Post-Game Talk: Leafs 4, Pens 3 - 30 Minutes Not Enough

[Pens x]

Indeed. But I'm not about to blame JR for expecting Wilson and Kuhn to be a respectable 4th liners. Both had been playing like 25-30 point players for two years. Same with Hagelin on the 3rd line. He's been bad, but I think most everybody thought last year was a down year and he would be at least back to his Ranger days of 30 points.

How has Kuhnhackl been playing like a 25-30 point player for 2 years? He’s played in 164 career games and has scored 32 points.
Wilson only played 3 games before he was scratched and shipped off to Detroit. I’m pretty sure JR knew he would be gone quickly before the season started.
So yea, Kuhn is a 30 point scorer...over 3 seasons

 

[Pens x]

Yeah the climb is no joke, Metro is the toughest division in the NHL and has been for a while. You drop back 2-4pts, you're fighting not only 1 or 2 teams, but likely 3 teams to earn your spot back before you floundered.

I still think the central has better teams overall. I’m really only nervous about playing Washington.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

I don't like Maatta-Hunwick pair, primarily in D-zone. Not that other pairings are doing much better, but these two play worse together imo. They were noticeable bad in the first of back to back Buffalo games and yesterday too.

I understand we don't have much of a choice right now with Schultz out, but Maatta plays better even with Ruhwedel.

 

[UnrealMachine]

How has Kuhnhackl been playing like a 25-30 point player for 2 years? He’s played in 164 career games and has scored 32 points.
Wilson only played 3 games before he was scratched and shipped off to Detroit. I’m pretty sure JR knew he would be gone quickly before the season started.
So yea, Kuhn is a 30 point scorer...over 3 seasons

Before this season Kuhnhackl had 31 points over 99 games, which is a 26-point pace over 82 games. Zero of those points were on the PP, which means all of those points were at even strength or short-handed. Those are strong numbers for a 4th line player and are borderline 3rd line for most teams.

 

[Coastal Kev]

edit for being an idiot

 

[Ogrezilla]

How has Kuhnhackl been playing like a 25-30 point player for 2 years? He’s played in 164 career games and has scored 32 points.
Wilson only played 3 games before he was scratched and shipped off to Detroit. I’m pretty sure JR knew he would be gone quickly before the season started.
So yea, Kuhn is a 30 point scorer...over 3 seasons

I'm talking about their pace over the two years prior to this summer ,when JR had to decide if they were good enough fourth liners. I said 25-30 because I hadn't checked the math and was going from memory.

Kuhn in 15-16 and 16-17 scored 31 points in 99 games. That's a 25 point pace. Wilson scored 32 points in 102 games in that time. That's also a 25 point pace. And he actually did score 26 points last year. Also, we did in fact win a Cup with each of them playing 4LW.

I don't think you can look at those numbers for Kuhn and say "wow, we have a hole at 4LW." Those are really good 4th line numbers. Now as I said, it would seem that Cullen was a HUGE part in why they could be that effective. But I don't remember anyone this summer upset about our 4th line left wings.

And as you just said, I also agree that JR planned to move one of those guys for Sheahan before the season started. So he also knew he had the 4C hole filled with Sheahan. I'm not disputing a hole at 3C. That's a big one for sure. And the Reaves one is what it is. The guys clearly want an enforcer in there. Reaves is the best you can get.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I think Reaves would get a lot less criticism here if we used him more judiciously. He doesn't need to be an "every game" player, but that's how we're using him.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think Reaves would get a lot less criticism here if we used him more judiciously. He doesn't need to be an "every game" player, but that's how we're using him.

I'm hoping that changes come playoffs. Considering he just gets completely benched for full periods on occasion, I have to think Sully recognizes it.

 

[EightyOne]

I think Reaves would get a lot less criticism here if we used him more judiciously. He doesn't need to be an "every game" player, but that's how we're using him.

Certainly didn't need to be dressed versus the Maple Leafs.

Capitals? Okay.

 

[Pens x]

I'm talking about their pace over the two years prior to this summer ,when JR had to decide if they were good enough fourth liners. I said 25-30 because I hadn't checked the math and was going from memory.

