Kyle Turris: Management wanted to sign me, Ownership didn't

Tak7

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We could have said the same about keeping Alfredsson & he let him go for a lot less. It wouldn't surprise me if they came out & said during the summer that they want to go younger & that they have a stock pile of good young prospects coming & trading Karlsson will add to that cache.

We read on here all the time that they need to play their younger players & adding another one or two top 10 prospects or picks would certainly look like a move in that direction rightly or wrongly. Karlsson is on the team now & they are losing & in one of the worse slumps ever & people are not going to the arena to see him so why would he pay him if they aren't being supported at the gate? It may be time for a change including the captaincy to reinvigorate interest. Stone would make a great captain.

I understand what you are saying.

With regards to the business / arena side of the equation, perhaps the fear is if you give Karlsson away, then the building becomes virtually empty.

I know attendance isn't great now, and hasn't been for a while, but perhaps the "it can get worse" attitude applies here.

I'd also argue that from a business perspective, keeping Karlsson is a no-brainer compared to Alfredsson.
 

DaveMatthew

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We could have said the same about keeping Alfredsson & he let him go for a lot less. It wouldn't surprise me if they came out & said during the summer that they want to go younger & that they have a stock pile of good young prospects coming & trading Karlsson will add to that cache.

We read on here all the time that they need to play their younger players & adding another one or two top 10 prospects or picks would certainly look like a move in that direction rightly or wrongly. Karlsson is on the team now & they are losing & in one of the worse slumps ever & people are not going to the arena to see him so why would he pay him if they aren't being supported at the gate? It may be time for a change including the captaincy to reinvigorate interest. Stone would make a great captain.

You think Mark Stone re-signs here long-term if you trade Karlsson?
 

aragorn

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You think Mark Stone re-signs here long-term if you trade Karlsson?
Yes, we are talking about millions of dollars, why wouldn't he, he's only 25 yrs old? It's a business & players are moved off teams all the time, what fans think are important is meaningless compared to a player setting himself & his family up for life.

I doubt he cares what happens with Karlsson & it's time to take care of himself & his family first. Maybe the next contract he will consider playing on a winner more but by that time Ottawa with all it's good prospects could be a pretty good team by that time. What's more important to a 25 yr old, being on a winning team or making millions of dollars? I don't think it's that tough a call really, Karlsson can take care of himself.
 
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Mr Hat

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Yes, we are talking about millions of dollars, why wouldn't he, he's only 22 yrs old? It's a business & players are moved off teams all the time, what fans think are important is meaningless compared to a player setting himself & his family up for life.

I doubt he cares what happens with Karlsson & it's time to take care of himself & his family first. Maybe the next contract he will consider playing on a winner more but by that time Ottawa with all it's good prospects could be a pretty good team by that time. What's more important to a 22 yr old, being on a winning team or making millions of dollars? I don't think it's that tough a call really, Karlsson can take care of himself.

Stone was born in 1992. Hes 26 next year. 8 year contract puts him at 34. He will probably get 2 or 3 more years on a retirement contract assuming he goes for max term which he has every right to demand, likely 8M/yr.
 
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aragorn

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Stone was born in 1992. Hes 26 next year. 8 year contract puts him at 34. He will probably get 2 or 3 more years on a retirement contract assuming he goes for max term which he has every right to demand, likely 8M/yr.
Agreed although I'm not sure he will get 8 yrs but $8 mil is a lot of money to turn down per yr for a number of yrs.
 

danielpalfredsson

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Aug 14, 2013
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I understand what you are saying.

With regards to the business / arena side of the equation, perhaps the fear is if you give Karlsson away, then the building becomes virtually empty.

I know attendance isn't great now, and hasn't been for a while, but perhaps the "it can get worse" attitude applies here.

I'd also argue that from a business perspective, keeping Karlsson is a no-brainer compared to Alfredsson.

I don't think Erik Karlsson is as big of a deal marketing wise as he should be, and that's the organizations fault for not capitalizing on him these past few years and building him up. I think the team could easily weather the storm of losing him so long as the return for him had the right mix of big name young talent coming back. Fans are really sensitive to athletes being perceived as greedy, and I think with how much this team is losing right now, the (I think false, but that doesn't matter) idea Karlsson might never be the same again after his foot injury, and Karlsson's public refusal to take a hometown discount, if the team gets back exciting young players in a Karlsson deal and proceeds to put together a strong 18-19 season, in the short term I don't think trading him will hurt them at the box office.

If I am Mr.Melnyk, I am forcing Pierre Dorion to make a deal with NSH around Karlsson for Subban. He's cost controlled at the price the Senators probably would want to get Karlsson for, he'd convert a ton of disenfranchised Canadiens fans from Gatineau and within the city in preparation for the downtown move, and if Karlsson is an A+, Subban is an A on the ice. It's a big downgrade, and we're worse on the ice for it, but especially if we can get some picks/prospects with him, if I'm Mr.Melnyk, making a trade that gets me probably a top 5 marketable star in the league who is still in his prime, that's my plan of action. Pierre Dorion makes all the hockey decisions though, not Mr.Melnyk.
 

