Laine v Matthews. Ceiling/Potential

[Halla]

Why is this still going on? It was "meaningful" I suppose during the Calder race as they were in direct competition with each other. Now as a Leaf fan I could care less about Laine other than my interest in players across the league. The Leafs and Jets are not rivals, they play each twice a year and can't play in the playoffs unless it's for a Cup.

Furthermore more the 2 players being compared are so vastly different from each other that comparisons are difficult. They play almost opposite styles of games that to compare them is quite unfair to both players. Using production as the only basis for a comparison is a flawed exercise. Or do you believe that Vlassic and Petry have the same value?

Also don't understand why people are talking trash or giving excuses for either player. Both seasons were pretty phenomenal. Laine being 2nd to Matthews is no slight. Especially when looking at Matthews season as a whole.

Matthews winning the calder should have been the end of it.
Jets fans should be happy they got the 2nd best player in the draft without having to be as terrible as the nucks or avs....but apparently isn't enough.

Mcdavid is the best young player in the league. Matthews is next. EIchel is a slight notch below him. Then it's Draisaitl and Laine.

just be happy with what you have jets fans. Laine isn't better than Matthews and likely won't be regardless of how many threads are made here. leafs fans have moved on, I suggest you do the same

 

[Blue Shakehead]

I still don't see how the bolded is a reasonable conclusion when looking at the chart I posted. Nylander is a possession beast but the difference between Matthews w/o Nylander and Nylander w/o Matthews is minimal.

Meanwhile almost every single other player sees an increase in their possession differentials when playing with Matthews versus when playing without Matthews.

Lastly Hyman's numbers without Matthews tank almost 3x worse than Matthews numbers without Hyman so I really, really don't see how/why the assumption is that Hyman helps Matthews' possession more than Matthews helps Hyman's since that's exactly the opposite of what the numbers say.

I think we're on the same page about Laine, but you're making some really weird leaps in logic when it comes to Matthews and none of it seems to be based on objective data.

Honestly, I didn't even notice Hymans numbers away from Matthews they were so far down the page. So more of an oversight than an intentional logic leap. Given the disparity in the results, the fact that they don't really make any sense (Matthews+Hyman = good, Matthews - Hyman = bad, Hyman - Matthews = ECHL), and how small the sample is, I am much more inclined to toss them out than try to learn anything from them, which is what you guys were essentially arguing yesterday. Very productive! haha

 

[TDK67]

Honestly, I didn't even notice Hymans numbers away from Matthews they were so far down the page. So more of an oversight than an intentional logic leap. Given the disparity in the results, the fact that they don't really make any sense (Matthews+Hyman = good, Matthews - Hyman = bad, Hyman - Matthews = ECHL), and how small the sample is, I am much more inclined to toss them out than try to learn anything from them, which is what you guys were essentially arguing yesterday. Very productive! haha

Lol glad you understand. Cheers to a (rare) actual good conversation here

 

[TDK67]

Whatever man, you wouldn't make a positive comment on anything Laine does. To you he actually doesn't care about winning or his teammates and should look up to matthews for that. Save your preaching.

This is again one of those times when I shouldn't even comment and won't after this. Helps not to see your posts in the future too.

I have plenty of positive things to say on Laine. Unfortunately, none of them will ever be directed to his fanboys that only enter these threads to stir crap up and dump on Matthews. K thx byeeeee.

 

[Hockeyisl1fe]

About the argument for Hyman: I thought Perrault was a better linemate for Laine than Ehlers late in the season.

 

[TDK67]

Cheers. I think we can all agree Matthews is the better player at this point with more polish. The thing is that some people don't agree that it means he has a lot of room to grow anymore, but I don't think that stands up to scrutiny. There are so many things you can compare it to beyond hockey that can hopefully build understanding, but the point remains that it's easiest to build up with a superior base

The whole "more raw = higher ceiling" facination on HF never made any sense to me. I'm sure it has been proven just as false as it has been proven true over the years.

The best athletes in the world will continue to grow and improve as much as possible during their careers. I'm inclined to believe Matthews and Laine are in that class so if a gap exists now in Matthews' favor (which it does according to most objective fans), then I don't think he's going to simply stagnate or stop working or have less things to improve (because he's more well rounded) while Laine closes that gap. That's simply not how these guys are wired. There's always an extra step, an extra strength, an extra skill, etc that can be worked on and improved. Always.

Its almost as if some people desperately want to imagine these players are like closed bottles of water. Right now Matthews' bottle is more filled therefore he has less room to reach his max capacity, while Laine's is less filled therefore he has more room to reach his max. The problem with that concept is that we humans don't actually operate like that, and that's twice as true when it comes to world class athletes. Outside of the basic laws of physics, there's no real limit to what people are capable of and the history of sports (and mankind in general) is littered with countless examples of this.

So yea, I can't help but dismiss all of the HF experts who seem to be 100% confident in what another person can or can't do over time. Especially when we're talking about athletes who have defied all odds over years of hard work to be in the conversation among the best-in-the-world of their sport.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

Lol glad you understand. Cheers to a (rare) actual good conversation here

Yes, it was. I'm just as guilty as anyone of throwing gas on the Leafs vs Jets, Laine vs Matthews, Ehlers vs Nylander, Rielly vs Trouba flame wars and may find myself in the trenches again tomorrow but Im trying not to. Its always the same posts/posters that get me. Gonna put the idiots on ignore and see if that helps....Cheers

 

[Gavy]

He certainly did not dominate him last year 5 more points in 9 more games is not domination and he 1000% didn't dominate him in head to head matches last year either! Never change man. LOL no one believes this. I doubt even you do. What a bunch of baloney.

Both were great for rookies last year and while Laine was healthy last year through 60 games. The Calder was certainly a toss up.

Just like who would get picked 1st OA was a toss up, roght? You're hilarious lmao. Matthews will continue to be better just like he was last year.

 

[spiny norman]

Since the poll is closed, I see no reason for this thread to remain open.