Lidstrom vs. Harvey for #2 Dman of all time?

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danincanada

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Feb 11, 2008
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Lidstrom grew up in the 1970's and 1980's playing his youth hockey at that time. The numbers you cite seem like the composite youth hockey numbers for Canada, the USA and the remaining hockey playing nations. How 1.5 million kids playing hockey in 2011 may impact or be viewed as part of the competition that drives a 40+ year old NHL player would be interesting to see.

If we take Bobby Orr's last healthy season - 1974-75 he was playing in the context of 18 NHL teams + 14 WHA teams = 32 teams, while Lidstrom played the 2010-11 season in the context of 30 Nhl teams. Given the slight difference in roster sizes but appreciating the movement between leagues, it is rather obvious that participation in the elite North American hockey pond was almost identical, about 700 players. Both were their eras biggest defensive fish in a similar sized pond give or take a measuring cup.

You're right about the first point of course but if you want to look at when Lidstrom and Orr were born then the results would be similar IMO. Hockey has grown and has spread to more people over time and hopefully it will continue to do so. There's no denying there are many more people playing hockey now than in the past. For the most part it's been an upward trend since it's infancy. There are 500,000 registered players in the US right now compared to less than 200,000 20 years ago. Coaches and officials have grown in a similar fashion as well.

http://www.usahockey.com//Template_Usahockey.aspx?NAV=ME_03&ID=29074

As for the second paragrah, these leagues have all increased in size over time:

There are 23 KHL teams now compared to 9-12 in the RSL in the 70s and 80s.

There are 30 AHL teams now compared to 8-12 in the 70s plus 10 or so teams in the IHL.

There are 20 OHL teams now compared to 10-12 teams in the 70s.

There are 18 QMJHL teams now compared to 10 in the 70s.

There are 22 WHL teams now compared to 12 teams in the 70s.

They have all grown across the board and so has participation in hockey. The denial of this must stop. It's a bigger pond now and it's more difficult to stand out than ever. To pretend the opposite is true is absurd.
 

livewell68

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Jul 20, 2007
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Most truly great players seem to have an ability to slow the game down or at least act as if they are seeing it slowed down. ie. Gretzky, Lemieux etc.

You're kidding yourself if you really think the players at that much faster now than 10 to 20 years ago.

Didn't you know? Apparently from 2006 and on players have become bionic, Goliath type players who all skate at over 120 miles an hour, they all shoot harder than MacInnis, they all hit harder than Stevens, they all play better defense than Bourque and they pass as well as Gretzky and think better than Gretzky, and shoot as accurately as Lemieux.

Players in the 90's, 80's and 70's sucked compared to these "modern athletes" as Ivan Drago's trainer said in Rocky 4.

Like Rocky, players from the 90's, 80's, 70's were weak humans while modern hockey players are Ivan Dragos compared.
 
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danincanada

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Feb 11, 2008
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Didn't you know? Apparently from 2006 and on players have become bionic, Goliath type players who all skate at over 120 miles an hour, they all shoot harder than MacInnis, they all hit harder than Stevens, they all play better defense than Bourque and they pass as well as Gretzky and shoot as accurately as Lemieux.

Players in the 90's, 80's and 70's sucked compared to these "modern athletes" as Ivan Drago's trainer said in Rocky 4.

Like Rocky, players from the 90's, 80's, 70's were weak humans while modern hockey players are Ivan Dragos compared.

It's not that extreme but there has been a steady improvement of the athletes over time IMO. Why wouldn't there be? The population has grown and hockey has grown.
 

livewell68

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Jul 20, 2007
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It's not that extreme but there has been a steady improvement of the athletes over time IMO. Why wouldn't there be? The population has grown and hockey has grown.

... because this.

People that argue this usually say it's when guys like Stamkos, Crosby, Ovechkin started to dominated that the game really changed.

They completely discredit anything that guys like Jagr, Bure, Hasek, and before have accomplished.

For instance, if one says Jagr at age 34 scored 123 Pts in 2005-06 and that no one since has scored more except for Thornton that same season, you get flamed and get told that Ovechkin, Stamkos, Crosby are better and play in a more competent league that even 5 years ago.
 

BraveCanadian

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Jun 30, 2010
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It's not that extreme but there has been a steady improvement of the athletes over time IMO. Why wouldn't there be? The population has grown and hockey has grown.

