News Article: Konstantinov

silkyjohnson50

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Jan 10, 2007
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Kulfan has a nice article up about Vladdy, the accident, and its impact. It was really the beginning of a long run of blueline instability because of freak injuries and accidents.

Losing Vladdy was a huge piece and he definitely had some years left in his tank and Fischer would have been a steady #3-4 type guy, but I don't fully understand the blueline instability comment. Really not until 5 left has that been a big issue.

In fact, the Wings had some of the most fortunate blueline success and stability I'd argue.

Just look at our Norris finishes from 1995-until Lidstrom's last.

95: 1st (Coffey)
96: 4th, 5th, 6th (Konstantinov, Coffey, Lidstrom)
97; 2nd, 6th (Konstantinov, Lidstrom)
98: 2nd (Lidstrom)
99: 2nd (Lidstrom)
00: 2nd (Lidstrom)
01: 1st (Lidstrom)
02: 1st, 2nd (Lidstrom, Chelios)
03: 1st (Lidstrom)
04: 6th, 7th (Lidstrom, Schneider)
06: 1st, 6th (Lidstrom, Schneider)
07: 1st (Lidstrom)
08: 1st, 9th (Lidstrom, Rafalski)
09: 3rd, 9th (Lidstrom, Rafalski)
10: 4th (Lidstrom)
11: 1st (Lidstrom)
12: 5th (Lidstrom)

Obviously a lot to do with Nick, but at the same time I doubt you can find another franchise that even comes close to that over that stretch.

That right there (thanks Nick) along with having 4 star 2-way centers is the main reason for all of our success.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Yeah i agree. Your foundation is rock solid when you have a 60+ point top three all time defenseman able to play 30+ minutes a night without skipping a beat.

As for Devellano's comments, i think it's really tough to make that argument. Too many variables.

I don't think it's that tough. He's saying the Wings would have been a much better team in the years following the crash if Vladdy was still there... and that's hardly a cause for debate. Vladdy was a 30 year old Norris Trophy candidate at the time of the wreck. Even if they don't pick up Chelios at the 1999 deadline, that's still a 31 year old Norris finalist instead of a 37 or 38 year old one... and then they've got a couple more firsts to pick up some other player.
 

Retire91

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May 31, 2010
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I don't think there is any argument 30 y.o. Konstinov would be preferred to 37 y.o. Chelios but I don't know that acquiring Chelios altered the trajectory of the franchise all that much. That was before the CAP era when the wings could sign big time UFA and also at a time when they were pulling hall of fame draft picks out of the 5th round. Chelios was also a more effective player at 37 than the average player due to his off ice work ethic and natural talent.

If they didn't have to make the trade then they keep Anders Erickson who in all respects would have been mostly a non factor. Maybe the wings luck out and snag Havlat or Tyutin with the picks but where the wings were picking in those days an impact player was a real long shot.
 

Winger98

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Feb 27, 2002
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I don't think it's that tough. He's saying the Wings would have been a much better team in the years following the crash if Vladdy was still there... and that's hardly a cause for debate. Vladdy was a 30 year old Norris Trophy candidate at the time of the wreck. Even if they don't pick up Chelios at the 1999 deadline, that's still a 31 year old Norris finalist instead of a 37 or 38 year old one... and then they've got a couple more firsts to pick up some other player.

It's not just that we were much better, it's that we had two pairings locked down at that point. After Vladdy, we then lost Krupp, Hatcher, and Fischer to injury. Lids was partnered with Dandeneult, Olausson, Schneider, Lilja, Bykov, and Markov for stretches. We traded for Chelly and Ulf.

I don't know how people can only look at Lids and not see how the Wings had to scramble to fill the rest of the blueline, and often had the rug jerked out from under them whenever they thought they were finally getting a long term answer there.
 

stu the grim reaper

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Jul 3, 2002
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They were. But so was Colorado... and Dallas. I mean, Washington was loaded for ****ing bear this year and they didn't win. Just because you've got a stacked team doesn't mean that you win all the time.

well the point is that it takes rare motivation to win back to back
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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well the point is that it takes rare motivation to win back to back

And what was Pittsburgh's rare motivation this year? How about the Islanders when they won 4 in a row? Edmonton when they won as many as they did.

Talent wins games. Motivation gives you a nice story... but the Wings won in 97-98 because they were one of the three best teams in hockey again.
 

19 for president

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I could maybe see one more cup with Vladdy, but really I think losing Fischer hurt the Wings more. They guy was finally breaking out finally and would have given the Wings a fantastic top 4 in the pre cap/ post cap era. They picked back up once they got Raffy but I think the Wings grab another cup in those in between years if they have Fischer. (Even though he wasn't as good as a prime Vladdy).
 

stu the grim reaper

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Jul 3, 2002
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can you imagine if you ever told a red wings fan that #16 was overrated?

im not saying that he's overrated for his playing days, but people do remember him with rose-colored glasses, and people fantasize about his further potential because he was so exciting to watch. but he would not have kept having +50 seasons for the rest of his career. it might not have always been a good thing that he got +130 PIM every year. not many players get better into their 30s...
 

stu the grim reaper

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And what was Pittsburgh's rare motivation this year? How about the Islanders when they won 4 in a row? Edmonton when they won as many as they did.

Talent wins games. Motivation gives you a nice story... but the Wings won in 97-98 because they were one of the three best teams in hockey again.

you sound like a lazy, talented person
 

SpookyTsuki

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Dec 3, 2014
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I could maybe see one more cup with Vladdy, but really I think losing Fischer hurt the Wings more. They guy was finally breaking out finally and would have given the Wings a fantastic top 4 in the pre cap/ post cap era. They picked back up once they got Raffy but I think the Wings grab another cup in those in between years if they have Fischer. (Even though he wasn't as good as a prime Vladdy).


