Last chance for many players to salvage their NHL careers

[eye]

D-Day is fast approaching so I hope you players are calling Bob and your reps to let them know your true feelings. Stand up for yourselves and tell them exactly what you feel and not just what you think they want to hear. Take care of #1 which is YOU because that's all Bob and the highly paid player reps are doing.

You have a few days left to salvage exceptional working conditions and terms for a revolutionary CBA that potentially could be the best in sports if you would work with the NHL instead of against them. It can be a win-win proposition for all concerned. Failure to speak out will not only cut your potential future earnings in half it might just cost you your job in the NHL the way we know it.

If you guys don't return with a proposal that helps bring the sides together in the next few days I could care less if I ever see you play again. Bring on the replacement players. I enjoy the AHL brand of hockey more than the NHL right now anyways.

Click to read more...

 

[ACC1224]

do you actually believe there are players reading this?

 

[eye]

do you actually believe there are players reading this?

I know for a fact that many players read HF and other hockey boards. Players generally lead a boring life believe it or not.

 

[ACC1224]

I know for a fact that many players read HF and other hockey boards. Players generally lead a boring life believe it or not.

if you know all these players why don't you just call them up and tell them this?

 

[FLYLine27*]

D-Day is fast approaching so I hope you players are calling Bob and your reps to let them know your true feelings. Stand up for yourselves and tell them exactly what you feel and not just what you think they want to hear. Take care of #1 which is YOU because that's all Bob and the highly paid player reps are doing.

You have a few days left to salvage exceptional working conditions and terms for a revolutionary CBA that potentially could be the best in sports if you would work with the NHL instead of against them. It can be a win-win proposition for all concerned. Failure to speak out will not only cut your potential future earnings in half it might just cost you your job in the NHL the way we know it.

If you guys don't return with a proposal that helps bring the sides together in the next few days I could care less if I ever see you play again. Bring on the replacement players. I enjoy the AHL brand of hockey more than the NHL right now anyways.

Haha these posts crack me up, there will never be replacment players..but keep believing what Bettman tells ya. :lol

 

[nyr7andcounting]

D-Day is fast approaching so I hope you players are calling Bob and your reps to let them know your true feelings. Stand up for yourselves and tell them exactly what you feel and not just what you think they want to hear. Take care of #1 which is YOU because that's all Bob and the highly paid player reps are doing.

You have a few days left to salvage exceptional working conditions and terms for a revolutionary CBA that potentially could be the best in sports if you would work with the NHL instead of against them. It can be a win-win proposition for all concerned. Failure to speak out will not only cut your potential future earnings in half it might just cost you your job in the NHL the way we know it.

If you guys don't return with a proposal that helps bring the sides together in the next few days I could care less if I ever see you play again. Bring on the replacement players. I enjoy the AHL brand of hockey more than the NHL right now anyways.

Yea a league full of replacement players would be just awsome. I might even start watching NBA basketball if that happens.

 

[AM]

Your post

Haha these posts crack me up, there will never be replacment players..but keep believing what Bettman tells ya. :lol

Dosnt crack me up, it just makes me think you're an idiot.

I know its hard to tell from the US, but where do you think NHL players come from?

Replacement players would quickly become NHL players, in more ways then one. The system has to be suported, not the current product of it.

 

[Blind Gardien]

Haha these posts crack me up, there will never be replacment players..but keep believing what Bettman tells ya. :lol

But... Bettman keeps saying that replacement players are not an option the league can consider... ?

 

[eye]

If the players refuse to budge from their stance there will be a public outcry for the NHL to start play on time next season with replacement players. It will effect all pro leagues but will be a necessary step towards the restructuring of an improved NHL.

 

[Blind Gardien]

Replacement players would quickly become NHL players, in more ways then one. The system has to be suported, not the current product of it.

I think most people automatically underestimate the quality of hockey that replacement players would provide. This isn't like the NFL. The NFL is the only league remotely of its kind in the world, really. Hockey, by contrast, exists and is played at a high level in many other countries in the world. We don't see all of our displaced NHLers universally tearing up all the European or minor pro leagues. For the very good reason that there are a LOT of good hockey players out there. And side by side with the NHL talent in the current scoring parades, we find a lot of other talented players who were spurned or overlooked by the NHL through the years. They are just as talented as many of the NHL players, but the difference between making it or breaking can be a very fine line in the NHL, and can often come down simply to bad luck for some.