1992 Sergei Fedorov 14.363
1993 Mike Gartner 13.510
1994 Sergei Fedorov 13.525
1996 Mike Gartner 13.386
1997 Peter Bondra 13.610
1998 Scott Niedermayer 13.560
1999 Peter Bondra 14.640
2000 Sami Kapanen 13.649
2001 Bill Guerin 13.690
2002 Sami Kapanen 14.039
2003 Marian Gaborik 13.713
2004 Scott Niedermayer 13.783
2007 Andy McDonald 14.03
2008 Shawn Horcoff 14.395
2009 Andrew Cogliano 14.31
2011 Michael Grabner 14.238


The average player might be a bit faster, but human limits are subject to diminishing returns just like everything else.

The fastest skaters today are no faster than they were 20 years ago despite all this training and even while having lighter equipment.

I know the story around here is that everyone is a bionic superhero now but human beings don't evolve very quickly. :)
 

livewell68

Registered User
Jul 20, 2007
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1992 Sergei Fedorov 14.363
1993 Mike Gartner 13.510
1994 Sergei Fedorov 13.525
1996 Mike Gartner 13.386
1997 Peter Bondra 13.610
1998 Scott Niedermayer 13.560
1999 Peter Bondra 14.640
2000 Sami Kapanen 13.649
2001 Bill Guerin 13.690
2002 Sami Kapanen 14.039
2003 Marian Gaborik 13.713
2004 Scott Niedermayer 13.783
2007 Andy McDonald 14.03
2008 Shawn Horcoff 14.395
2009 Andrew Cogliano 14.31
2011 Michael Grabner 14.238


The average player might be a bit faster, but human limits are subject to diminishing returns just like everything else.

The fastest skaters today are no faster than they were 20 years ago despite all this training and even while having lighter equipment.

Exactly.

Training and advancement in technology can only take you so far.

The same applies for any sport.

I think although strategies, preparation, technology continuing improving, I personally feel that the 90's was the peak of athleticism in any sport.

Just look at basketball, hockey, football, baseball....
 

livewell68

Registered User
Jul 20, 2007
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I'm glad this thread is less than 20 posts away from being locked, now that it's degenerated into this sort of discussion.

Why is that? Is it because some are arguing that Lidstrom is not as great as it seems or that players in past generations might have been better than today's athletes?
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,113
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Regina, SK
You're kidding yourself if you really think the players at that much faster now than 10 to 20 years ago.

10? Doubtful, i don't think it would even be noticeable.
20? Definitely a difference, but not by much. (looking at who the fastest player in the league at the time doesn't prove it, watching games and looking at the player-by-player speeds does)
30? For sure.

in before I close this.
 

Rhiessan71

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Feb 17, 2003
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Guelph, Ont
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It pretty hard to truly take the whole "Light years ahead speed of the game today" argument too seriously every time I watch #75 for the Habs making a pretty good living ;)

Gill would of been slooooooww in any era.


Back to the actual topic though...I would put Bourque ahead of Harvey before I would put Lidstrom there and I'm not sure if I'm even ready to put Bourque #2.

I wouldn't take issue with putting Lidstrom ahead of Bourque for career. Nick has obviously had more team success and owns more hardware but Bourque is still the better player imo.
 
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Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
20,020
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Your Numbers

You're right about the first point of course but if you want to look at when Lidstrom and Orr were born then the results would be similar IMO. Hockey has grown and has spread to more people over time and hopefully it will continue to do so. There's no denying there are many more people playing hockey now than in the past. For the most part it's been an upward trend since it's infancy. There are 500,000 registered players in the US right now compared to less than 200,000 20 years ago. Coaches and officials have grown in a similar fashion as well.

http://www.usahockey.com//Template_Usahockey.aspx?NAV=ME_03&ID=29074

As for the second paragrah, these leagues have all increased in size over time:

There are 23 KHL teams now compared to 9-12 in the RSL in the 70s and 80s.

There are 30 AHL teams now compared to 8-12 in the 70s plus 10 or so teams in the IHL.

There are 20 OHL teams now compared to 10-12 teams in the 70s.

There are 18 QMJHL teams now compared to 10 in the 70s.

There are 22 WHL teams now compared to 12 teams in the 70s.


They have all grown across the board and so has participation in hockey. The denial of this must stop. It's a bigger pond now and it's more difficult to stand out than ever. To pretend the opposite is true is absurd.

The AHL today basically is a composite of the 1970's AHL, the IHL, the WHL, the CHL(Central), the NAHL, the EHL. Basically as larger arenas were built the additional revenues could justify an upgrade to the AHL level.

