Lemieux: NHLers missed out on best deal

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Brent Burns Beard

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Feb 27, 2002
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Resolute said:
The same way a 24% rollback with a worthless luxury tax and virtually nothing else in the way of salary controls would have been great for the owners?
interesting ...

so if thats the case, then i suppose now you support the players holding out on this deal, since if you consider the players offer unreasonable and then equate it to this current deal, you must now consider the owners to be screwing the players.

i agree.

dr
 

R0CKET

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scaredsensfan said:
How could a 42.5 million cap with no floor, lower than 100% qualifying offers, no room for movement upwards or anything be better than a cap thats 3 million lower, has arbitration, QO at 110, 105 and 100 percent and the possibility to go up (and admittedly down)?

Hmmm...that's a really tough one lets see?

Ah yes here it is, the actually would have made 30% of 1.5 Billoin dollars by now.

I don't care how many nickles and dimes you claim they have found by getting this stupid little thing or that it sure as hell isn't going to get pay for the 500 Mllion that they lost by not inking the deal.

Penny wise and pound foolish...

And then there's that irrellevant item about maintaining the integrity of having a season for the fans they just bent over to be able to squeeze that alleged nickle or dime from the hands of the hated owners.

My god make it stop.
 

SuperUnknown

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scaredsensfan said:
How could a 42.5 million cap with no floor, lower than 100% qualifying offers, no room for movement upwards or anything be better than a cap thats 3 million lower, has arbitration, QO at 110, 105 and 100 percent and the possibility to go up (and admittedly down)?

That was an offer though, could have been negociated... For sure the players had more power then to negociate and they could have gotten a better deal then they'll get.
 

kdb209

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Smail said:
Originally Posted by scaredsensfan
How could a 42.5 million cap with no floor, lower than 100% qualifying offers, no room for movement upwards or anything be better than a cap thats 3 million lower, has arbitration, QO at 110, 105 and 100 percent and the possibility to go up (and admittedly down)?
That was an offer though, could have been negociated... For sure the players had more power then to negociate and they could have gotten a better deal then they'll get.

And remember that if the players could have swallowed the L word back in Feb they could have had a $40M cap, a $29.8M Floor (both not including benefits - $32M/$42.2M with), 50/50 profit sharing, enough revenue sharing to support a $30M floor, a third of a season of lost salary, 54% of all '05 playoff revenue, and would be looking forward to 54% of a much less damaged revenue stream.

Tell me with a straight face how the current rumored deal is a better deal than that.
 

Tekneek

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A CBA could have been done much faster if it needed to be. If they had decided to get it done and get on the ice to finish off a real short season, they could have made it happen.

Given the time of year now, they can afford to take their time. The next big day in terms of dispute/debate/legal activity is if July 1 comes and goes before a new CBA is put into effect. As long as they roll it out before then, they are going to be doing just fine.
 

arnie

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MontrealCruiser_83 said:
I don't see Kovalev playing past 35 so I doubt he'd be interested in signing with the lowly pens for the rest of his career. I also doubt he'd be interested in "anchoring the second line".

Kovalev's been a 40 goal scorer in Pgh and 20 goal scorer every place else. And you think that he wouldn't go back to the Pens in a heartbeat? Hah.
 

cassius

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arnie said:
Kovalev's been a 40 goal scorer in Pgh and 20 goal scorer every place else. And you think that he wouldn't go back to the Pens in a heartbeat? Hah.
I can't believe im agreeing with arnie . . .

:dunno:
 

me2

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scaredsensfan said:
How could a 42.5 million cap with no floor, lower than 100% qualifying offers, no room for movement upwards or anything be better than a cap thats 3 million lower, has arbitration, QO at 110, 105 and 100 percent and the possibility to go up (and admittedly down)?


I don't believe that $42.5m (or $44.7m if you believe Conway) came with the nasty 54% linkage/escrow the current deal is supposed to. If this has 54% linkage then the $42.5m-$44.7m deal kicks butt.
 

417

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arnie said:
Kovalev's been a 40 goal scorer in Pgh and 20 goal scorer every place else. And you think that he wouldn't go back to the Pens in a heartbeat? Hah.