A well-coached, dedicated, cohesive team can beat even a vastly more talented team on any given night. Some AHL or RSL teams now could beat some NHL teams. European club teams can play with and beat the touring NHL All-Stars. Our Spengler Canadian rejects can play against teams with NHL players without looking out of place. Heck, The American kids back in the '80 Olympics beat the most talented team in the world.

Sure, we might have a hard time finding the Forsbergs right at the top of the talent scale, but otherwise, I think the replacements could cover adquately for most of the rest of the league. Look at Martin St.Louis... a few years back he was basically a replacement-calibre player. Now he's the NHL MVP. It's not that big a leap.

 

[eye]

I think most people automatically underestimate the quality of hockey that replacement players would provide. This isn't like the NFL. The NFL is the only league remotely of its kind in the world, really. Hockey, by contrast, exists and is played at a high level in many other countries in the world. We don't see all of our displaced NHLers universally tearing up all the European or minor pro leagues. For the very good reason that there are a LOT of good hockey players out there. And side by side with the NHL talent in the current scoring parades, we find a lot of other talented players who were spurned or overlooked by the NHL through the years. They are just as talented as many of the NHL players, but the difference between making it or breaking can be a very fine line in the NHL, and can often come down simply to bad luck for some.

A well-coached, dedicated, cohesive team can beat even a vastly more talented team on any given night. Some AHL or RSL teams now could beat some NHL teams. European club teams can play with and beat the touring NHL All-Stars. Our Spengler Canadian rejects can play against teams with NHL players without looking out of place. Heck, The American kids back in the '80 Olympics beat the most talented team in the world.

Sure, we might have a hard time finding the Forsbergs right at the top of the talent scale, but otherwise, I think the replacements could cover adquately for most of the rest of the league. Look at Martin St.Louis... a few years back he was basically a replacement-calibre player. Now he's the NHL MVP. It's not that big a leap.

It wouldn't take long for the Ovechkins, Carters, Crosby's, Spezza's of the world to replace the past stars of the game. The way the game is played will also take shape at the same time so we might actually see a better all round product on the ice. Right now the NHL is full of defensive minded clutch and grab oversized players. Replace those grinder-defensive types with 1/2 the AHL most skilled players regardless of size, add some young stars and more Euros and we have a better game that's easier on the eyes to watch than what we have seen the last few years.

The casual fan might now even recognize the difference while avid fans might just get to enjoy the effort and enthusiasm of players given a 2nd chance to live their dream. Go to some AHL games and you will quickly realize there are lots of very skilled and entertaining players in that league.

 

[ScottyBowman]

If the players refuse to budge from their stance there will be a public outcry for the NHL to start play on time next season with replacement players. It will effect all pro leagues but will be a necessary step towards the restructuring of an improved NHL.

Improved? Nope. More profits for the owners? Yes. The product will still suck out there unless they make changes in regards to goalie pads and enforcing obstruction.

 

[kenabnrmal]

D-Day is fast approaching so I hope you players are calling Bob and your reps to let them know your true feelings. Stand up for yourselves and tell them exactly what you feel and not just what you think they want to hear. Take care of #1 which is YOU because that's all Bob and the highly paid player reps are doing.

You have a few days left to salvage exceptional working conditions and terms for a revolutionary CBA that potentially could be the best in sports if you would work with the NHL instead of against them. It can be a win-win proposition for all concerned. Failure to speak out will not only cut your potential future earnings in half it might just cost you your job in the NHL the way we know it.

If you guys don't return with a proposal that helps bring the sides together in the next few days I could care less if I ever see you play again. Bring on the replacement players. I enjoy the AHL brand of hockey more than the NHL right now anyways.

 

[FLYLine27*]

But... Bettman keeps saying that replacement players are not an option the league can consider... ?

So explain to be why these so called knowledge fans thing Bettman is bringing them in. Eye???

 

[Blind Gardien]

So explain to be why these so called knowledge fans thing Bettman is bringing them in. Eye???

