Lecavalier Division Final: Dukla Jihlava vs West Lafayette Lion Tamers

Theokritos

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Apr 6, 2010
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Coach: Anatoliy Tarasov
Assistant Coach: Billy Reay

George Hay - Newsy Lalonde (A) - Bill Cook (A)
Vladimir Krutov - Ted Kennedy (C) - Aleksandr Maltsev
Rick Nash - Neil Colville - Harry Oliver
Tony Leswick - Steve Kasper - Frank Finnigan
Dave Trottier, Claude Giroux

Hod Stuart - Tim Horton
Jim Neilson - Red Horner
Rod Seiling - Pat Egan
Gennadiy Tsygankov

Charlie Gardiner
Dave Kerr

PP1
Newsy Lalonde - Aleksandr Maltsev - Bill Cook
Pat Egan - Hod Stuart

PP2
Vladimir Krutov - Ted Kennedy - Harry Oliver
Tim Horton - Red Horner

PK1: Steve Kasper - Frank Finnigan - Jim Neilson - Tim Horton
PK2: Neil Colville - Tony Leswick - Hod Stuart - Rod Seiling

Forward Minutes
Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Lalonde |14| 5 | 0 | 19
Cook| 14 | 5 | 0 | 19
Hay | 14 | 0 | 0 |14
Krutov| 14 | 2 | 0 |16
Kennedy| 14 | 2 | 0 | 16
Maltsev | 14 | 5 | 0 | 19
Nash| 12 | 0 | 0 | 12
Colville| 12 | 0 | 3 | 15
Oliver| 12 | 2 | 0 | 14
Leswick| 6 | 0 | 3 | 9
Kasper| 6 | 0 | 4 | 10
Finnigan | 6 | 0 | 4 | 10
TOTAL | 138 | 21 | 14 | 173

Defensemen Minutes
Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Horton | 19 | 2 | 5 | 26
Stuart| 19 | 5 | 2 | 26
Neilson| 15 | 0 | 5 | 20
Horner| 14 | 2 | 0 | 16
Egan| 12 | 5 | 0 | 17
Seiling | 13 | 0 | 2 | 15
TOTAL | 92 | 14 | 14 | 120

 

Theokritos

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PP1:
Tim Kerr
Denis Savard - Gordie Howe
Guy Lapointe - Paul Kariya

PP2:
Syd Howe - Marty Barry - Cooney Weiland
Lester Patrick - Brent Seabrook

PK1:
Ken Mosdell - Bob Pulford
Scott Stevens - Jack Crawford

PK2:
Syd Howe - Cooney Weiland
Guy Lapointe - Brent Seabrook



Forward Minutes
Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Gordie Howe | 16 | 5 | 2 | 23
Syd Howe | 13 | 3 | 3 | 19
Paul Kariya | 14 | 5 | 0 |19
Marty Barry | 14 | 3 | 0 |17
Denis Savard | 12 | 4 | 0 | 16
Bob Pulford | 12 | 0 | 4 | 16
Cooney Weiland | 11 | 2 | 2 | 15
Dave Taylor | 12 | 0 | 0 | 12
Shane Doan | 12 | 0 | 0 | 12
Ken Mosdell | 8 | 0 | 3 | 11
Tim Kerr | 6 | 4 | 0 | 10
Ed Sandford | 7 | 0 | 0 | 7
TOTAL | 138 | 26* | 14 | 177*

Defensemen Minutes
Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Scott Stevens | 20 | 0 | 4 | 24
Guy Lapointe | 17 | 4 | 2 | 23
Lester Patrick | 17 | 3 | 0 | 20
Jack Crawford | 16 | 0 | 4 | 20
Glen Harmon | 11 | 0 | 1 | 13
Brent Seabrook | 11 | 2 | 3 | 16
TOTAL | 92 | 9* | 14 | 115*
*Kariya 5 minutes PP point
 

Sprague Cleghorn

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Aug 14, 2013
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Edmonton, KY
To get things started, I'd like to do a compare our first unit to their counterpart, since they will probably be facing each other the bulk of the time.