Karl Prime

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Feb 13, 2017
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With the way things are now, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Stone gets traded. If you're trading Erik, you're not going to be competitive for at least two seasons most likely. If you want to go full rebuild, trading Karlsson and Stone would fetch you enough to completely change things around.
 

RICKY SPANISH

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Aug 16, 2016
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I haven't always agreed with melnyk, but I've always been thankful he's saved the team.

This relocation chatter is the last straw though. Time for a change.

Having been through multiple lockouts, I have very little sympathy for the owners plight. If you have 'centuries' of money, but have to make public appearances questioning your investment, isn't it time to cut an run?

How do we start running this guy out of town?
 
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DrEasy

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Oct 3, 2010
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At the time of the Alfie fiasco, I was mostly disappointed in Alfie. But now that I get to know more about Melnyk, and now with the Turris stuff I realize how toxic Melnyk has been and how much of the blame he should shoulder.

I also realize the importance of Brian Murray, and how much his calming influence and matter of factness was important in keeping Melnyk's head cool and leaving him out hockey business. Dorion doesn't have the stature and gets railroaded into making bad hockey deals.
 

JD1

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Stone was born in 1992. Hes 26 next year. 8 year contract puts him at 34. He will probably get 2 or 3 more years on a retirement contract assuming he goes for max term which he has every right to demand, likely 8M/yr.

I can't see Stone in the league that long. Some guys can lose a step and still play NHL level hockey. I don't think Stone is one of those guys
 

JD1

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I don't think Erik Karlsson is as big of a deal marketing wise as he should be, and that's the organizations fault for not capitalizing on him these past few years and building him up. I think the team could easily weather the storm of losing him so long as the return for him had the right mix of big name young talent coming back. Fans are really sensitive to athletes being perceived as greedy, and I think with how much this team is losing right now, the (I think false, but that doesn't matter) idea Karlsson might never be the same again after his foot injury, and Karlsson's public refusal to take a hometown discount, if the team gets back exciting young players in a Karlsson deal and proceeds to put together a strong 18-19 season, in the short term I don't think trading him will hurt them at the box office.

If I am Mr.Melnyk, I am forcing Pierre Dorion to make a deal with NSH around Karlsson for Subban. He's cost controlled at the price the Senators probably would want to get Karlsson for, he'd convert a ton of disenfranchised Canadiens fans from Gatineau and within the city in preparation for the downtown move, and if Karlsson is an A+, Subban is an A on the ice. It's a big downgrade, and we're worse on the ice for it, but especially if we can get some picks/prospects with him, if I'm Mr.Melnyk, making a trade that gets me probably a top 5 marketable star in the league who is still in his prime, that's my plan of action. Pierre Dorion makes all the hockey decisions though, not Mr.Melnyk.

that's a downgrade move while still paying big dollars. I hope EK regains form and stays here. But if they do trade him I'd look for two young guys already in the league that look like they are going to be perennial all Stars plus picks. One D and one C preferably
 

danielpalfredsson

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that's a downgrade move while still paying big dollars. I hope EK regains form and stays here. But if they do trade him I'd look for two young guys already in the league that look like they are going to be perennial all Stars plus picks. One D and one C preferably

You don't make a Karlsson/Subban trade for on-ice success. You make it for marketing/box office potential.
 

danielpalfredsson

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box office potential in this market seems pretty tied to on ice succes

Yes, but on ice success is not guaranteed with any trade even if we're getting 2 or 3 good young players for Karlsson. If Melnyk gets Subban, he's getting a known quantity, in that he's getting one of the top 5 most popular/marketable players in the NHL.
 
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Tundraman

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Yes, but on ice success is not guaranteed with any trade even if we're getting 2 or 3 good young players for Karlsson. If Melnyk gets Subban, he's getting a known quantity, in that he's getting one of the top 5 most popular/marketable players in the NHL.

If they were going to trade Karlsson I'd love it if they got Subban. He's nowhere near the point producer EK is but if EK wants the moon then Subban is a good start in a package and as you say he's locked in at an acceptable term and price point. His ave is $9M over the next 4 years after this with 2 at $10M and his last 2 at $8M. I'm not sure how Melnyk would like the up front $6M signing bonuses in the last 2 years though. Remember Heatley asked for a trade and then got his July 1st bonus from Melnyk when he vetoed a possible pre-bonus trading partner. That said, how could the Sens ignore the market shift potential. Subban would be an instant hit in the Ottawa/Gatineau area.

The other option for the Sens would be to use Karlsson to try to get a top scoring forward who is locked in for the long term with some other solid building blocks. A lot will depend on Karlsson's ask and how they feel about Chabot and their overall D roster for the coming few years. With the cap said to be due to rise by $5M next year and who knows to what in subsequent years it's my feeling that the numbers being thrown around may not be as dire as they sound.

As far as the Turris situation: Like I said before I believe that's on Dorion saying one thing to Melnyk and another to Turris' agent similar to what he said to Neil when he blamed Boucher for not re-signing him.

As far as Melnyk: This team isn't going anywhere. It will be sold before that ever happens. Melnyk is talking for nothing but I have a feeling he was aiming some of it at the Gov't for their rules and the private sector for not doing enough to help him sell tickets.
 
