Kostitsyn vs Semin

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txpd

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Patrick - Flames Fan said:
10 goals in 52 games....How is that proven that Semin can score??? Semin hasn't proved anything yet.

If you had seen him play on a regular basis you would know that his ice time was very minimul in maybe half of those games. 10 goals in 52 games with 12:37 of average ice time is pretty good. additionally 19 goals in 41 RSL games is fairly eye popping as well. Dainius Zubrus, a solid 15 goal NHL player, is on the same team and has 8 goals in 33 games. I think that is certainly an indication of where his scoring skill level is.
 

EroCaps

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txpd said:
If you had seen him play on a regular basis you would know that his ice time was very minimul in maybe half of those games. 10 goals in 52 games with 12:37 of average ice time is pretty good. additionally 19 goals in 41 RSL games is fairly eye popping as well. Dainius Zubrus, a solid 15 goal NHL player, is on the same team and has 8 goals in 33 games. I think that is certainly an indication of where his scoring skill level is.

And Zubrus is far better physically equipt to play in that league.
 

txpd

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MS said:
Semin was more effective last year in the NHL at age 19 than Kostitsyn is this year in the AHL at age 19.

Semin, and it isn't close.

I think its also worth mentioning that Semin just about torched the AHL in a few games at the end of last season. 4 pts in 4 regular season games and then 11pts in 7 playoff games.
 

Jacob

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Chipchura said:
Obviously. Semin is almost a year older (11 months to be accurate). Do you realize what one year can do in a young prospect's career?

I'll take both of them, though. Can't decide. :D
I think CC is saying that Semin at 19 was ahead of Kostitsyn at 19.
 

BORAT

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I guess your right ! but heck its just my opinion, I really like Kostsitysn though, the guy really carried his team.
 

MS

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Freaky Habs Fan said:
As for the Semin/Perezhogin comparaison, I think it's pretty accurate. They play the same type of game and have almost the same potential. The only thing is that Semin might score more goals than Perez...

And for those who take Semin over Kostitsyn sooooo easily and by a wide margin, can you explain me why?

Because Semin is more talented, more dynamic, more productive, and more effective at the same age.

Last season, at age 19, Semin was garnering top-6 icetime in the NHL by midseason and producing quality numbers. When he was sent to the AHL after Washington was eliminated from the playoffs, he was dominant and absolutely tore a strip out of that league in limited action. Had he spent the entire season in the AHL, he likely would have been amongst the league's leading scorers as a teenager.

Kostitsyn, at the same age, is struggling to produce as a third-liner in the AHL.

This thread is like asking if someone would prefer Patrice Bergeron or Dave Bolland right now. No knock on Bolland, who is a nice talent, will likely play in the NHL, and -who knows - may someday be a better player than Bergeron, but it's as close to a no-brainer as you'll ever see if you had to pick one. Same with Semin vs. Kostitsyn.
 

417

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They're two different players who've followed two completely different paths to North America and play for 2 different teams...I think Semin is ahead of Kostitsyn right now, and I think very higly of Semin, however, I think in the longrun, they both will be good players, it'll just be a quesiton of preference between both, Kostitsyn has the better physical package, while Semin has more hockey sense...this dosen't have to turn into a praise Semin, and bash Kostitsyn thread, like I know this is heading towards...
 

Captain Conservative

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Chipchura said:
Obviously. Semin is almost a year older (11 months to be accurate). Do you realize what one year can do in a young prospect's career?

I'll take both of them, though. Can't decide. :D


I've said it a million times before, and I'll say it again. Development is not guaranteed. I think Kostitsyn will fufill his potential, he seems to have a good head on his shoulders, but Semin has already taken that next step. He has been playing like a man possessed in the RSL this year.
 

txpd

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Chisbenbengood said:
The Way I see it,

Semin has not been that spectacular ( from what I gather) in his NHL Debut 22 points in 52 games ( as a highly touted prospect hmmm.) but then again what will Kostsitsyn's point total look like in his fisrst season ? hmmm.

but these are very very different players, on one hand you have a guy who can carry his team on his shoulders ( Kost,Belarus), andthe other has shown to be more of a follower in his role ( Russia, Semin) I guess the arrival of Ovechkin will help !

