Kopitar's All-Time ranking amongst European Centres

[SettlementRichie10]

Kopitar’s offensive peak came during a historically low scoring period. Important to remember.

Forsberg is ahead of him. Malkin is ahead of him. And then I would put Kopitar, Datsyuk, and Federov all in the same tier.

 

[Dingo]

I was going to do a deep dive when I have time, but there are a lot of parallels between Modano and Kopitar.

Both spent all (or virtually all) of their career with a southern USA team. Both were excellent two-way players, and probably could have scored more, had they not focused on defense so diligently. Both were pretty clearly the best forward on their team for the majority of their careers. Neither had a really huge peak season (the closest would be Kopitar's 2018 campaign), but were steadily in the 5-10 range among forwards for an extended period. Neither was overly physical, but they weren't pushed around. Both lost the Conn Smythe to a weaker forward in playoff runs when they really should have won.

In terms of differences - Modano was a better skater, and a better goal-scorer. Kopitar was a better playmaker (but overall offensive production was similar). Kopitar's Selke trophy voting results look much stronger, but I think that exaggerates the gap (he was better defensively than Modano, but not by nearly as large a gap as the results would suggest).

(An argument can be made that the Kings wasted a big portion of Kopitar's career. They missed the playoffs nine times, and lost in the first round five times. But those other years? Two Stanley Cups and a loss in the conference finals against the semi-dynasty Blackhawks. The team went 41-23 (64% win percentage) in those three seasons, and 8-20 the rest of his career (29%). During those three years, Kopitar led the Kings in assists and points, and led all forwards in blocked shots, takeaways, faceoffs won/taken, and ice time at ES, on the powerplay, and on the penalty kill).

I was going to say that the biggest thing you left out in terms of how they play is that Kopitar is a monster. But, I did not realize that Modano was nearly as big!

However - Kopitar is bigger for his era

I wonder if Modano's speed vs Kopitar isnt somewhat visually affected by the guys around them, too

 

[Felidae]

Are we confident with Kopitar > Stastny?

We are after all, talking about a player with the 3rd best offensive peak and prime after Malkin and Forsberg. (Of the centers mentioned)

Kopitar definitely aged better, esp 30 onwards. But is that enough to trump leading a decade in scoring behind Gretzky? Even on a per game basis, he's only behind Bossy and Lemieux, each of whom played at least 200 fewer games. He bested the likes of prime Yzerman, Savard, Hawerchuk, Kurri and Messier. Pretty strong forward competition even excluding Gretzky and Lemieux.

 

[RegDunlop]

What about old Yaroslav Pouzar? JK!

I think Kop is one of the most underrated player in the league for over a decade.
Tough list - for me Forsberg tops it easily. I may have Anse as high as second. Great career.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Are we confident with Kopitar > Stastny?

Quite confident, for me. I think Stastny's raw totals overstate his dominance in my viewings. The Normie Ullman of the 80's...not a piece of garbage by any stretch, but Stastny gets a lot of miles out of "second to Gretzky in the 80's"...Ullman is probably just about in that spot for the 60's, maybe a little lower because of that Chicago duo...but still...

I'll throw Stastny a bone in that he missed a chunk of his prime over in Czech and that time coincided with an easy scoring environment. And he showed adaptability by not only putting up points in the messy early 80's, but also after '87, and really all the way through into the early 90's, despite his advanced age. That's why I won't sewer him completely. Adaptability matters.

 

[wetcoast]

Malkin
Fedorov
Forsberg
Datsyuk
Draisaitl
Kopitar
Stasny
Zetterberg

Best list so far but to be honest after Malkin each player has certain strengths and weaknesses compared to each other.

I also wonder how much more Draisaitl has to do to pass the 2. Guys ahead of him as I think it's doubtfull that he surpasses Malkin.

 

[MadLuke]

I think Kop is one of the most underrated player in the league for over a decade.

Replacing the Backstrom answer (Barkov got out of it ?).

I think he has a strong case, which is strange because it is a big market that won 2 cups and we would not say that of Doughty-Quick, west coast + playing on team Slovenia maybe did not help getting as watch by everyone.

Would he have been a mainstay of team canada or usa instead like Doughty, maybe he would not have been underrated at all and had Bergeron "street" reputation with more longevity, one more cup, etc....

 

[wetcoast]

I think it is more not able a way to put him above Kopitar. (I thought about him before leaving him out)

Nilson if you take only his NHL career into account, you would be left with no much, he scored 169 pts in 170 games during the highest of the highest scoring era.

Larionov give you much more but once he adjusted to the nhl he was already pass 30

Sedum is also hard to put above any of the other centers listed here and his playoff resume certainly doesn't help.

 

[hypereconomist]

Kopitar’s offensive peak came during a historically low scoring period. Important to remember.