Kuhn in 15-16 and 16-17 scored 31 points in 99 games. That's a 25 point pace. Wilson scored 32 points in 102 games in that time. That's also a 25 point pace. And he actually did score 26 points last year. Also, we did in fact win a Cup with each of them playing 4LW.

I don't think you can look at those numbers for Kuhn and say "wow, we have a hole at 4LW." Those are really good 4th line numbers. Now as I said, it would seem that Cullen was a HUGE part in why they could be that effective. But I don't remember anyone this summer upset about our 4th line left wings.

And as you just said, I also agree that JR planned to move one of those guys for Sheahan before the season started. So he also knew he had the 4C hole filled with Sheahan. I'm not disputing a hole at 3C. That's a big one for sure. And the Reaves one is what it is. The guys clearly want an enforcer in there. Reaves is the best you can get.

I’m not sure how he thought it would be okay to play a combination of Reaves, Kuhn and Rowney/McKegg. You could see this would be a disaster months ago.

You keep saying oh well, the Reaves situation is what it is. He was an awful fit for this team then and continues to be. That was a big mistake.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I’m not sure how he thought it would be okay to play a combination of Reaves, Kuhn and Rowney/McKegg. You could see this would be a disaster months ago.

As you just said, he had a plan in place for a new 4C. So he knows it should be temporary.

You keep saying oh well, the Reaves situation is what it is. He was an awful fit for this team then and continues to be. That was a big mistake.

Please don't pretend to be dense about Reaves. You know why he's playing. We all do. We are clearly making a conscious decision to have a less effective 4th line for the sake of an enforcer every single night. It's not blindness. It's an active decision. Fit has nothing to do with it.

 

[Pens x]

As you just said, he had a plan in place for a new 4C. So he knows it should be temporary.

Please don't pretend to be dense about Reaves. You know why he's playing. We all do. We are clearly making a conscious decision to have a less effective 4th line for the sake of an enforcer every single night. It's not blindness. It's an active decision.

We’ve gone from a very good fourth line to a completely ineffective line so that Reaves can play 6 minutes a game?
Got it

 

[Ogrezilla]

We’ve gone from a very good fourth line to a completely ineffective line so that Reaves can play 6 minutes a game?
Got it

Do you really not see why he's playing? I'm not asking if you agree with why he's playing, I'm asking if you understand why he's playing. It's the same as Laraque or Goddard. Nobody thought those guys were playing for their hockey skills. Neither is Reaves.

JR has decided that Sid and Geno taking less abuse is more important than having a more effective 4RW.

 

[Andy99]

I guess my thoughts are what they have been all year.

If they are sandbagging it conserving themselves until when the games matter fine. If not then not so much. We will not know for a few months.

Also sandbagging it explains laziness, taking shifts off, not blocking shots. It does not explain sloppy passes out of the zone which is something that they should be working on at this time of the year and which was a hallmark of this team since Sullivan becasme coach.

After two months of this hockey, I think it's safe to say they NOT sandbagging or deliberately conserving energy. They are what they are--not as good as many other teams. The depth and execution are not there. No forward who was playing last year, with the exception of Phil, is having a better year. We do not have the shooting percentage or puck luck we had last year.

They need to play smarter and more focused. Given the current state, that means changing some personnel is a must if they have any chance of being a contender again. Whether that's by bringing up players in WBS or trades. Sully shuffling lines is not going to help the bottom six depth--we need more offensive skill players playing there. We need faster, physical skill players in the lineup in general or we will miss the PO IMO

 

[EightyOne]

I liked laraque. He would ask players if they REALLY wanted to fight him lol...

But. I hate the idea of enforcers past..oh..1982?

 

[NMK11]

Do you really not see why he's playing? I'm not asking if you agree with it, I'm asking if you understand why he's playing. It's the same as Laraque or Goddard. Nobody thought those guys were playing for their hockey skills. Neither is Reaves.

So which is worse? Thinking he'd be a better player and a legitimate fourth liner and bring incorrect, or actively playing him knowing he's worse than the alternatives and making the line worse overall?