The CHL = QMJHL + OHL + WHL. The increases in teams you refer to are the result of arena upgrades and facilitated travel by super highways in Canada. The extra teams come from the substrata of junior leagues that were feeder teams to major junior teams. Previously qualified junior players from the Maritimes - Crosby's dad, did not have local teams in the Q, today Maritime players do.

The lack of difference is evidenced in the NHL Entry Draft. Using the same seasons as in the previous Orr / Lidstrom analogy. 1975 draft saw 217 players selected with pick #210 Dave Taylor making the NHL. 2011 NHL Entry Draft saw 211 players selected. Based on your claims the number of players drafted should have doubled or tripled but the stark reality is that the number of drafted players remained the same.

So what happened?

More people playing hockey does not mean there is more or better hockey talent. All it means is that there are more people registered as hockey players. The kids who did not count in the numbers years ago because they were playing in various informal house leagues now get counted even if they are playing Intro C level or are in learn to skate programs(generates funding). USA hockey is growing in numbers because it is spreading to the grassroots level but their elite is rather stable. Adult hockey is being recognized with leagues running in arenas 12 months of the year but none of the players are going to make the NHL in the future.

Europe is another issue KHL now features imports, juniors and old-timers, similar to the old QSHL,EPHL,AHL,WHL since they cannot sustain the league on their own or with young players at the 23 team level. Factor out the imports, the juniors, the old-timers and you have little growth from the old Soviet league.

For your numbers to carry weight the NHL Entry Draft would have to generate a much larger harvest every year, roughly 400-600 picks, that would be proportionate throughout the hockey playing world. But this is not happening. Fewer Finns, Czechs, Slovaks are getting drafted. True they are replaced at times by an Austrian, Norwegian, German, etc but the size of the overall pool that is drafted has actually shrunk as illustrated above.
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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Hal Gill

It pretty hard to truly take the whole "Light years ahead speed of the game today" argument too seriously every time I watch #75 for the Habs making a pretty good living ;)

Gill would of been slooooooww in any era.


Back to the actual topic though...I would put Bourque ahead of Harvey before I would put Lidstrom there and I'm not sure if I'm even ready to put Bourque #2.

I wouldn't take issue with putting Lidstrom ahead of Bourque for career. Nick has obviously had more team success and owns more hardware but Bourque is still the better player imo.

Excellent point. Since the NHL liberalized stick length, a number of Hal Gill types have survived because extra stick length plus extra arm length compensates for a lack of skating, foot speed and mobility. The extra stick length also allows the tall player to play to his frame(more upright) as opposed to hunched over which would further lessen his skills and contribution.
 

steve141

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Aug 13, 2009
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Look guys, there's a reason why players had shorter peaks and careers back then, it was a very rough, physically abusing time. Triple that and more towards Euro players.

All you have to do is watch games of Salming from the 70's and it will become pretty evident what I'm talking about.

I know Lidstrom has not missed many games but we're not talking about taking just any player back to the 70's, we're talking about bringing an European back.
Whooooole different can of worms and I'm telling you right now, Lidstrom would not survive what Salming did.

I'm not saying the bias, discrimination and flat out physical abuse towards Euro players was by any means right what so ever back then, but the fact of the matter is, it WAS there in a big way.

23 players born in Sweden played in the NHL during the 70s. What separates Lidstrom from them? You have failed to supply any evidence that Lidstrom was "simply not tough enough to play back then".
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Pre Steroid Testing

Exactly.

Training and advancement in technology can only take you so far.

The same applies for any sport.

I think although strategies, preparation, technology continuing improving, I personally feel that the 90's was the peak of athleticism in any sport.

Just look at basketball, hockey, football, baseball....

Pre sophisticated steroid testing and detection era as well. See baseball.as the prime example.
 

steve141

Registered User
Aug 13, 2009
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Seriously though, I don't know how anyone could claim this and there is nothing scientific to back it up. It's almost as silly as saying Orr wouldn't win any Norris' now. No one knows how either player would do if transported to another era.

Of course it's all speculation. We don't know.

My point is that I don't think any of the seasons Lidstrom has played in his current career would have impressed the Norris voters in the 70s enough to give him the trophy over the people who actually recieved it.

1970-1975: Orr's offensive numbers are simply too impressive. Lidstrom doesn't touch these seasons.
1976, 1978, 1979: Potvin's offense in these season's is also better than any season Lidstrom has put together. You'd have to value subtle defensive play very highly to consider Lidstrom here, and I don't think the Norris voters would tend to do that.
1977,1980: Robinson's are really the only two Norrises Lidstrom can compete with. And I think even given comparable offense the 70s voters would still have gone with the dynamic Canadien over the soft Euro.
 
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