But do not forget ! Ovechkin is not a tough person to shut down, he may have Lemieux-ish skills, but has shown he will back off if physically confronted.

This is the thing that diferentiates him from guys like Kovalchuk, Heatley, Lemieux, Forsberg etc...

Semin at best might turn out 60 to 70 point seasons in Rucinskyish ways ( Rucinsky & Jagr style) but with a center not willing to sacrifice himself... well his rookie season talks for itself.

as for Kostsitsyn, only time will tell, he has not had the opportunity yet to show us what he can do

I think first of all the absolutely wrong thing to say regarding Semin is that he "has not been that spectacular." He is a highlight reel. Its unfortunate that so many of his 52 games were spent largely sitting on the bench. But when he did get the chance to play on one of the top 2 lines he was brilliant. After Lang was traded he moved into Lang's spot on the power play and with Jagr, Lang, Gonchar and Bondra all gone and Semin running the show the Caps power play scored at the same rate as with the allstars.

I think you need to understand that Semin is a player with a bag of fresh moves that has embarrassed some of the NHL's best defensemen with his stuff. Remember Denis Savard and that is the kind of player that he is.
 

BORAT

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Wow Captain Conservative, you are really upset with me, I'll make it simple for you.

I have seen Kostsitsyn carry a Team, I have not seen Semin do the same, point wise, If you have any knowledge on how Belarussians are treated in Russia ( even Hockey Players) you'd understand that they are considered second class citizens at best. Kostsitsyn in Russia was never given equal oportunity a guy like Semin had.

Only recently are things changing, and when you play for CSKA ( which my father did for 6 years) it is the toughest place in Russia for young players because of expectations.

Semin is a good player in my analysis I even say that he will probably reach a great potential of 60 to 70 points in the NHL

but I wouldn't under estimate Kostsitsyn.

there, please, no more fghting with me.
 

Freaky Habs Fan

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MS said:
Because Semin is more talented, more dynamic, more productive, and more effective at the same age.

Last season, at age 19, Semin was garnering top-6 icetime in the NHL by midseason and producing quality numbers. When he was sent to the AHL after Washington was eliminated from the playoffs, he was dominant and absolutely tore a strip out of that league in limited action. Had he spent the entire season in the AHL, he likely would have been amongst the league's leading scorers as a teenager.

Kostitsyn, at the same age, is struggling to produce as a third-liner in the AHL.

Semin made the Caps because they suck! They don't have 20 000 persons each night to their games. They don't have the media pressure of Montreal. That being said, If the Habs would have drafted Semin, he wouldn't have played a songle game in the NHL...

If the season start in two weeks, Kostistyn will not make the team...He have the skills and everything but Montreal never rushed their prospects. Before the WJC, Kostistyn was just starting to have quality ice time in Hamilton. He's ready to produce and the points should come in the next few weeks. And BTW, Kostitsyn was playing on the fourth line with guys like Ivanans and Carpentier. Tell me how he was supposed to score...

Also, if Semin was that good in the AHL playoff, it was mostly because he had a season to learn everything of N-A. We should talk about Kostitsyn at the end of the season, when he should put many pooints on the board on a struggling team!
 

EroCaps

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Freaky Habs Fan said:
Semin made the Caps because they suck! They don't have 20 000 persons each night to their games. They don't have the media pressure of Montreal. That being said, If the Habs would have drafted Semin, he wouldn't have played a songle game in the NHL...

If the season start in two weeks, Kostistyn will not make the team...He have the skills and everything but Montreal never rushed their prospects. Before the WJC, Kostistyn was just starting to have quality ice time in Hamilton. He's ready to produce and the points should come in the next few weeks. And BTW, Kostitsyn was playing on the fourth line with guys like Ivanans and Carpentier. Tell me how he was supposed to score...

Also, if Semin was that good in the AHL playoff, it was mostly because he had a season to learn everything of N-A. We should talk about Kostitsyn at the end of the season, when he should put many pooints on the board on a struggling team!