First, let's talk strictly about talent.

Hay is an above average 2nd line LW, while I'd classify Kariya as a weak 1st line LW. Howe is better than Cook by let's say one or two tiers. You've got me beat at both wings, however, Lalonde is significantly better than Barry. As I have said previously, Barry's talent level is that befitting of an average 2nd line C, while Lalonde is that of an average 1st line C. Does the massive difference in talent between Lalonde and Barry make up for the smaller differences between Hay vs Kariya and Howe vs Cook?

As for our 1st pairings, the difference between Stevens and Horton is microscopic, while Lapointe has a small advantage over Stuart.

Now, to matchup related stuff.

Hay will be lining up against Howe. If you haven't read Hay's bio, his defensive play is prominently mentioned. I don't expect Hay to completely shutdown Howe, but he'll at least do a decent job to prevent Howe from completely destroying everyone. In comparison, I would say the matchup between Hay's counterpart at LW and Cook is a significantly bigger mismatch, even though Kariya is better than Hay in a vacuum. At this level, Kariya is a non-factor defensively and he's very soft. This is a recipe for disaster against Cook, who is a top-20 offensive player of all-time, and very physical. At least Howe will be kept somewhat in check by Hay, while Cook will be free of any defensive pressure from the LW position. Also, Cook is decent defensively at this level, and he has the speed to cover Kariya in transition. Combining the above with Cook pounding Kariya in our defensive zone, and Kariya's less than stellar playoff history could mean that Kariya's effectiveness against our first line could be less than optimal. If Kariya is a non-factor offensively, then your line is reduced to 2/3 its strength, since if Kariya isn't scoring, then he's pretty much doing nothing of value. In comparison, if Hay is not scoring, he's at least back-checking and/or doing the little things, so he's not being completely useless.

As for Lalonde vs Barry, this is a good matchup. Barry is respectable defensively, and he's big and strong, which are important attributes to defend against Lalonde. Lalonde is better than Barry offensively, so Barry is going to have to work harder in his defensive zone than Lalonde in his. Naturally, more energy spent defending means less energy available for offense, and this could cut into Barry's offensive value.

My two defenseman are both very big, physical, and both are mobile. I would feel confident with either Horton or Stuart going up against Howe in the corners, in front of the net or in transition. The best way to combat Howe is with sheer physical strength, and both sides of the ice will have two guys that were known for possessing this attribute. Howe probably can not be completely shutdown, but he can be slowed down, and I feel the pairing I've got can reduce Howe's effectiveness by quite a bit. Since both my defenseman are pretty mobile (Stuart moreso than Horton), they will be able to defend against Kariya's speed too.

With all the talk above about the lack of someone keeping Cook in check, you guys have a solid solution on D with Stevens. Stevens vs Cook in the corners, or in front of the net should be a nasty battle. Same goes for Lalonde vs Stevens. One thing that could be worrisome about Cook vs Stevens is Stevens' lack of footspeed. In transition, this could be trouble. At least you guys have Lapointe who's a pretty good skater. Lapointe's pretty tough too, so he doesn't look like he's going to be intimidated.
 

markrander87

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Jan 22, 2010
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Again Stoneberg and I will try pour best to join the series. Right after the bay I see some chemistry issues when your 2 top players who are on the same line are both primarily goal scorers. I think it's obvious we will be using our 3rd line to match up against their first line. Bob Pulford and Cooney Weiland are a great combo to match up against those 2.

Another round another massive advantage for the Lion Tamers in nets. I think it goes without saying the largest and most clear advantage for any team in the series is goaltending. Does Dukla have the skaters and chemistry to overcome this obvious advantage for West Lafayette?
 

markrander87

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Jan 22, 2010
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When has Scott Stevens ever been noted to have trouble with Foot speed? Let alone foot speed from a guy like Bill Cook? Wow you are over selling Cooks speed.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Brooklyn
When has Scott Stevens ever been noted to have trouble with Foot speed? Let alone foot speed from a guy like Bill Cook? Wow you are over selling Cooks speed.

