Legace won't blame picket line crossing

[Hoss]

Filling in a position temporarily while displacing the original worker = scab

Therefore any NHL player in Europe is a scab. They have no intention of staying. Also they are worse than scabs in that prices for the fans will increase, so maybe you're right, we should call them leeches. Sound better?

No your definition of scab is jaded by your anger over the situation. Outbidding or outperforming another party for a specific job for tender is part of good business.
There are no labor disputes in any of the European leagues therefore the players cannot be defined as scabs. You may not like them and that's fine, but calling them scabs is hollow and diminishes your arguement. Because what you are saying is illogical and contrary to the facts on hand.

 

[maci4life]

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=Scab

Main Entry: 1scab
Pronunciation: 'skab
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Swedish skabbr scab; akin to Old English sceabb scab, Latin scabere to scratch -- more at SHAVE
1 : scabies of domestic animals
2 : a crust of hardened blood and serum over a wound
3 a : a contemptible person b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms4 : any of various bacterial or fungus diseases of plants characterized by crustaceous spots; also : one of the spots

thank you for proving the meaning of a scab. ALL NHL players playing in other leagues other than the NHL are playing for less money.

 

[maci4life]

That's not hypocritical at all! The NHL is trying to force the players to accept a deal by blackmailing them with economic hardship. All unions expect you to man your share of pickets if you want your strike pay, if you can do something to mitigate the damage your employer is inflicting on you by working that's just swell.

It's all very easy to sit on the outside and call them hypocites but they have mortgage payments due as well. BTW that is exactly the point of the picket: to impede the flow of replacement workers and to draw public attention to the cause.

Hardship???? I guess you forgot how much money they make. Compare it to your own and you tell me who's having economic hardship!! ( obviously i don't know how much you make), but chances are you don't make the league average of 1.8 million ( i think thats what it was ).

 

[Hoss]

thank you for proving the meaning of a scab. ALL NHL players playing in other leagues other than the NHL are playing for less money.

You almost get apoint for this one, but no, you are wrong. The NHL players are not undercutting the market of the leagues they are playing in. The market conditions of the league's they are now playing in have a lower economic standing and lower rate of compensation.

 

[Hoss]

Hardship???? I guess you forgot how much money they make. Compare it to your own and you tell me who's having economic hardship!! ( obviously i don't know how much you make), but chances are you don't make the league average of 1.8 million ( i think thats what it was ).

Players who are making close to the league minimum, and there are alot of them, are certainly experiencing financial hardship. For every Holik at $9m, how many players at $300k does there have to be to average out $1.8m / player?

 

[Motown Beatdown]

thank you for proving the meaning of a scab. ALL NHL players playing in other leagues other than the NHL are playing for less money.

How do you figure? They are being paid market value in those leagues. And dont come back with it's less money than they made in the NHL. It's moot point, since they are LOCKED OUT.

It's pretty pathetic some people dont know the difference between a strike and a lockout.

 

[tantalum]

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=Scab

Main Entry: 1scab
Pronunciation: 'skab
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Swedish skabbr scab; akin to Old English sceabb scab, Latin scabere to scratch -- more at SHAVE
1 : scabies of domestic animals
2 : a crust of hardened blood and serum over a wound
3 a : a contemptible person b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms4 : any of various bacterial or fungus diseases of plants characterized by crustaceous spots; also : one of the spots

Thanks. So definition 3b-1 and 3b-3 is a worker who refuses to join a labour union which is what anyone being a replacement worker would be a scab. Fine everyone understands that one.

But thanks to definition 3b-4 we now know that NHL players playing in Europe can be considered scabs as they play for less than union wages (i.e. less than what they would make in the NHL under a new CBA) and under non-union terms (i.e. there are no unions affiliated with the PA that participate in those leagues and regulate the industry in favour of worker rights). No mention of a strike in that fourth definition at all.

 

[CGG]

Thanks. So definition 3b-1 and 3b-3 is a worker who refuses to join a labour union which is what anyone being a replacement worker would be a scab. Fine everyone understands that one.

But thanks to definition 3b-4 we now know that NHL players playing in Europe can be considered scabs as they play for less than union wages (i.e. less than what they would make in the NHL under a new CBA) and under non-union terms (i.e. there are no unions affiliated with the PA that participate in those leagues and regulate the industry in favour of worker rights). No mention of a strike in that fourth definition at all.

You're really trying hard here to label NHL players in Europe as scabs. Go ahead and call them scabs if it helps you sleep better at night. It ain't right though. If a player tried to play in the NHL without all the benefits of the union and tried to undercut union wages (i.e. asked for less than the league minimum) and somehow succeeded, that would be a scab. That's what the definition says.

A locked out worker cannot work for union wages because they are locked out. Therefore, they are seeking employment elsewhere. Regardless of what they make, this does not make them scabs. How many people think that referees are scabs when they build cabinets or sell cars for less than what they would be making if the NHL didn't shut down? They're all unionized, and working for less than their regular union wage.