Excuses, excuses.

Semin scored at will in the AHL, in a league, and with players he was completely unaccustomed to.

He was excellent for the Caps when he played top 6 minutes, finishing the season QB'ing the powerplay and scoring at a very good clip.

Under different circumstances, he would have challenged for the Calder. (This applies to a handful of players, naturally).

For the better part of the season he was buried behind better talent and poorer coaching than was in Montreal. And saying that culture of the organization prevents Kostitsyn from excelling really does a diservice to him by giving him such an easy out.
 

PJ Wiggum

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EroCaps said:
Excuses, excuses.

Semin scored at will in the AHL, in a league, and with players he was completely unaccustomed to.

He was excellent for the Caps when he played top 6 minutes, finishing the season QB'ing the powerplay and scoring at a very good clip.

.
It seems the Capitols coloured glasses are strongly attached to this guy. If you would look at the game to game stats you would know that Kostitson has only played about 4-6 minutes a game and has only recently recieved the ice time he deserves.
EroCaps said:
Under different circumstances, he would have challenged for the Calder. (This applies to a handful of players, naturally).

For the better part of the season he was buried behind better talent and poorer coaching than was in Montreal. And saying that culture of the organization prevents Kostitsyn from excelling really does a diservice to him by giving him such an easy out
You were blaming FHF about making excuses, what do you call this: under different circumstances he would have challenged for the Calder. He would have had to play with Peter Forsberg and Milan Hejduk the whole year because he would'nt score 65 points anywhere else. Even that tally wouldn't compare to Raycroft's season. Also if he was property of Montreal he would still be in the AHL not playing like a man possesed as you put it.
 

Vladiator

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Chisbenbengood said:
But do not forget ! Ovechkin is not a tough person to shut down, he may have Lemieux-ish skills, but has shown he will back off if physically confronted.

Not tough to shut down? Backed off when challenged? The guy got injured for god sake! He still can't play because of that! We don't know how it would turn out if he wasn't. Or are you one of the people who claim that if a player gets injured and cannot finish a game then he is a wimp? Well, then Lemieux is the biggest wimp of them all!
 

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gerf said:
It seems the Capitols coloured glasses are strongly attached to this guy. If you would look at the game to game stats you would know that Kostitson has only played about 4-6 minutes a game and has only recently recieved the ice time he deserves.

If he can only get 4-6 min a game on a fourth line in the AHL I think it says an awful lot about his progression at this point. He's getting that time because he apparently has to earn his icetime, and if all his ability warrants at this point in his development is fourth line time it sure doesn't say much about him right now.
 

fred2792

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Kostitsyn all the way! I like the two player but Kostitsyn have better asset, a better shot, more gritty and physical dimension. Perezhogin is a better comparison with Semin but even there, I prefer Perezhogin. But I'm a habs fan, so...
 

Jacob

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Chisbenbengood said:
I guess your right ! but heck its just my opinion, I really like Kostsitysn though, the guy really carried his team.
Carried his team where?
 

EroCaps

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gerf said:
It seems the Capitols coloured glasses are strongly attached to this guy. If you would look at the game to game stats you would know that Kostitson has only played about 4-6 minutes a game and has only recently recieved the ice time he deserves.

You were blaming FHF about making excuses, what do you call this: under different circumstances he would have challenged for the Calder. He would have had to play with Peter Forsberg and Milan Hejduk the whole year because he would'nt score 65 points anywhere else. Even that tally wouldn't compare to Raycroft's season. Also if he was property of Montreal he would still be in the AHL not playing like a man possesed as you put it.

You don't think for a moment there's a reason he's not getting the ice time in the AHL, as an "elite" prospect? Semin was 4-5 years younger than the leading Calder canidates, playing for a coach who despised playing rookies, under threat of losing his job.Those aren't excuses, they're circumstances. For whatever reason, the leading Calder contenders depth charts left them off the squad well past the age at which the Caps brought in Semin. Semin went on to actually overcome most of his critics during his time in the NHL, AHL, and now RSL.