Forsberg is ahead of him. Malkin is ahead of him. And then I would put Kopitar, Datsyuk, and Federov all in the same tier.

The lower scoring period was compounded even more by playing under Darryl Sutter. We were robbed of seeing the gaudier point totals that Kopitar would have put up on any other team in the league during his prime while also delivering his selke-caliber defensive play.

Kopitar is just as good as Datsyuk and should probably have the edge when factoring in his longevity

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

hard for me not to put kop ahead of datsyuk and sundin

i think among centers i’d have kop somewhere around but a little ahead of modano, who i would put ahead of datsyuk because a ful half decade of longevity (prime and career) matters when their peaks are so close

you could probably convince me that kopitar is ahead of francis too. so that really just leaves malkin definitively ahead of him, with forsberg and fedorov being debatable depending on how much one values peak vs consistency and longevity. i almost feel like kop vs those two is like francis vs savard/hawerchuk

 

[Ghetty Green]

hard for me to to put kop ahead of datsyuk and sundin

i think among centers i’d have kop somewhere around but a little ahead of modano, who i would put ahead of datsyuk because a ful half decade of longevity (prime and career) matters when their peaks are so close

you could probably convince me that kopitar is ahead of francis too. so that really just leaves malkin definitively ahead of him, with forsberg and fedorov being debatable depending on how much one values peak vs consistency and longevity. i almost feel like kop vs those two is like francis vs savard/hawerchuk

I think he easily clears Sundin when it's all said and done

 

[BraveCanadian]

The lower scoring period was compounded even more by playing under Darryl Sutter. We were robbed of seeing the gaudier point totals that Kopitar would have put up on any other team in the league during his prime while also delivering his selke-caliber defensive play.

Kopitar is just as good as Datsyuk and should probably have the edge when factoring in his longevity

Agreed but it has the opposite effect as well in that Kopitar probably ended up better defensively than he maybe would have otherwise.

 

[VanIslander]

Among Europeans at that position?

I am 55 years old next month. My brain isn't wired that way. My knowledge of identity politics needs a patch.

I am unwilling today (maybe tomorrow) to filter great centers in the NHL by continental origin. Yet this equally is a shout-out opp for those from one's hometown, countrymen, and the like.

Note: Soviets stand out, and for good reason. They played elsewhere and took on our best. Larionov was the Prof, underrated in his passing, vision and leadership; Maltsev was the multipositional dancer; Petrov an all-time great never given his due.

EDIT: I have thought Pivonka has been vastly underrated because he and Bondra were a duo of great chemistry but the goal scorer got the credit over the passer (as usual, recalling the 3 fastest goals of all time being scored by Bill Mosienko and all of them off of faceoffs won by - and immediate great passes made by - forgotten Gus Bodnar (Calder trophy winner, 4 times top-10 in assists).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think he easily clears Sundin when it's all said and done

oops typo, meant to say hard for me *not* to put kopitar ahead of sundin and datsyuk

 

[VanIslander]

See? Sundin i think of with a Maple Leaf on his chest. "Hey he is Cana-... oh, yeah." I cannot think of Sundin without thinking of Toronto. My Vancouver Island mind is so wired (I am a VanIslander).

Whereas Hasek i recall as that friggin' Czech who stonewalled all our centers in the Olympics: Fedorov, Yashin.. the Americans and then Canadians (but not Gretz, my flippin' 'Nucks coach wouldn't play the greatest center of all time - analytics ... ahhh... still ain't over that), then the Russians again.

 

[hypereconomist]

Agreed but it has the opposite effect as well in that Kopitar probably ended up better defensively than he maybe would have otherwise.

Kopitar was top 10 in Selke voting before Sutter joined the Kings and was already trending into a player that would have received perennial Selke consideration regardless of whether Sutter was there or not. Arguably, Sutter benefitted more from having a two-way stud like Kopitar than Kopitar's defensive game did from having Sutter.

Similar to how Iginla was a 65-75 point player with Sutter and a 90-100 point player without Sutter, I don't think it's a stretch to say that Kopitar likely ends up with another "lights out" season or two, similar to 2017-18, without Sutter's tight-checking, low event defensive system hindering him offensively during his prime.

 

[Ghetty Green]

Kopitar was top 10 in Selke voting before Sutter joined the Kings and was already trending into a player that would have received perennial Selke consideration regardless of whether Sutter was there or not. Arguably, Sutter benefitted more from having a two-way stud like Kopitar than Kopitar's defensive game did from having Sutter.

Similar to how Iginla was a 65-75 point player with Sutter and a 90-100 point player without Sutter, I don't think it's a stretch to say that Kopitar likely ends up with another "lights out" season or two, similar to 2017-18, without Sutter's tight-checking, low event defensive system hindering him offensively during his prime.

Agreed. If anything Terry Murray deserves the credit for making Kopitar so great defensively. Sutter simply built on the foundation that TM created.