Was never a fan of the trade like many on here, but defending it by saying it was an active choice is odd.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I liked laraque. He would ask players if they REALLY wanted to fight him lol...

But. I hate the idea of enforcers past..oh..1982?

So which is worse? Thinking he'd be a better player and a legitimate fourth liner and bring incorrect, or actively playing him knowing he's worse than the alternatives and making the line worse overall?

Was never a fan of the trade like many on here, but defending it by saying it was an active choice is odd.

I don't care for enforcers either. But JR and the team clearly decided that helping our stars take less abuse is more important than a better 4RW. They avoided doing it for a few years. It's obviously not something they just quickly decided to do. I don't know if Reaves helps with that. But I completely understand why we would try.

IF you believe Reaves can actually help in terms of the abuse they take, then playing him absolutely makes sense. The question is whether it actually helps or not. I don't know. But the guys clearly want him in there.

 

[The GM]

I'm hoping that changes come playoffs. Considering he just gets completely benched for full periods on occasion, I have to think Sully recognizes it.

But I think he is intimidating the other team with his stare from the bench, keeping the stars safe, so he’s an integral part of the teams success

 

[EightyOne]

I mean. Sid or Ledang don't have concussions yet. I'd say it helps while it hurts.

 

[Ugene Magic]

It pisses me off that Simon did more tonight than Kuhn has all season. WHY DID WE GO AWAY FROM SPEED AND SKILL?? We've wasted 30 games of Kuhn and Reaves doing nothing. Tell me a 4th line of Hags-Rowney-Simon is not significantly better...

Win 2 cups with an identity, then immediately change it. yeppp.

Also, I kind of got the feeling that the reason Bones wasn't re-signed was he didn't fit our system - you know, our speed and skill identity. And I was pretty content with the move. Then we go and get Sheahan. Who doesn't fit the team identity! He's a slow center that has a good shot and that's it. (Keyword on SLOW - same as Bones) Why did we go after him?? (he's fine as a 4c for the record) Why did we go away from everything that worked???

Why does Hornqvist get demoted to third line when he's been our 2nd best winger all year???
Why do you keep promoting Rust when it's clear he's the most comfortable and best at being 'the guy' on the third line?? He finds a way to be invisible when in the top 6, yet night in and night amongst the best on the ice when he's playing on the third line.

I have to totally disagree here, there is speed on this team. They didn't change it (the identity) they were forced into letting go guys who balanced the team out. They kept the team together last year because they knew what they had and depth is always what will win out. They lost that depth because they couldn't afford to keep it longer.

It's called balance they no longer have. You lost 3 guys who helped keep the team's balance anchored. Injuries had a hand in some of their woes. When that happens depth is depleted on a team with depleted depth to begin with.

Just because one guy looks good in one particular game shouldn't mean everything changed. Reaves is probably the only player I'd say is a miscast in identity considering they had nobody like him to play for either cup run. One of the guys who helped with both is being vilified because the team couldn't keep the keystone part of his line.

There's nothing wrong with Kuhnhackl, Rowney, Simon either. Who's the guy that is going to be the one doing what Cullen did? None of them even with Hagelin, Rowney, simon.

I have more issue with having all three players trying to win a board battle on line one because they they are all small and it takes Sid to be the one having to help his wingers so much. That's a dead shift because it takes too much effort and they have to chase off quicker. Other than Sid, there's really no one to win those board battles because they just can't, and is why Hornqvist works there because he refuses to give up and willing to play much bigger than he is. The others bounce off/fall down, a lot.

The Pens are in a lot of one and done chances against good teams.

At the end of the day, the 4th line worked so well before because they had 3 lines that could send teams into a confusing rage on who to take and limit. That's not the case anymore. Shifting guys around still has at least one of the top 3 lines lacking. It's not line #2 as often as it is line #1 and #3. The 4th line is only effective when those above are consistent. They simply don't play enough 5 on 5 to be the issue.

Kuhnhackl's role is different than say Simon's is who played on the 3rd.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I don't care for enforcers either. But JR and the team clearly decided that helping our stars take less abuse is more important than a better 4RW. They avoided doing it for a few years. It's obviously not something they just quickly decided to do. I don't know if Reaves helps with that. But I completely understand why we would try.