 

[tantalum]

You're really trying hard here to label NHL players in Europe as scabs. Go ahead and call them scabs if it helps you sleep better at night. It ain't right though. If a player tried to play in the NHL without all the benefits of the union and tried to undercut union wages (i.e. asked for less than the league minimum) and somehow succeeded, that would be a scab. That's what the definition says.

A locked out worker cannot work for union wages because they are locked out. Therefore, they are seeking employment elsewhere. Regardless of what they make, this does not make them scabs. How many people think that referees are scabs when they build cabinets or sell cars for less than what they would be making if the NHL didn't shut down? They're all unionized, and working for less than their regular union wage.

Umm. that would be a different industry wouldn't it in the referee case. The hockey players currently belong to a union and are undercutting the unions point of view by doing the things they are doing. So it's not really a stretch at all...that is EXACTLY what that definition is getting at IMO (And again there is no distniction of strike or lockout in that). If the players wanted to sell cars or real estate no problem. But the whole definition of "scab" revolves around undercutting the unions position which is exactly what these players are doing.

And for the record I've never called them scabs....just hypocrites. But now I may just start calling them scabs as the definition seems to fit and it sure gets a rise out of the pro-PA types.

 

[CGG]

Umm. that would be a different industry wouldn't it in the referee case. The hockey players currently belong to a union and are undercutting the unions point of view by doing the things they are doing. So it's not really a stretch at all...that is EXACTLY what that definition is getting at IMO (And again there is no distniction of strike or lockout in that). If the players wanted to sell cars or real estate no problem. But the whole definition of "scab" revolves around undercutting the unions position which is exactly what these players are doing.

And for the record I've never called them scabs....just hypocrites. But now I may just start calling them scabs as the definition seems to fit and it sure gets a rise out of the pro-PA types.

European hockey might as well be a completely different industry as well. I've got no problem with you calling them hypocrites. I even agree with that. They're just not scabs though. Whoever wrote that definition was not thinking about the NHL. It's for workers who work at a union shop alongside union members who try to offer their services for less than what the guy next to them on the line is making.

The players in Europe have the full blessing of their union. Another thing that makes them not scabs. I fail to see how they are undercutting the union's point of view. If it were a strike, maybe. But not during a lockout.

 

[Levitate]

But thanks to definition 3b-4 we now know that NHL players playing in Europe can be considered scabs as they play for less than union wages (i.e. less than what they would make in the NHL under a new CBA) and under non-union terms (i.e. there are no unions affiliated with the PA that participate in those leagues and regulate the industry in favour of worker rights). No mention of a strike in that fourth definition at all.

this is a rather tortured interpretation of the definition.

You can't take the union wages they'd make and the union rules they'd play under in one job and apply it to another and then say since they're working for less, they're scabs. the NHL and the european leagues aren't the same job markets, aren't under the same unions, etc etc etc. the NHLPA and NHL have nothing to do with the european leagues and attempting to apply their rules in such a way makes no sense.

a player would be a scab if they crossed the picket line to play in the NHL, twisting the definition to try to label NHLers playing in europe as scabs is just that, twisting the definition.

if you want to call them something else deragatory, fine, the point is just that you're using the word incorrectly

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

That's not hypocritical at all! The NHL is trying to force the players to accept a deal by blackmailing them with economic hardship. All unions expect you to man your share of pickets if you want your strike pay, if you can do something to mitigate the damage your employer is inflicting on you by working that's just swell.

It's all very easy to sit on the outside and call them hypocites but they have mortgage payments due as well. BTW that is exactly the point of the picket: to impede the flow of replacement workers and to draw public attention to the cause.

They have mortgage payments as well? THat's your justification? Good god, maybe if they bought normal sized houses, normally priced vehicles and didn't generally waste their money like 90% of the rich people then they would have something to complain about...

 

[PecaFan]

That's not hypocritical at all! The NHL is trying to force the players to accept a deal by blackmailing them with economic hardship.

It's all very easy to sit on the outside and call them hypocites but they have mortgage payments due as well.

And the union is trying to force the owners to accept a deal by blackmailing them with economic hardship. And owners have mortgage payments to make as well, not to mention millions of dollars in other expenses.

So both sides are in exactly the same position, induring hardship, and exerting bargaining pressure. But to you, one side is evil, and the other righteous.

That, my friend, is bias.

 

[Hoss]

And the union is trying to force the owners to accept a deal by blackmailing them with economic hardship. And owners have mortgage payments to make as well, not to mention millions of dollars in other expenses.

So both sides are in exactly the same position, induring hardship, and exerting bargaining pressure. But to you, one side is evil, and the other righteous.

That, my friend, is bias.