Oh, hopefully Bettman is thinking about it or planning for it. He must be. But he sure isn't saying it, as the original post seemed to imply. I was just correcting that misrepresentation. Bettman hasn't remotely suggested it or threatened it. Publicly.

 

[Lorenzo1000]

The title of this thread is perfectly accurate. The league made the last offer, which was a signifigant offer, just as the PA's was, so it's time for the Players to step up to the plate!!!

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

The title of this thread is perfectly accurate. The league made the last offer, which was a signifigant offer, just as the PA's was, so it's time for the Players to step up to the plate!!!

I'd like to see the players step up and offer a Luxury Tax system much like several proposed on this board (most notably, by JW119) before the last PA offer.

Something that hits close to dollar to dollar at $40 Million would do it.

I can't understand how anyone would be so rabidly pro-owner/anti-player that they see "cost-certainty" as the only way to fix hockey's problems.

 

[kenabnrmal]

I'd like to see the players step up and offer a Luxury Tax system much like several proposed on this board (most notably, by JW119) before the last PA offer.

Something that hits close to dollar to dollar at $40 Million would do it.

I can't understand how anyone would be so rabidly pro-owner/anti-player that they see "cost-certainty" as the only way to fix hockey's problems.

Its a bit bonkers. This business of hockey section has gotten to be just like the trade rumors and the hockey talk section...only instead of homers cheering for their team and hating on their rivals (for the most part, against reason), its NHL-homers (and NHLPA homers) cheering on Bettman et al and hating on the PA, again with reason taking a backseat to flag waving (per se).

I'm continuing to see the fault in both sides, especially in each side's "my way or the highway" approach to "negotiation". There isn't just one solution to the league's woes.

One thing I really don't understand the idea that seems to come from the pro-NHL group, that the NHLers are somehow less "morally sound" than the rest of us, or the hockey players playing in lower levels. That NHLers are spoiled brats, they have attitudes, and they've lost touch with the fans. I beg of you, spend some time around an NHL team, then spend some time with a minor league team...not just the AHL, but the CHL, ECHL, or the SPHL. You have the same sorts of guys...a few primadonnas who expect the team and the fans to respond to their every beck and call, but for the most part good guys who love the game and respect the fans. The difference being, the media follows the NHL a lot closer than the lower leagues, and thus the nature of the NHLers are brought under much harsher scrutiny. In the minors, the things a player does off the ice go entirely unnoticed, short of beating up a police officer. In the NHL, every comment to a reporter, coach, or lockerroom attendant gets thrown under a microscope. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter if the players are being paid $5 mil a year, or $50 a day...you get the same ratio of selfish, spoiled, whiney guys. Luckily for hockey fans, the ratio is way, way in favor of the good, respectful guys.

I don't know that thats really on topic, but its something that's been on my chest for a while, since I've gotten the chance to spend a good deal of time behind the scenes of a minor league team. Look, I'm not on either side. I hate the PA's refusal to negotiate the possibility of a cap that would work for both sides, and I hate the NHL's refusal to negotiate anything but their narrow definition of cost certainty. But, seeing the players as a whole get classified the way they have by many pro-NHLers as selfish spoiled babies, simply because of the actions of their leadership, is something that bothers me.

Look forward to replacement players if you like. The AHL is a good brand of hockey, and there are some talented individuals out there who would be involved. However, don't expect the moral fabric of the players to be any different than it is right now. More realistic expectations of the players in general would probably be a better way to go.

 

[Winger98]

If the players refuse to budge from their stance there will be a public outcry for the NHL to start play on time next season with replacement players. It will effect all pro leagues but will be a necessary step towards the restructuring of an improved NHL.

a public outcry? Where? What public? If this season gets cancelled, hockey will be a headline for a day, maybe two, and then back to the abyss, just like it has been for the past four months.

imo, this is the scariest part of the lockout. The league has shut down and nobody cares. If this season is cancelled, I think it is more likely that even fewer people will notice its absence next year than to expect a significant public outcry for hockey.

