Loot Boxes, Microtransactions & Game as Service Model Thread

Pilky01

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Now Belgium declares loot boxes gambling and therefore illegal | Eurogamer

Hot on the heels of the Netherlands declaring loot boxes are gambling and therefore illegal, Belgium has had its say.

The Belgian Gaming Commission looked at Star Wars Battlefront 2, FIFA 18, Overwatch and Counter-Strike: Global Offensive and found only Star Wars was not in violation of the country's gambling legislation - and that's only because EA stripped out the game's loot boxes after its launch debacle.
 

oXo Cube

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I have nothing to add to the thread other than of course it's gambling and it's amazing it took as long as it did for these rulings to start coming down.

Classic EA to be so greedy that they might have ruined it for the entire industry, though.
 

Pilky01

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I think under rules such as this you'd have to ban something like baseball card packs.

People were getting into that discussion in the comments.

I believe a distinction is drawn between tangible things that retain value and that the owner who "won" them through the random chance of the card pack could benefit from, and loot box items which have no monetary value and can not be re-sold.
 
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SniperHF

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I believe a distinction is drawn between tangible things that retain value and that the owner who "won" them through the random chance of the card pack could benefit from, and loot box items which have no monetary value and can not be re-sold.

It would definitely depend on however the law is written to be sure.
But for example in TF2 I bought a key for a crate, got an orange spy knife. Sold it 3 years later for $27 in steam bucks on the marketplace and bought a game with it. The $27 was way more than the key for the crate cost. So I did all the same things you might do with a card pack. I just didn't do it in Euros or USD.
 

RandV

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I actually haven't played a regular sports game since NHL2K5 maybe,but I actually really like the idea of the card pack mode. There's a fairly significant disconnect from the broader gaming community when it comes to sports games, where a lot of so called 'gamers' do sports (this being a hockey message board obviously doesn't get that), so they don't understand the appeal to the FIFA card system and just see it as more loot boxes.

That said, I'm sure EA has monetized the shit out of it corrupting it to the point that yes it's basically gambling and the game mode could be more frustrating than fun. So I doubt it's really fair to look at it and saying 'isn't baseball/etc trading cards gambling too'?... well I guess maybe they kind of are, but unlike 'loot boxes' they've been around for 100 years without running into any legal or regulation trouble.
 

Pilky01

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I in no way want to “defend” EA, but personally I have zero issue with the ultimate team, card pack stuff. That’s a new gameplay mode that was added in addition to the existing structure of the content. It was a genius move by EA and I don’t think they deserve scorn for pioneering it.

Where they f***ed up was rolling back regular features, especially in non-sports games, behind “pay to win” barriers.
 

SniperHF

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but unlike 'loot boxes' they've been around for 100 years without running into any legal or regulation trouble.

That was really more my point than anything. They are only in trouble because someone decided to make it for them and they are a big enough target.
Going after Tops or Wizards or whatever just doesn't do it for anybody.

I'd rather people just buy or not buy their loot crates and everyone move on. If there was some widescale damage being done I could at least understand the argument for going after them via government regulation, though I'd probably still disagree with it. This just seems like office holders throwing their weight around.
 

Gardner McKay

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Now Belgium declares loot boxes gambling and therefore illegal


Wonder if this starts getting traction from other countries, video game companies will try to find an alternative? Unless most countries do this though, I doubt it as its too much of a money maker for them.
I hope so. Honestly, I have to pay $60 for a f***ing game, then another $40 for DLC and then I have to gamble to get certain things I want? Absolutely f***ing ridiculous. I have no issues with it in sports games because the modes in those games are entirely optional. But for things like COD it pisses me off to no f***ing end.
 
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S E P H

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I don't play nor waste my time with FIFA 18 Ultimate team or NHL's HUT system, but not sure how you can classify those as "gambling". It's just like going to the store and buying a pack of Pokemon, baseball, or hockey cards...but in a virtual system. Not only that, but FIFA's system allows you to search individual cards and buy the players you want. In other words, it's like Ebay more than anything else which you can buy packs of cards from as well.

This completely differs to the Battleground system of locking players behind a paywall and you having to open loot crates to gain enough credits to eventually spend on those characters.
 

Saskatoon

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I wish we could trust companies to use such features in a somewhat fair manner but some (cough, EA, cough) will stretch everything to the extreme. I hate pay to win mechanics and while maybe you look the other way in a FTP game when you already paid full retail for a game there should not be pay to win mechanics. But on the other hand I don't mind how people like PUBG do it, the cosmetic items don't give you an advantage in gameplay and can be easily ignored if you want to.
 

Dolemite

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I wish we could trust companies to use such features in a somewhat fair manner but some (cough, EA, cough) will stretch everything to the extreme. I hate pay to win mechanics and while maybe you look the other way in a FTP game when you already paid full retail for a game there should not be pay to win mechanics. But on the other hand I don't mind how people like PUBG do it, the cosmetic items don't give you an advantage in gameplay and can be easily ignored if you want to.

Devils advocate - so what do you propose to satisfy the hardcore players who eat sleep and breathe games and the casual player who only plays every once in a while to keep player levels somewhat even? There’s got to be something that satisfies both groups of players.
 

Commander Clueless

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"Illegal" seems pretty strong.