Nobody know's where he's going to sign, you don't and neither do I, the Habs have as good a chance as the Pens and pretty much every other team in the NHL does as well

Of course he has some attachments to Pitsburgh, but he did enjoy playing in Montreal, say what you want about him having the best years of his career there, but playing in front of a packed house of 21 673 screaming fans for 41 games a year isin't too shabby either, neither is being a key member of a franchise that's young and on the up and up, both teams are young and could use a player like Kovalev, but I think Montreal may offer him the best chance to win now, rather than Pitsburgh, he did mention that if the contract offered by the Habs is competitive he'd love to come back, take it for what it's worth...

Also team a team like Detroit might snatch him up before Montreal or Pitsburgh even have the chance to talk to him, hard to say, no team has a clear advantage in these sweepstakes
 

Tawnos

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R0CKET said:
Hmmm...that's a really tough one lets see?

Ah yes here it is, the actually would have made 30% of 1.5 Billoin dollars by now.

I don't care how many nickles and dimes you claim they have found by getting this stupid little thing or that it sure as hell isn't going to get pay for the 500 Mllion that they lost by not inking the deal.

Penny wise and pound foolish...

And then there's that irrellevant item about maintaining the integrity of having a season for the fans they just bent over to be able to squeeze that alleged nickle or dime from the hands of the hated owners.

My god make it stop.

The $500 million they lost by not inking the deal? Well, in that sense, you can say the same thing about the owners. I bet they're gonna lose more money next season than they did in 03-04 because of the damage that was done to the sport. They would've lost less had they accepted the $49 million proposal from the union. That's where the huge fallacy in your argument is. Neither side has any excuses for not getting the deal done in February.

That said, in the long run, this deal will be better than what they had in February.
 

SuperUnknown

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kdb209 said:
And remember that if the players could have swallowed the L word back in Feb they could have had a $40M cap, a $29.8M Floor (both not including benefits - $32M/$42.2M with), 50/50 profit sharing, enough revenue sharing to support a $30M floor, a third of a season of lost salary, 54% of all '05 playoff revenue, and would be looking forward to 54% of a much less damaged revenue stream.

Tell me with a straight face how the current rumored deal is a better deal than that.

They could have had more than that. This was the owners offer, which could have been negociated some at that time.
 

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Tawnos said:
The $500 million they lost by not inking the deal? Well, in that sense, you can say the same thing about the owners. I bet they're gonna lose more money next season than they did in 03-04 because of the damage that was done to the sport. They would've lost less had they accepted the $49 million proposal from the union. That's where the huge fallacy in your argument is. Neither side has any excuses for not getting the deal done in February.

That said, in the long run, this deal will be better than what they had in February.

Wow... I can't believe I hear this. The owners got linkage, which kinda guarantees profits in the long term. Something which the $49 million profit (with linkage upwards only with a crap base year) would have not achieved!!
 

MarkZackKarl

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Smail said:
Wow... I can't believe I hear this. The owners got linkage, which kinda guarantees profits in the long term. Something which the $49 million profit (with linkage upwards only with a crap base year) would have not achieved!!

Maybe not guaranteed profits, but what business outside sports leagues (at least some of them, now NHL and NFL) have guaranteed profits? Honestly, I can see why the owners wnat this, but the stupidity of fans saying that they deserve it (or 'should' make profits) regardless of incompetence or bad management makes me shake my head in disbelief. :shakehead
 

Tawnos

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Smail said:
Wow... I can't believe I hear this. The owners got linkage, which kinda guarantees profits in the long term. Something which the $49 million profit (with linkage upwards only with a crap base year) would have not achieved!!

I didn't say that their deal now isn't better for them. I'm saying if you're thinking only short term, the owners screwed themselves as much this season as the players did. I said next season they'll lose more than 03-04. That doesn't mean that it will continue to bleed in 06-07.
 

SuperUnknown

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scaredsensfan said:
Maybe not guaranteed profits, but what business outside sports leagues (at least some of them, now NHL and NFL) have guaranteed profits? Honestly, I can see why the owners wnat this, but the stupidity of fans saying that they deserve it (or 'should' make profits) regardless of incompetence or bad management makes me shake my head in disbelief. :shakehead

We're talking about labour negociations. The NHL as a whole wants to be profitable, which is good for everyone (the players, the owners, the fans) in the long term. A salary cap will give a chance to every team to make some profit if they're well run.