IF you believe Reaves can actually help in terms of the abuse they take, then playing him absolutely makes sense. The question is whether it actually helps or not. I don't know. But the guys clearly want him in there.

Doesn’t seem like Sully wants him there.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I'm talking about their pace over the two years prior to this summer ,when JR had to decide if they were good enough fourth liners. I said 25-30 because I hadn't checked the math and was going from memory.

Kuhn in 15-16 and 16-17 scored 31 points in 99 games. That's a 25 point pace. Wilson scored 32 points in 102 games in that time. That's also a 25 point pace. And he actually did score 26 points last year. Also, we did in fact win a Cup with each of them playing 4LW.

I don't think you can look at those numbers for Kuhn and say "wow, we have a hole at 4LW." Those are really good 4th line numbers. Now as I said, it would seem that Cullen was a HUGE part in why they could be that effective. But I don't remember anyone this summer upset about our 4th line left wings.

And as you just said, I also agree that JR planned to move one of those guys for Sheahan before the season started. So he also knew he had the 4C hole filled with Sheahan. I'm not disputing a hole at 3C. That's a big one for sure. And the Reaves one is what it is. The guys clearly want an enforcer in there. Reaves is the best you can get.

I think a lot of us can acknowledge that if Kuhnhackl was the worst forward he’d be fine. I wouldn’t want him having a guaranteed roster spot and without Cullen I don’t think he produces like that again, but it wouldn’t be a massive issue.

The guys wanted an enforcer and responded to that with some shitacular play so I suppose they’re better off being afraid or not occasionally vaguely avenged.

I think Reaves would get a lot less criticism here if we used him more judiciously. He doesn't need to be an "every game" player, but that's how we're using him.

Then JR would get more criticism about the trade and, yeah, I think there’s an element of ego involved with this. It’s just such a move away from what made this team successful and Sullivan seemingly doesn’t like playing Reaves much. There was also that token attempt at trying him on the PK in the preseason. It’s just damn weird. Unless Reaves is something like a 13F those problems aren't going away.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Doesn’t people seem like Sully wants him there.

and yet he plays. That tells me Crosby/Geno/whoever REALLY want him there.

I'm hoping he's not a regular come playoff time. Goddard played 71 games in 2008-2009, and zero playoff games. Now, Reaves is a clearly better hockey player than Goddard, but I still hope this ends up similarly.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I mean. Sid or Ledang don't have concussions yet. I'd say it helps while it hurts.

Crosby hasn’t been concussed in the regular season in a game since 2011. Letang doesn’t actually pick up multiple concussions every season either.

Malkin got hurt in game from a hit or slash, Hornqvist took a puck to the face, Hunwick got concussed in practice, Murray got run in a game, Schultz got concussed in a game, Schultz got taken out by another Pen in a game, Rowney broke his hand in a game, Cole took a puck to the face in a game and Reaves took Kuhnhackl out in a game. Sounds like the standard Pens just waiting for Letang to get hurt.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think a lot of us can acknowledge that if Kuhnhackl was the worst forward he’d be fine. I wouldn’t want him having a guaranteed roster spot and without Cullen I don’t think he produces like that again, but it wouldn’t be a massive issue.

Yeah, I'm not trying to argue that our 4th line is good or anything. I'm just saying that it's silly to point at 4LW as a spot that JR knowingly left a hole this summer.

The guys wanted an enforcer and responded to that with some ****acular play so I suppose they’re better off being afraid or not occasionally vaguely avenged.

Then JR would get more criticism about the trade and, yeah, I think there’s an element of ego involved with this. It’s just such a move away from what made this team successful and Sullivan seemingly doesn’t like playing Reaves much. There was also that token attempt at trying him on the PK in the preseason. It’s just damn weird. Unless Reaves is something like a 13F those problems aren't going away.

I think Reaves really was effective in St Louis. They just play a much different game than we do. He does do things well. I saw at least one occasion last night where a Leafs d-man simply didn't go for a puck in the corner with Reaves following him in.

Sadly, the things he does poorly are very important to how we play. And he matches up poorly against the top teams in the East.