If the players were had inititiated the shut down trying to force the owners to put more ducats in thier pockets, I would definately agree with you. The NHLPA is trying to hang onto as much of what they earned and were guaranteed under contracts, the NHL doesn't like the deal anymore and refuse to do business until their house is in order.

 

[Timmy]

If the players were had inititiated the shut down trying to force the owners to put more ducats in thier pockets, I would definately agree with you. The NHLPA is trying to hang onto as much of what they earned and were guaranteed under contracts, the NHL doesn't like the deal anymore and refuse to do business until their house is in order.

The players' contracts are not being called into question. The NHLPA initiated the offer of a 24% rollback, not the NHL.

The negotiation of those contracts are governed by a Collective Bargaining Agreement, the expiry date of which everyone was well aware of.

Nobody's going to take away what the players have earned, and their salaries have far outstripped inflation and revenues and will provide the NHLPA members with a comfortable compensation even if is has plateaued.

The owners want to honour existing contracts, have QO's at around 85%, and have a system in place where salaries no longer outpace revenues.

It is like the airlines asking pilots to take a cut to save the airline. The pilot can either try to get a job a Qantas, or take the rollback.

I'm not pro-owner or anti-player, I am pro healthy league, and supporting the owners in this attempt to control costs is the only way I can see it working in the long run.

Revenue sharing when the league as a whole is losing money doesn't really work for me. TV revenue, merchandising, etc, are fine, but I am very wary about sharing gate revenue, which could reduce the individual owners drive to get community, fan, and corporate support on their own.

 

[no13matssundin]

Players who are making close to the league minimum, and there are alot of them, are certainly experiencing financial hardship. For every Holik at $9m, how many players at $300k does there have to be to average out $1.8m / player?

Whoa whoa whoa.... are you telling me that 300K a year is "financial hardship"?!??!?!

What frikkin planet do YOU live on? Does the sky rain gold boullion in it? It must be tough making 10 times the average income of every other person on the continent to skate around and shoot a rubber puck for 2/3rds of the year. Ya, a real nightmare there.

People like you who say nonsense like the above have absolutely no credibility in anyones' eyes because you, like the PA, are firmly grounded in LA-LA Land.

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

Whoa whoa whoa.... are you telling me that 300K a year is "financial hardship"?!??!?!

What frikkin planet do YOU live on? Does the sky rain gold boullion in it? It must be tough making 10 times the average income of every other person on the continent to skate around and shoot a rubber puck for 2/3rds of the year. Ya, a real nightmare there.

People like you who say nonsense like the above have absolutely no credibility in anyones' eyes because you, like the PA, are firmly grounded in LA-LA Land.

300K for playing a damn game and they're not happy... UNBELIEVABLE...

 

[Pepper]

I guess you guys don't own dogs...

 

[Mxpunk]

I agree that "scab" isn't the proper term to use for those playing in Europe, but it is still hypocritical to play in Europe/the minors for less money when the players' main argument is for more money...I remember the HUGE supermarket strike a couple of years ago in California. ALL the employees picketed, and none of them went to work at other non-union supermarkets. These people had A LOT less money than the players, yet they still had the strength to get up every morning and picket all day. It's the whole idea of unity; those who really care about the cause they're standing up for should not be going to play/work somewhere else and wait for the phone call of when things are ok.

Anyway, as for the "scab" debate, here is an article by Spector:
http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/3469096

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Scab is a union term. And since the PA is in fact an association and not a union (yeah, right), the term used should be "replacement player". Is there any debate as to whether players such as Lecavalier, Thornton, Naslund et al were "replacing" others in Europe this season? You COULD make a case for Kovalchuk NOT being one, since he apparently would have stayed in Russia regardless (at least, contractually he had to). But these other guys were hired guns with absolutely NO intention of staying in Europe had negotiations gone differently over here in North America.

So, if you readily accepted the fact that the association divided itself up into those that stayed behind and those that went overseas, how could you NOT accept some players deciding to replace these guys next October, and some others deciding against it?

 

[Brewleaguer]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=118168







Wow an NHL player that understands...amazing

What Manny seems to forget is WHERE he is playing (or suppose to play). Detroit is a BIG union town and they don't take very well to scabs or other willing to cross ANY union line.

 

[Leadzedder]

I agree that "scab" isn't the proper term to use for those playing in Europe, but it is still hypocritical to play in Europe/the minors for less money when the players' main argument is for more money...I remember the HUGE supermarket strike a couple of years ago in California. ALL the employees picketed, and none of them went to work at other non-union supermarkets. These people had A LOT less money than the players, yet they still had the strength to get up every morning and picket all day. It's the whole idea of unity; those who really care about the cause they're standing up for should not be going to play/work somewhere else and wait for the phone call of when things are ok.

Anyway, as for the "scab" debate, here is an article by Spector:
http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/3469096

Hockey is a tad different from bagging groceries. I'm sure it takes less time to "take the rust off". It's not a relevant comparison.