 

[Alfie#11]

a public outcry? Where? What public? If this season gets cancelled, hockey will be a headline for a day, maybe two, and then back to the abyss, just like it has been for the past four months.

imo, this is the scariest part of the lockout. The league has shut down and nobody cares. If this season is cancelled, I think it is more likely that even fewer people will notice its absence next year than to expect a significant public outcry for hockey.

I agree. I love all the talk of public outrage or how important it is to win the PR war.

Nobody really cares who is at fault for the lockout.

In fact, few people in the States even care if there is a lockout. If that isn't troubling enough, many Canadians are finding they don't miss the NHL that much.

At this rate, the "winner" of this lockout is going to win a phyrric victory.

 

[codswallop]

Its a bit bonkers. This business of hockey section has gotten to be just like the trade rumors and the hockey talk section...only instead of homers cheering for their team and hating on their rivals (for the most part, against reason), its NHL-homers (and NHLPA homers) cheering on Bettman et al and hating on the PA, again with reason taking a backseat to flag waving (per se).

I'm continuing to see the fault in both sides, especially in each side's "my way or the highway" approach to "negotiation". There isn't just one solution to the league's woes.

One thing I really don't understand the idea that seems to come from the pro-NHL group, that the NHLers are somehow less "morally sound" than the rest of us, or the hockey players playing in lower levels. That NHLers are spoiled brats, they have attitudes, and they've lost touch with the fans. I beg of you, spend some time around an NHL team, then spend some time with a minor league team...not just the AHL, but the CHL, ECHL, or the SPHL. You have the same sorts of guys...a few primadonnas who expect the team and the fans to respond to their every beck and call, but for the most part good guys who love the game and respect the fans. The difference being, the media follows the NHL a lot closer than the lower leagues, and thus the nature of the NHLers are brought under much harsher scrutiny. In the minors, the things a player does off the ice go entirely unnoticed, short of beating up a police officer. In the NHL, every comment to a reporter, coach, or lockerroom attendant gets thrown under a microscope. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter if the players are being paid $5 mil a year, or $50 a day...you get the same ratio of selfish, spoiled, whiney guys. Luckily for hockey fans, the ratio is way, way in favor of the good, respectful guys.

I don't know that thats really on topic, but its something that's been on my chest for a while, since I've gotten the chance to spend a good deal of time behind the scenes of a minor league team. Look, I'm not on either side. I hate the PA's refusal to negotiate the possibility of a cap that would work for both sides, and I hate the NHL's refusal to negotiate anything but their narrow definition of cost certainty. But, seeing the players as a whole get classified the way they have by many pro-NHLers as selfish spoiled babies, simply because of the actions of their leadership, is something that bothers me.

Look forward to replacement players if you like. The AHL is a good brand of hockey, and there are some talented individuals out there who would be involved. However, don't expect the moral fabric of the players to be any different than it is right now. More realistic expectations of the players in general would probably be a better way to go.

I feel your pain, bro.

Maybe not as much about the negotiating process. As unsavory as it is, that's just the way this game is played (though it sure as hell doesn't feel like any game). Chances are pretty good that both sides would be happy with less than they give in their stated positions; they certainly won't show all their cards like that, shows too much weakness. I personally have a great dislike for it, but whatcha gonna do? I believe it hurts more than it helps, but at this point it has to play out like this.

I'm with you about not being on one side or the other. It's kinda hard to get a good perspective on the whole of the situation when you're only looking in one direction, which is the norm around here. Or maybe you could say the people are only seeing the trees, and ignoring the forest. Either way, same thing. As if the lockout wasn't frustrating enough.

Grin and bear it

 

[Blind Gardien]

I can't understand how anyone would be so rabidly pro-owner/anti-player that they see "cost-certainty" as the only way to fix hockey's problems.

Personally, I've never cared for the "cost-certainty"-at-all-costs stance either, but I still end up being pro-owner/anti-player because at least the owner stance seems to offer some sane, sensible, survivability for the teams. It maybe goes farther than necessary, but at least it works to address the problems. Whereas nothing the players have suggested so far helps the situation (unless temporarily).

