Who needs rationale if a guy just needs to push his anti-russian agenda? Next time he will have another absurd argument.
His only "point" is Russians are bad(like nationality influences skill or stats). Everything else is just an act.
Kuznetsov, Kucherov, Buchnevich- The Russian Factor
- Thread starter SnowblindNYR
- Start date
His only "point" is Russians are bad(like nationality influences skill or stats). Everything else is just an act.
And you're on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, pushing your pro russian agenda.
You pretty much derail every thread with a russian prospect, about how he's ruined since he came over to NA to develop and such.
Providing proven arguments that contradict your POV is "derailing"?
Also you would have to find proif to that your statement above now.
Every prospect?
Or maybe I just point out the ones to which it applies? Maybe I am just naming the problem.
Acallabeth
Post approved by Ovechkin
At least they make sense and reasonable points, unlike some other posters. Just look at this guy:
You'd think there's just 1 "postseason player" every year.
On topic, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov and Kucherov would all be top 10 picks, with Tarasenko picked highest of them all as he's bigger, and his game was easy to translate to the NHL. There's no way Kaprizov would be taken any higher than the 3rd round, it was really hard to predict he would become that good. Sure, a full time KHL player at 17, some skills, smart and elusive - that was all I thought watching his draft season.
And everyone and their grandmas could see that Kucherov who scored 3 PPG in the U18 World championship was on pace to become somebody really special.
Caser
@RUSProspects
Not exactly sure this thread belongs here, but since i feel a bit nostalgic...
Tarasenko and Kuznetsov were both Top5 talents, everyone acknowledged that, so here is the pure Russian factor (compare to Burmistrov, who went 8th). Also that year Zaitsev went undrafted because of the Russian factor. You could add Panarin also here, but he wasn't that obvious, for example I doubted that he will succeed, also size was a very big deal back then.
Kucherov's case is about Russian factor too, but also he was heavily underrated: while he was great in the MHL in his draft season, I can't remember him appearing in any rating before the U18 WJC that year. And even after that people were talking that he is undersized (160 lbs at that time) and that his points were inflated by Grigorenko. Fun fact: 2 years after his draft, in 2013 he was voted #5 Lightning prospects here on Hfboards behind Drouin, Vasilevskiy, Killorn and Connolly, so you can see that even at this point people didn't view him as elite talent.
Buchnevich wasn't considered a first-round talent back then, but probably without the Russian factor he could've gone in the second round. And yes, he also was lightweight (I think he was 160 lbs too, iirc).
Kaprizov's issue was that in his draft year he didn't dominate yet, he was just good and promising and also got injured at the U18 WJC. Also a bit of Russian factor, as people remembered that he was #1 KHL draft pick. And yes, he was a bit small too.
Tarasenko and Kuznetsov were both Top5 talents, everyone acknowledged that, so here is the pure Russian factor (compare to Burmistrov, who went 8th). Also that year Zaitsev went undrafted because of the Russian factor. You could add Panarin also here, but he wasn't that obvious, for example I doubted that he will succeed, also size was a very big deal back then.
Kucherov's case is about Russian factor too, but also he was heavily underrated: while he was great in the MHL in his draft season, I can't remember him appearing in any rating before the U18 WJC that year. And even after that people were talking that he is undersized (160 lbs at that time) and that his points were inflated by Grigorenko. Fun fact: 2 years after his draft, in 2013 he was voted #5 Lightning prospects here on Hfboards behind Drouin, Vasilevskiy, Killorn and Connolly, so you can see that even at this point people didn't view him as elite talent.
Buchnevich wasn't considered a first-round talent back then, but probably without the Russian factor he could've gone in the second round. And yes, he also was lightweight (I think he was 160 lbs too, iirc).
Kaprizov's issue was that in his draft year he didn't dominate yet, he was just good and promising and also got injured at the U18 WJC. Also a bit of Russian factor, as people remembered that he was #1 KHL draft pick. And yes, he was a bit small too.
RossiyaSport
Registered User
That is the paradox relationship. Guys who took the exact NA path the NHL brass wanted went higher but became busts. Guys who took the RU path were labeled with Russian factor, dropped in the draft, resisted tons of pressure to come over earlier, and became stars.
But the thing to notice is now the Russian players who go to the CHL are dropping like the Titanic in the draft and that guys who stayed in RU are going higher. This tells me that the NHL brass is now aware of how low of a percentage of Russian players that go to the CHL at 17 pan out and are avoiding them.
But they still don't fully understand the issue. So what NHL brass does instead is after taking players who avoided CHL is pressure them over one year later. In their mind they must think that by bringing them over at 18 that it will somehow avoid the issue that happens to the 17 year olds.