I never actually CHOSE Semin, if you paid any attention. I haven't seen enough of Kostitsyn. I was just making the case that Semin has done more w/his opportunities thus far.
 

HuskyFlames

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txpd said:
If you had seen him play on a regular basis you would know that his ice time was very minimul in maybe half of those games. 10 goals in 52 games with 12:37 of average ice time is pretty good. additionally 19 goals in 41 RSL games is fairly eye popping as well. Dainius Zubrus, a solid 15 goal NHL player, is on the same team and has 8 goals in 33 games. I think that is certainly an indication of where his scoring skill level is.

Honestly, who cares about the Russian league when I am going against a statement that is saying he is a porven NHL scorer. It is two different leagues and 2 different styles of play.
 

417

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b-mad said:
If he can only get 4-6 min a game on a fourth line in the AHL I think it says an awful lot about his progression at this point. He's getting that time because he apparently has to earn his icetime, and if all his ability warrants at this point in his development is fourth line time it sure doesn't say much about him right now.

Yes it does say alot about his progression, it says that he's a young player who's didin't have a clue about defense, he came to Hamilton to play under a coach who's known to be a defensive coach, Doug Jarvis, he spent the 1st 20 games or so improving his defensive game, adapting to a new culture, etc...he then left for the WJC's, excelled there, and since he's come back, he's now playing among the top 6, and his production is becoming more regular...

It's not like players are robots, just because Semin came here and played well right from the start and it's taking Kostitsyn more time, dosen't mean that one is better than the other, players aren't programmed to succeed right away, it takes some more time than others, there's so many examples, even here in North America, it took how long before Chris Pronger was able to dominate in the NHL, it didn't happen right away, but look at him now, Dan Hamhuis last year had a great season in his first season, does that mean that he's better than Pronger now???

Some of you are funny, you know nothing about what Kostitsyn has been though this year, you don't know how he's become a much more complete player at the expense of his offensive game, but in the long run, it'll make him a much better player, and if all goes according to schedule, a better overall player than Semin...

Anyways, he's played much, much better since his return from the WJC's, but don't forget the type of coach he plays for, just because he dosen't put up huge #'s dosen't mean he's a bust, the leading scorer for hamilton, Tomas Plekanec and all-star, dosen't even have 40 points :eek:

It's like Marian Gaborik, I'm of the opinion that if he didin't play for jacques Lemaire, he'd rack up alot more points than he has...

circumstances play a huge factor when it comes to prospects...why should it be different for Kostitsyn?
 

bryan579

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Yes it does say alot about his progression, it says that he's a young player who's didin't have a clue about defense, he came to Hamilton to play under a coach who's known to be a defensive coach, Doug Jarvis, he spent the 1st 20 games or so improving his defensive game, adapting to a new culture, etc...

Semin did all of that also, Tim Army, the head coach of the pirates is also very defensive but that didnt stop Semin from coming in and dominating offensively right away
 

CH Wizard

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EroCaps said:
You don't think for a moment there's a reason he's not getting the ice time in the AHL, as an "elite" prospect?

???

He didn't get too much icetime , in the beginning of the year because the coach was worry about his defensive game.He didn't want to put his team in danger while having Kost on the ice.He has improved in that area.He isn't afraid to play physical at all.He's now getting first line icetime with some PP icetime.It's not like , he isn't enough good to play on the first line.He's an elite prospect , he has scary potential.He needs to just improve even more defensively.He has all offensive tools.He's a great passer , he has a great shot and he isn't a bad skater either.Hamilton is a young , unexperienced team.Even guys like Pleks , Ward aren't scoring too much.Ward was one of the best AHLer not a long time ago.I don't
expect much offensively from his this year.We were worry about his defensive play but I saw him play like 3,4 times and he was good along the boards.He wasn't afraid to hit.


All and all , I expect a big season from him , next year.Many veterans will be gone , he'll receive more icetime.Perezhogin , Grabovsky will like play in Hamilton , next year.He'll be more comfortable with his teammates.

Anyways...........................

As for the thread , I'd take Semin.He's more safer and he already proven that he can score at the NHL level.
 
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