As well, I'd like to hear what's your definition of a competent management: one that ices a good team or one that makes profits? If you say it's to make profits, then teams like the Minnessota Wild can be example for good management (and I'm sure you'd like all teams to follow their business plan). If you say that ices a good team, then some teams could be set as an example while they're making heavy losses. In a non capped league (or one where the difference in payroll is large), the problem is that there will be teams willing to spend like crazy and making a loss to win, while the teams that want to stay financially responsible will have to use other means to get a chance to win (the trap?) because they can't land similar talent.

In other words, in sports league, if you want every team to make the efforts to be the most competitive possible on the ice, you'll need a setup where the payroll difference between teams can't be too high. Then, management has to focus on ice operations, which is good for the fans. Once that is done, they can take care of the financial issues, but they're able to do so after taking care of the on-ice product.

A last word about "guaranteed profits". The NHL will have to work for it, because they need to pull enough revenues so that their 46% of revenues covers their costs of operation. As the revenues grow and their fixed costs becomes a lower percentage of total revenues, their profit share will rise. In other words, to get profits, the owners still have to work on growing the game. As well, as the revenues grow, the players benefit because it means their 54% is a larger amount (and it means they will be able to grow that % in the future CBA negociations). For the fans, if the game grows, it probably means a better on ice product, which is also a good thing for them. Win-win-win situation. That's why the capitalistic economy is based on profits. If the business in your country are making profits, the economy goes well and you improve your standard of living. If the business in your country are making losses, the economy will not grow like it should, people will be laid off and it won't be such a good time for the workers. It's a circle. What this means for the workers is that their business needs to make profit, but not too much (now look back at the profit sharing offer by the NHL as a way to ensure this happens).
 

Mothra

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tom_servo said:
Pshaw.

With the unprecedented turnover we're going to see, there's no telling what teams will look like. The Pens, in particular, have the room and motivation to add talent. So perhaps you were a bit hasty with your comment.

exactly....in a normal year there are surprise teams (good and bad).....after missing a season, and whats sure to be an unprecedented amount of player movement, there is no telling who will be good next season
 

HckyFght*

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He's brave to play. If I were a fourth liner I'd take any shot I could find to hammer an owner.




....ok, I'm just saying that because I'm a Caps fan and I hate the man. :p:

The mere concept of a "player-owner" is a travesty. If you're a referee and the player you are officiating has the power to fire you, what does that do to the credibility and integrity of the game itself?

Plus, Mario's outrageous salary demands helped bankrupt his team to the point where they simply had to hand over the keys to him. By himself ML is simply one of the worst things that has happened to hockey in the last decade and a big symptom of what is wrong with the game from the top down.
-HckyFght
 

WVP

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HckyFght said:
Plus, Mario's outrageous salary demands helped bankrupt his team to the point where they simply had to hand over the keys to him. By himself ML is simply one of the worst things that has happened to hockey in the last decade and a big symptom of what is wrong with the game from the top down.
-HckyFght
Hmmm....I'm not sure you're gonna get much support there, pal.
 

Don'tcry4mejanhrdina

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HckyFght said:
The mere concept of a "player-owner" is a travesty. If you're a referee and the player you are officiating has the power to fire you, what does that do to the credibility and integrity of the game itself?

Plus, Mario's outrageous salary demands helped bankrupt his team to the point where they simply had to hand over the keys to him. By himself ML is simply one of the worst things that has happened to hockey in the last decade and a big symptom of what is wrong with the game from the top down.
-HckyFght
Wow.
 

arnie

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417 TO MTL said:
Nobody know's where he's going to sign, you don't and neither do I, the Habs have as good a chance as the Pens and pretty much every other team in the NHL does as well

Of course he has some attachments to Pitsburgh, but he did enjoy playing in Montreal, say what you want about him having the best years of his career there, but playing in front of a packed house of 21 673 screaming fans for 41 games a year isin't too shabby either, neither is being a key member of a franchise that's young and on the up and up, both teams are young and could use a player like Kovalev, but I think Montreal may offer him the best chance to win now, rather than Pitsburgh, he did mention that if the contract offered by the Habs is competitive he'd love to come back, take it for what it's worth...
You know, this is all pure fantasy.
 
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