So in the NHL brass evolvement in their understanding of this they are still ruining tons of young players.
So as far as young players and the draft 'Russian factor' seems not to have a lot of meaning anymore because NHL gms themself are mostly avoiding players who take the NA route.
Its also comical when this term is applied to Russian players who took the NA path and did everything the ppl who push this term want, then after failing to succeed as an NHL player they return to RU after wallowing in the minors a few years.
So the term seems to just be for general Russophobia and to smear any player that goes back to Russia regardless of circumstances, and any young player resisting pressure to come over early, even if it means resisting this pressure will result in them being a much better player.
But the thing to notice is now the Russian players who go to the CHL are dropping like the Titanic in the draft and that guys who stayed in RU are going higher. This tells me that the NHL brass is now aware of how low of a percentage of Russian players that go to the CHL at 17 pan out and are avoiding them.
But they still don't fully understand the issue. So what NHL brass does instead is after taking players who avoided CHL is pressure them over one year later. In their mind they must think that by bringing them over at 18 that it will somehow avoid the issue that happens to the 17 year olds.
So in the NHL brass evolvement in their understanding of this they are still ruining tons of young players.
So as far as young players and the draft 'Russian factor' seems not to have a lot of meaning anymore because NHL gms themself are mostly avoiding players who take the NA route.
Its also comical when this term is applied to Russian players who took the NA path and did everything the ppl who push this term want, then after failing to succeed as an NHL player they return to RU after wallowing in the minors a few years.
So the term seems to just be for general Russophobia and to smear any player that goes back to Russia regardless of circumstances, and any young player resisting pressure to come over early, even if it means resisting this pressure will result in them being a much better player.
I only care about russian players. I stated it multiple times on this board. If you have a problem with that I don't really care.
My team is the russian national team. Everythung that helps developing players for it is welcome. Everything hurting that development I see as a problem.
glovesave_35
Name
I get what you're saying here and this may not directly relate to your post, but what about Kucherov. He played one more season in Russia after his draft, came over and played a season in the QMJHL and then was a full time NHL'er by his draft +3 season. What does his case prove or disprove?
His case basically proves that you can't butcher a talent that big. He would pan out anyway, just like Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby. Those players succed regardless of the league, rink size and so on.
The players a tier or two below are a very different story. They need time and proper development and proper treatment. If all comes together well they can become stars, but obviously often later in their career, like Panarin for example.
Crede777
Deputized
- Dec 16, 2009
- 14,639
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While Kuznetsov did fall because of the Russian factor, that had more to do with the fact that he was staying in the KHL after being drafted.
Despite his ability, the fact that he didn't come to the NHL until the 2013-2014 season and the uncertainty around that means he should rightly fall out of the top-5.
Despite his ability, the fact that he didn't come to the NHL until the 2013-2014 season and the uncertainty around that means he should rightly fall out of the top-5.
Amazing Kreiderman
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2011
- 44,848
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Buchnevich was ranked as a top-10 European skater prior to the draft by CSS.
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
- Jun 22, 2011
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So to defend the prospect ranking - I believe we all had him pegged as a "boom/bust" prospect, and the guys who ended up ahead of him we viewed as much safer picks. And - to be fair - every single guy above him is a contributing NHLer, so it's not *that* embarrassing of a ranking in hindsight. One thing I will note about Tampa fans though - we tend to value (maybe overvalue?) NHL-ready players over high upside players in our voting.
- Sep 28, 2014
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One thing I love about Hextall is his willingness to ignore the Russian factor. Aside from Provorov who was a WHL product, he traded back in the 1st to nab German Rubstov, drafted Mikhail Vorobyev who has come over to NA and is playing well in the AHL and used a 3rd in 2017 on unheralded (at the time) KHL goalie Kirill Ustimenko.
glovesave_35
Name
You can't credit a league for developing a player, who played 50 games in it in his draft+1 season. For helping to get used to new rinks and life style? Of course. But not for developing.
kp61c
Registered User
Caser
@RUSProspects
glovesave_35
Name
What the puck is the story with North Americans saying staying in the KHL like it's a bad thing? What'S he point of havng your drafted prospect in NA?
glovesave_35
Name
I can't tell if you're playing coy or what. The success of the KHL is itself a legitimate reason for fans of a hockey team in North America to be concerned whether a Russian player will leave the KHL for the NHL. And if they do come to NA and they don't have success to the degree they expected, or are asked to season in the minors in NA for a bit, they, more than any other nationality, may go back home to play hockey for a living.
You can't seriously credit the KHL with so much of a player's development, espousing the virtues of the league, and then act surprised when we have this mentality. And it isn't a figment of our imagination.
Alessandro Seren Rosso
Registered User
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