Sure, I think putting restrictions on games with lootbox style microtransactions is legitimate - perhaps making every game with them rated M or even AO (or the European equivalent). Make sure the people purchasing lootboxes are of legal gambling age and receive similar warnings as actual gambling.

Not that I'd miss lootboxes or anything.

Devils advocate - so what do you propose to satisfy the hardcore players who eat sleep and breathe games and the casual player who only plays every once in a while to keep player levels somewhat even? There’s got to be something that satisfies both groups of players.

Easier Solution - Progression systems that are enticing and can add variation, but are not necessarily advantageous. The best multiplayer games go this route.

More Complicated Solution - Better matchmaking or level scaling, depending on what type of game you are talking about.
 
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Beau Knows

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Devils advocate - so what do you propose to satisfy the hardcore players who eat sleep and breathe games and the casual player who only plays every once in a while to keep player levels somewhat even? There’s got to be something that satisfies both groups of players.

In offline games/modes that issue was solved a long time ago with cheat codes, no need for loot boxes there.

For online games, just match players up based on skill/experience, if you don't play much you shouldn't get matched up against people who do. Instead EA has patented a matchmaking system that would allow them to match players who haven't spent more money against people who did to encourage them to do so as well.
 

Suxnet

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China also has a law that gaming publishers must publicly disclose drop rates on each type of loot. I think this kind of law should be a start for all countries. As far as banning goes, if it affects gameplay then real $$ for loot boxes should be outlawed. If it's just cosmetics related then I don't have as much of a problem with it.
 

PK Cronin

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I think under rules such as this you'd have to ban something like baseball card packs.

Same thing could be said for something like a subscription service that gives you randomized items every month (clothing, food, etc.).

I personally don't like loot boxes much, but I also don't care if anyone spends their money gambling. If you want to bet on ant races on the sidewalk, I'm not going to stop you.
 

RandV

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I hate this trend in gaming. I hate that single player games are becoming rarer.

It's been going on for some time now and not the first time this sort of trend has happened (all games need multiplayer, now games need coop, etc etc). I'd say it's a pretty good bet the big publishers will push it too far and it collapses in on itself, and they find there way back to single player games again... at least until the next big trend comes along.
 

syz

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It's been going on for some time now and not the first time this sort of trend has happened (all games need multiplayer, now games need coop, etc etc). I'd say it's a pretty good bet the big publishers will push it too far and it collapses in on itself, and they find there way back to single player games again... at least until the next big trend comes along.

The difference is that this trend isn't a byproduct of a bunch of publishers/developers focusing on a trend among their customers; it's the culmination of game development in a capitalist system. CEOs and business execs want to maximize profit. Single player games don't do that; development costs have become too high at the AAA level as hardware has increased, so repeatedly spending the money to develop a single player game that people pay once for and move on isn't good enough. To compensate for increased development costs, they needed to find a way to make their games last longer with players, and find a way to monetize those players continuously while they stuck around. They got too greedy with how they monetized their players, and now here we are.

Big budget publishers will have to come up with a way to monetize their games that doesn't involve loot boxes. If they can't find a way to pay the bills without their gambling systems, then their games will have to start having more reasonable budgets. Personally, when I think about the AAA games that I've played over the last several years, I find it difficult to give a shit. 90% of those games could disappear and I wouldn't even notice. The only concern is the ripple effect it might have on the industry. But at least if big budget games were forced to focus less on throwing money at things like resolution and graphical fidelity, maybe they'd actually get back to focusing on gameplay.
 

PK Cronin

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The difference is that this trend isn't a byproduct of a bunch of publishers/developers focusing on a trend among their customers; it's the culmination of game development in a capitalist system. CEOs and business execs want to maximize profit. Single player games don't do that; development costs have become too high at the AAA level as hardware has increased, so repeatedly spending the money to develop a single player game that people pay once for and move on isn't good enough. To compensate for increased development costs, they needed to find a way to make their games last longer with players, and find a way to monetize those players continuously while they stuck around. They got too greedy with how they monetized their players, and now here we are.

Big budget publishers will have to come up with a way to monetize their games that doesn't involve loot boxes. If they can't find a way to pay the bills without their gambling systems, then their games will have to start having more reasonable budgets. Personally, when I think about the AAA games that I've played over the last several years, I find it difficult to give a ****. 90% of those games could disappear and I wouldn't even notice. The only concern is the ripple effect it might have on the industry. But at least if big budget games were forced to focus less on throwing money at things like resolution and graphical fidelity, maybe they'd actually get back to focusing on gameplay.

I think you're right. There has been a resurgence of single player games (at least on PC) when it comes to indie games because the cost to produce them is completely lower. The technology to do multiplayer games the way they do now just didn't exist in the past either, so it's an evolution based on the technology and what the consumer has come to expect, which is being able to connect with other people whenever they're doing anything.
 

Smoke

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Smite(HiRez) releases cool cosmetic skins but then sticks them in a high item chest and gives it a low percentage chance of rolling. You literally have to spend 100's of dollars just for one skin.

These F2P games need to go to direct purchases and stop trying to milk the cash cow.

This is one of the many reasons Fortnite is so popular right now.
 

Commander Clueless

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I hate this trend in gaming. I hate that single player games are becoming rarer.

I totally agree. I know it's because these microtransaction multiplayer games are cash cows, but why can't we have variety?

I like me a multiplayer game (more so co-op than competitive), but single player experiences can produce the true masterpieces.
 
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