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JD1

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If they were going to trade Karlsson I'd love it if they got Subban. He's nowhere near the point producer EK is but if EK wants the moon then Subban is a good start in a package and as you say he's locked in at an acceptable term and price point. His ave is $9M over the next 4 years after this with 2 at $10M and his last 2 at $8M. I'm not sure how Melnyk would like the up front $6M signing bonuses in the last 2 years though. Remember Heatley asked for a trade and then got his July 1st bonus from Melnyk when he vetoed a possible pre-bonus trading partner. That said, how could the Sens ignore the market shift potential. Subban would be an instant hit in the Ottawa/Gatineau area.

The other option for the Sens would be to use Karlsson to try to get a top scoring forward who is locked in for the long term with some other solid building blocks. A lot will depend on Karlsson's ask and how they feel about Chabot and their overall D roster for the coming few years. With the cap said to be due to rise by $5M next year and who knows to what in subsequent years it's my feeling that the numbers being thrown around may not be as dire as they sound.

As far as the Turris situation: Like I said before I believe that's on Dorion saying one thing to Melnyk and another to Turris' agent similar to what he said to Neil when he blamed Boucher for not re-signing him.

As far as Melnyk: This team isn't going anywhere. It will be sold before that ever happens. Melnyk is talking for nothing but I have a feeling he was aiming some of it at the Gov't for their rules and the private sector for not doing enough to help him sell tickets.

I agree with a lot of this

the cap likely rises next year because the Cdn dollar is stronger this year. That of course helps us.

I think Melnyk's message was more directed at the NCC in a giddy up kind of way. The man is a bit of a PR buffoon for sure but I think his message is more of a threat on the pace of lebreton negotiations than anything else. He needs more revenue to do what all the guys in here want done which is spend more money on the team and to do that he needs lebreton.
 

Sensung

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I think Melnyk's message was more directed at the NCC in a giddy up kind of way. The man is a bit of a PR buffoon for sure but I think his message is more of a threat on the pace of lebreton negotiations than anything else. He needs more revenue to do what all the guys in here want done which is spend more money on the team and to do that he needs lebreton.

And the winner of the "Understatement of the Year Award" goes to JD1!
 
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Mr Hat

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I can't see Stone in the league that long. Some guys can lose a step and still play NHL level hockey. I don't think Stone is one of those guys

My point was that this is Stones big payout contract, he is getting a long term deal in the 8M range. I hope Stone wins the Selke this year but even if he doesn't he is still regarded as an elite two way player around the league.

34 really is not that old, I would put my money on Stone putting up a similar production to the Sedin's at the same age (relative to the rest of the league). His hockey IQ will probably keep him in the NHL as long as his body can take it.
 
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JD1

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My point was that this is Stones big payout contract, he is getting a long term deal in the 8M range. I hope Stone wins the Selke this year but even if he doesn't he is still regarded as an elite two way player around the league.

34 really is not that old, I would put my money on Stone putting up a similar production to the Sedin's at the same age (relative to the rest of the league). His hockey IQ will probably keep him in the NHL as long as his body can take it.

yes his iq will keep him in the league as long as his body can take it. I just don' think his body will take it long term.
 

Tundraman

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My point was that this is Stones big payout contract, he is getting a long term deal in the 8M range. I hope Stone wins the Selke this year but even if he doesn't he is still regarded as an elite two way player around the league.

34 really is not that old, I would put my money on Stone putting up a similar production to the Sedin's at the same age (relative to the rest of the league). His hockey IQ will probably keep him in the NHL as long as his body can take it.

Wow I love Stone but if Turris wasn't worth roughly 6x6 or even ballpark $6.5M over 7 then I wonder if Dorion will be willing to pay $8M over max term? For Dorion this could be one of his make or break decisions that could impact the whole roster. I don't even want to sound a bit negative about one of my favorite players but that's just about top end dollars and top term for Stone. The risk would be all on the Sens that he'd continue his current pace through his whole deal. I'd hate to hear the fans if they had to deal with a repeat of Ryan who can be really good in spurts but will never earn his contract. Tough call that's for sure. All I can say is Dorion better do his homework on this one.
 

Mr Hat

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Wow I love Stone but if Turris wasn't worth roughly 6x6 or even ballpark $6.5M over 7 then I wonder if Dorion will be willing to pay $8M over max term? For Dorion this could be one of his make or break decisions that could impact the whole roster. I don't even want to sound a bit negative about one of my favorite players but that's just about top end dollars and top term for Stone. The risk would be all on the Sens that he'd continue his current pace through his whole deal. I'd hate to hear the fans if they had to deal with a repeat of Ryan who can be really good in spurts but will never earn his contract. Tough call that's for sure. All I can say is Dorion better do his homework on this one.

Ryan Johanson got 8x8. Turris at 6x6. I think Stone is more comparable to Johnason in value. They are also same draft year. Hell Draisaitl got 8M after only one good playoff run. Stone should get 8M or he should fire his agent, Eugene may not want to pay it but his value is crazy high right now.
 

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