    #66 Registered User

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    Just to get back on topic, does Robitaille even crack the top 10 LW's ever? He's scored a ton of goals but I think some others have had more value over the entire ice. Maybe he would get grouped in with Goulet and Propp but I think that people forget just how good those players were away from the puck. Goulet had a role players work ethic and was great along the boards. Propp IMO is one of the most underrated players I've ever seen and had a great two way game.
    Hull
    Mahovlich
    Lindsay
    Shanahan
    Bucyk
    Moore
    Goulet
    Propp
    Blake
    Jackson
     

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