If the players could come back with a really serious luxury tax offer and enough curbs on salary escalation to make me think they have an agenda beyond maintaining their gravy train status quo over the longterm, then I would be glad to rethink my position. But I don't really see that happening. Fixing hockey's problems is seemingly not on the players' agenda. So by default the draconian proposals of the owners become the lesser of two evils.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

Personally, I've never cared for the "cost-certainty"-at-all-costs stance either, but I still end up being pro-owner/anti-player because at least the owner stance seems to offer some sane, sensible, survivability for the teams. It maybe goes farther than necessary, but at least it works to address the problems. Whereas nothing the players have suggested so far helps the situation (unless temporarily).

If the players could come back with a really serious luxury tax offer and enough curbs on salary escalation to make me think they have an agenda beyond maintaining their gravy train status quo over the longterm, then I would be glad to rethink my position. But I don't really see that happening. Fixing hockey's problems is seemingly not on the players' agenda. So by default the draconian proposals of the owners become the lesser of two evils.

Wouldn't a Luxury Tax, a stiff one, be the compromise?
From no salary restrictions, to a system that punishes teams for spending over a certain limit (with rewards going to weaker franchises).
Not all the way to a hard cap. But enough of the way there to slow salary spending significantly.

Cost-certainty is pretty pie-in-the-sky, if you ask me.
And it's amazing that fans aren't seeing this for what it is.

 

[eye]

Personally, I've never cared for the "cost-certainty"-at-all-costs stance either, but I still end up being pro-owner/anti-player because at least the owner stance seems to offer some sane, sensible, survivability for the teams. It maybe goes farther than necessary, but at least it works to address the problems. Whereas nothing the players have suggested so far helps the situation (unless temporarily).

If the players could come back with a really serious luxury tax offer and enough curbs on salary escalation to make me think they have an agenda beyond maintaining their gravy train status quo over the longterm, then I would be glad to rethink my position. But I don't really see that happening. Fixing hockey's problems is seemingly not on the players' agenda. So by default the draconian proposals of the owners become the lesser of two evils.

Well said. At one point I thought a stiff luxury tax would do the trick but if Gross Revenues continue to drop teams no longer have extra income to look forward to from expansion and new buildings so like Bettman I now understand why a luxury tax system likely won't fix the problem longterm for the benefit of all 30 teams. I think cost linkage along with a luxury tax-revenue sharing program and compromises on all other issues is the only way to go.

 

[tantalum]

Wouldn't a Luxury Tax, a stiff one, be the compromise?
From no salary restrictions, to a system that punishes teams for spending over a certain limit (with rewards going to weaker franchises).
Not all the way to a hard cap. But enough of the way there to slow salary spending significantly.

Cost-certainty is pretty pie-in-the-sky, if you ask me.
And it's amazing that fans aren't seeing this for what it is.

A luxury tax in itself guarantees nothing. It may help but it will only be a real solution if the thresholds are somehow tied to revenues. There needs to a be a system in which the thresholds of that new system fluctuate up or down according to the health of the league. If the NHLPA comes forward with a stiff tax starting at X% of league revenues then there is talk. BUt it all comes down to one major thing...the NHL getting the NHLPA to talk about revenues and their fair share of those revenues. Which is why Daly has stated an NBA-like proposal from the players gets things moving even though they do not think the NBA system will ultimately work; it gets the NHLPA to negotiate some sort of system that has a predictable trigger.

The ultimate system will be a compromise from that point IMO...a higher hard cap of $50 mil with a strict luxury tax system between $40-50 mil and a minimum cap of $30 mil. With costs/punishments associated with teams that are continually in the luxury tax range. All these thresholds will be tied to a percentage of revenues not just some relatively random number. If the owners are under reporting as the NHLPA liked to whine about (notice how that has pretty much stopped the past few months) the caps go up from what the NHL numbers say. BUt i think the main point is to have the built in fluctuation and predictability of the system. If the league revenues keep on growing the NHLPA would be wise to negotiate an escalating percentage of revenues clause....as has been mentioned if the other operating costs remain roughly the same yet revenues go up 50% a bigger percentage can be allocated to the salaries.

In the end there is more than one solution that may work. However, it is the owners who are in the drivers seat in this negotiation and as a result they ultimately get to "pick" the system framework. And the framework they have opted for at this time is a much more predictable and "safe" system. Something they feel is needed at this time.