In fact, if you read profiles of Devils-era Scott Stevens, they always talk about how his skating ability was a big part of his ability to catch players in the neutral zone with open ice hits. I mean, he was no Paul Coffey or Scott Niedermayer by any means, but Stevens was an above average skater until he was pushing 40.
 

markrander87

Registered User
Jan 22, 2010
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In fact, if you read profiles of Devils-era Scott Stevens, they always talk about how his skating ability was a big part of his ability to catch players in the neutral zone with open ice hits. I mean, he was no Paul Coffey or Scott Niedermayer by any means, but Stevens was an above average skater until he was pushing 40.

I was thinking the same thing but didn't have any hard evidence. I was hoping you would weigh in on this, thanks TDMM for the insight.
 

Sprague Cleghorn

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Edmonton, KY
I reached the conclusion that Stevens lacked foot speed due to going to his bio and using the ctr+f command to search for speed. I got 0 results, so I thought he was either slow or average.
 

Sprague Cleghorn

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Aug 14, 2013
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Edmonton, KY
Again Stoneberg and I will try pour best to join the series.

Looking forward to it. Good thing I posted that Stevens was slow so that everyone got riled up. I thought I was going to be arguing with myself in here.

Right after the bay I see some chemistry issues when your 2 top players who are on the same line are both primarily goal scorers.

Again, both Lalonde and Cook have proven chemistry. Both played together for two very successful years in Saskatoon, and that was when Lalonde was clearly past his prime while Cook was only starting to enter his. It's only natural that the pairing would be better if they were in their primes. Also, it's not like Cook was devoid of playmaking.

These are his top-10 assists finishes:

NHL: 3, 6, 8
WCHL/WHL: 1, 2, 2, 7

During his time with Lalonde, Cook managed 1st and 2nd place finishes in assists. Overall, Cook's top-10 assists record is probably better than a bunch of guys that are identified primarily as playmakers. To me Cook can also clearly dish the puck, and so could Lalonde as evidenced by his time with other goal first forwards such as Pitre, Malone, O. Cleghorn and obviously Cook. Before the forward pass era, there were a quite a few successful goal heavy pairings. With no forward passing in the offensive zone, it made sense to have multiple shooting options on a line. Are we going to be saying that these successful pairings wouldn't work?

Also, Lalonde thinks of himself as a playmaker first:

Lalonde interview by the Ottawa Citizen: 20 March 1954 said:
"Honestly," he mused, "I never see myself as a Richard, a Howe or a Lindsay. My forte was playmaking and my stride deceptively fast. Every time I see Toronto play I see myself in Teeder Kennedy, but with a helluva lot more goals!"

I think it's obvious we will be using our 3rd line to match up against their first line. Bob Pulford and Cooney Weiland are a great combo to match up against those 2.

Sure. My 4th line will be spending a significant amount of their allotted even strength time against your 1st line. They will be seeing a small bump in their regular ice time for this series, as I'd like to send Leswick out there as much against Howe as possible. In addition to his 4th line duties, Leswick will be seeing his ice time significantly increased in this series. Leswick will sometimes be substituting Hay, Krutov or Trottier whenever Howe is out against them.

Leswick vs Howe via HHOF said:
The only player perhaps more dangerous to tick off was Gordie Howe - not only arguably the greatest player of all time, but perhaps the greatest fighter of all time too. Leswick fearlessly needled Mr. Hockey with great success. Like Richard, no one had as much success keeping Howe off of his game as Leswick did.

Leswick vs Howe via Ultimate Hockey said:
It was in shadowing the league's best players, however, that Leswick earned his stripes... some say Adams traded for Leswick so his boy, Gordie Howe, would not have to put up with the little NY Ranger pest anymore.

Hopefully, with Leswick in his face a lot of the time, Howe will lose his head and not be as focused on the game and take some dumb penalties.

