Konstantinov's Underrated Offense

ricky0034

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
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You didn't answer the question.

What measure do you use to compare offensive ability?

Second question: If Lidstrom was superior offensively, why does Konstantinov produce more at even strength?

you compare it by looking at the full picture

it's clear they are more or less a wash at even strength

I have two guys that are 8/10s at even strength and ones also a 8/10 on the powerplay while the other one is a ?/10 there

give me the actual proven high end ability over the question mark every time
 
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Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Mar 4, 2004
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Honestly I think Lidstrom's play was underrated prior to the 97 Finals and then Vladdy's accident in great part because he was in Konstantinov's shadow (and Lidstrom's play is extremely effective but not flashy).

Konstantinov was a beast for sure.
 

jkutswings

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Jul 10, 2014
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you compare it by looking at the full picture

it's clear they are more or less a wash at even strength

I have two guys that are 8/10s at even strength and ones also a 8/10 on the powerplay while the other one is a ?/10 there

give me the actual proven high end ability over the question mark every time
Hang on. I need your age before I decide how logical your logic is.

Under 30: Illogical
30-40: Partly logical
40-50: Mostly logical
50-60: Very logical
Over 60: The epitome of logic

:sarcasm:
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Mar 4, 2004
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That's absolutely untrue. Unfortunately, Wayne State's archives aren't great for linking, but if you go here and search for Lidstrom, you'll find the following quotes:

Lidstrom might not be noticed by NHL fans, but players, coaches, scouts and executives know that Lidstrom is one of the most effective defensemen in the league.
“He’s maybe the most underrated defenseman in the NHL,” said New York Islanders scout Ken Morrow, a former NHL defenseman who won four Stanley Cups with the New York Islanders from 1980-83. “He does the same things, quietly, that the stars do.”
[...]
Ramsey marvels at Lidstrom’s outstanding foot work, which allows him to almost always beat an opposing forward coming down the wing.​

That article was written in 1995.

The article is a bit choppy, but it makes the point, clearly, that Lidstrom was getting significantly better as a defensive player, and that it was being widely noticed around the league.

Most of the article was about Lidstrom getting more recognition, not getting better. It mentions him improving in front of the net after coming over from Sweden, but 1996 was his 5th season in the NHL. It's not like it was just happening then.

Of course he got better the more he played in the league but the biggest factor in him not getting attention was being a quiet Swedish guy who plays a subtle but effective game on a team with the likes of Coffey and Konstantinov.
 
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njx9

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Feb 1, 2016
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Most of the article was about Lidstrom getting more recognition, not getting better. It mentions him improving in front of the net after coming over from Sweden, but 1996 was his 5th season in the NHL. It's not like it was just happening then.

Of course he got better the more he played in the league but the biggest factor in him not getting attention was being a quiet Swedish guy who plays a subtle but effective game on a team with the likes of Coffey and Konstantinov.

Sure, all I was arguing with was the ridiculous assertion that he wasn't "thought of" as a good defensive player prior to 1997 or whatever.

The article makes it pretty clear that, as soon as he stopped playing with Coffey, people started to notice how good he really was, not that he was necessarily suddenly a lot better or anything.
 
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Redder Winger

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Sure, all I was arguing with was the ridiculous assertion that he wasn't "thought of" as a good defensive player prior to 1997 or whatever.

The article makes it pretty clear that, as soon as he stopped playing with Coffey, people started to notice how good he really was, not that he was necessarily suddenly a lot better or anything.

Wow. So hostile. For what? To essentially agree with me?
When did he stop playing with Coffey?
1996-97. The year I said that he finally started getting credit for any sort of defense.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
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Tampere, Finland
Sure, all I was arguing with was the ridiculous assertion that he wasn't "thought of" as a good defensive player prior to 1997 or whatever.

The article makes it pretty clear that, as soon as he stopped playing with Coffey, people started to notice how good he really was, not that he was necessarily suddenly a lot better or anything.

It funny, I've backed many left-handed defenceman who get slack about playing on the right side. I even made some statistics about Red Wings defencemen (Quincey, Ericsson, Smith etc.), that lefties on the right have more giveaways than lefties on the left. And when the position changes, the stats go hand-in-hand.

Even Lidström had problems, he played right side with Coffey. And Coffey as himself was hazardous, especially on his final days. When Coffey was gone and Murphy came, Lidström domination started. He was put on the left side, he could be himself without any handness weakness or so and never had to change anymore. 7 Norrises, 4 Cups after that.
 

jkutswings

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For each of the top 6 players in Norris Trophy voting in 1995-96, here are their points scored either at even strength or shorthanded (power play scoring eliminated):

Chelios, 7-34-41
Bourque, 11-33-44
Leetch, 8-33-41
Konstantinov, 11-15-26
Coffey, 11-30-41
Lidstrom, 9-21-30

If that's apples to apples, I don't think Konstantinov has an argument for best defenseman in the league.
 

Redder Winger

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May 4, 2017
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For each of the top 6 players in Norris Trophy voting in 1995-96, here are their points scored either at even strength or shorthanded (power play scoring eliminated):

Chelios, 7-34-41
Bourque, 11-33-44
Leetch, 8-33-41
Konstantinov, 11-15-26
Coffey, 11-30-41
Lidstrom, 9-21-30

If that's apples to apples, I don't think Konstantinov has an argument for best defenseman in the league.
Konstantinov was +60.
 

TheOtherOne

Registered User
Jan 2, 2010
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I have zero issue with using any particular stat as part of evidence to support a claim.

I take major issue with pretending that only even strength production counts towards the value of a player.

Same deal with P/60, or +/-, or any other stat. If it's part of the puzzle, that's AOK. But if it's held up all by itself, that's a very flawed argument.

Not to mention the thread title is about his underrated offense, but the content goes on to focus on his defense.
Man I'm sorry but that argument is ridiculous. The OP used the stat correctly and in proper context. He showed clear evidence that when placed in similar situations, Konstantinov produced more efficiently than Lidstrom. You're the one trying to compare apples to oranges. The "advanced stats" in the OP are perfectly appropriate to support the argument for which player was more effective for the majority of time in which nobody was in the box.
 
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jkutswings

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At some point, you reach the conclusion that it's no longer a discussion, and people are just talking past each other. I'm out.

 

njx9

Registered User
Feb 1, 2016
2,161
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Wow. So hostile. For what? To essentially agree with me?
When did he stop playing with Coffey?
1996-97. The year I said that he finally started getting credit for any sort of defense.

You think that was a *hostile* response? Mmm, ok.

Do you actually read anything anyone says to you, or do you just start nodding and making things up? The article I quoted was written in 1995 and noted that Lidstrom was playing with people other than Coffey.

Are you so busy madly pressing keys in a desperate bid to shout over everyone else that you can't read very, very simple words? Take a deep breath, bro. It'll be ok if you're wrong about something every so often.
 

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