Another round another massive advantage for the Lion Tamers in nets. I think it goes without saying the largest and most clear advantage for any team in the series is goaltending.

Agree, the Lions have the advantage in net. Nothing I can say about that, but Gardiner is about league average, which means that although Gardiner is not going to be single handedly winning games, he's not going to be single handedly losing them either.

Sorry, I am having a bit of a hard time understanding the meaning of your 2nd sentence, mostly due to the "any team" statement. What does your second sentence mean exactly? Are you saying that Plante is the largest advantage in this series or are you saying something along the line that differences in goaltending are much more magnified than any other position?

Does Dukla have the skaters and chemistry to overcome this obvious advantage for West Lafayette?

Plante is one man, and is one advantage only. You haven't stated any other advantages other than in net that your team has over mine yet, so I don't even know how to go about this question. If the only advantage your team truly has over mine is in net, then I guess the answer is yes?
 

Sprague Cleghorn

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Aug 14, 2013
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Edmonton, KY
One of the Lions' strengths is in goal. In comparison, one of my team's biggest advantages compared to the Lions is our 2nd lines. Every player on my 2nd line wouldn't look out of place on a 1st line. The only 2nd liner that could be considered strong on the Lions is Howe, who could also be considered a 1st liner. Savard is the 45-55th best C of all-time, meaning he is either a very weak 2nd liner or an elite 3rd liner. I don't have an exact range for Taylor but I'm guessing he would be in the same range as Savard on a RW list, meaning he's either a very weak 2nd liner or an elite 3rd liner. Howe is superior to Krutov, but the massive differences between Kennedy vs Savard, and Taylor vs Maltsev more then makes up for the difference between Howe and Krutov.

As for matchups, Taylor is a good matchup for Krutov as he was also known for his play on the boards and in front of the net. However, two big attributes that Krutov has but Taylor lacks are offense and speed. If we consider a 7 year VsX rank of around 150 as the lowest threshold for 2nd line offense, then Taylor is basically a blackhole offensively on a 2nd line as his seven year VsX ranks him 188th, which is equivalent to 3rd liner offense. The play could die on Taylor's stick quite a bit. As for speed, Taylor can do a good job defending against Krutov in the D zone, but in a quick transition play, Taylor could be in trouble.

I am also liking the Kennedy vs Savard matchup. Savard is the best offensive player on his line, and he will be going up against Kennedy, who is renowned for his fine defensive work. In addition, Kennedy's offense in the playoffs is superb. According to seventies' playoffs vsx study, Kennedy ranks 10th, which is a 97 spot jump from his ranking on the 7 year vsx list. Not only will Savard have to contend with Kennedy on the attack but he will also have to pay close attention to Kennedy on the defense. Although Savard rounded out into a respectable two-way player near the end of his career, he could be considered below average in a 25 team ATD setting, and I'm not sure he will be able to do an effective job defending against Kennedy.

Maltsev is also a very potent offensive weapon. There's no vsx score for Maltsev, but we could do a rough approximation for it. Maltsev's value is pretty much all offense, so his 33rd place ranking on the HOH top-C list must be solely derived from his offense. Looking at other centers in the same range as Maltsev whose resumes are based largely on their offense (Thornton, Stastny), I'd say Maltsev would roughly be top-45 in seven year vsx. Howe is 73rd on the list, but his vsx score is no doubt inflated by the war years (I think three of his seven vsx seasons are affected). I'm not sure what a more realistic score for Howe could be, so if anyone that has more in depth knowledge of the vsx system could jump in, that'd be great. Regardless, Maltsev would still be the significantly better offensive producer compared to Howe.

Offensively, my 2nd line is superior to the Lions, and if both lines are matched against each other, the Lions' 2nd line could be spending a bit more time in the defensive zone than what is ideal. Savard's effectiveness could strongly be reduced if this is the case, as his forte is offense and his defensive game is not very effective at this level.
 

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