Ehh idk. Maybe we don't get raffy if he isn't gone.

There are so many more ifs then just let's say in 2013 wings win the cup if lidstrom plays.
 

KasperTheGrittyGhost

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I could maybe see one more cup with Vladdy, but really I think losing Fischer hurt the Wings more. They guy was finally breaking out finally and would have given the Wings a fantastic top 4 in the pre cap/ post cap era. They picked back up once they got Raffy but I think the Wings grab another cup in those in between years if they have Fischer. (Even though he wasn't as good as a prime Vladdy).

Totally agreed. Honestly, I think it's a crazy argument to have. Add another top 10-12 defenseman to a stacked team, and the great odds we had to win a cup back then definitely would've gone up.

Losing Fischer really seemed to hobble the organization. Looking at the drafts back then, there's such a lack of emphasis on defensemen you can kind of surmise the front office expected him and Kronwall to run with the blue line after Lidstrom retired.
 

Syckle78

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Ehh idk. Maybe we don't get raffy if he isn't gone.

There are so many more ifs then just let's say in 2013 wings win the cup if lidstrom plays.

By the time we got rafalski Vlad would of been on his last legs. Probably a non factor there. Chelios,schneider and hatcher may or may not have happened.
 

Retire91

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Konstantinov and Fisher did hit the organization hard but I think Holland did a great job reacting to it. There were some misfires sure but Chelios, Rafalski, Schnieder, Stuart all stepped in and I don't think the wings really lost a competitive edge through the tragedy. There was not a giant talent drop off so I don't really think the wings are more competitive if the injuries don't occur.

That doesn't make the story any less of a bummer. I remember watching Fisher for the first little while and being like, I'm not so sure about this guy, and then towards the last little bit before his injury he took his game to another level and I was like wow we got a good one.
 

stu the grim reaper

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Konstantinov and Fisher did hit the organization hard but I think Holland did a great job reacting to it. There were some misfires sure but Chelios, Rafalski, Schnieder, Stuart all stepped in and I don't think the wings really lost a competitive edge through the tragedy. There was not a giant talent drop off so I don't really think the wings are more competitive if the injuries don't occur.

That doesn't make the story any less of a bummer. I remember watching Fisher for the first little while and being like, I'm not so sure about this guy, and then towards the last little bit before his injury he took his game to another level and I was like wow we got a good one.

fisher seemed to be benefiting so much from chelios; it felt like such an awful waste of HOF mentoring
 

avssuc

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I mean, you're right, but generally Norris-level defensemen can have a pretty positive effect on your overall defense.

I don't think it's a sure thing, but it's hard to imagine that having him on the ice would've done anything but make the team significantly better.

Agreed. Not to take anything away from Osgood, but the team in front of him was second to none during his tenure, and it could have been better without the unfortunate circumstances.

I think the wings picking up Chelios effectively covered Konstantinov's presence I don't know that Konstantinov would have changed the wings cup fortunes although it would be nice to not have to trade away assets in order to fill the hole. Chicago never really benefited from the assets we traded for him but maybe we could have had better fortune with those two first rounders.

Lidstrom and Konstantinov have to be one of the best defensive pairings to ever play? Its crazy how gritty Konstantinov was but rarely if ever took a bad penalty.

Imagine both of them on the same team, then imagine Fischer without the health issue that ended his career, maybe even toss in a healthy Krupp and useful Hatcher. There wouldn't be room for all of that awesomeness I'd like to travel to that time in a different multiverse!

Vladdy would have been 40 in 2008, but Fetisov remained more than able until he was 39, so I'd assume that would have been the case with Vlad. Like I said, I'd love to see the world where this happened... more so for the quality of life of those involved than anything else.
 

avssuc

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I know this isn't a Fischer thread, but I just wanted to share a story.

Back in 2008 I went to game 3 of the semi finals in Dallas. I got up early after the 1st period to grab a beer. On my way there, I turned a corner and almost ran into a gigantic well dressed man. It was Juri, and was cool enough to stop and chat for a bit. Still looked like he could lace em up and dominate out there. Real good guy, and a great player on his way up when tragedy hit.

I can't help but wonder how playing with Lidstrom would have helped him continue to grow. He's 36 right now and would probably still be dominating the back end.
 

14ari13

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Winning or repeating is difficult because of the injuries. A Long playoffs run means a very hard beating on the body.
We lost in '99 to the avs after starting the series 2-0 in their barn. Osgood was injured. But I do not know if we would win anyhow.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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I agree with Jimmy D.

I mean I thought it was Lidstrom. But there was an actual debate of who was better Lidstrom and Konstantinov. We had the money to keep them together through the lockout and it looked like we were going to have two top five D-man in their prime with the offensive fire power they had up front. It is hard to imagine they wouldn't have found another cup in there. I know you cannot count on it, I just believe he is right in believing that would have happened.
 

Henkka

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Vladdy was the Datsyuk of defencemen with phenomenal physical presence. Dirty, skilled, mean, smart, everything. Former forward, who adjusted to defence.

Would have become my favourite Red Wing of all time, if he would have had more years and I would have seen more games. He was +60 on 95-96 season, and I think nobody has beaten that number since that. Should have deserved Norris, but there was more attractive North-American Norris-candidates than some russian.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...51996&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=plusMinus

Still remember that Marc Crawford comment of -97 playoff series. "That guy would have deserved 2min penalty in every shift he played."
 

vladdy16

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Aug 2, 2005
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A lot of the comments in this thread are underestimating Konstantinov by more than just a little bit.

His presence on the team went far beyond production. He was the gravitational force that brought unyielding grit out of superstar talents and ambitious initiative out of role players.

The entire story arc of the 90's Red Wings growth towards balancing skill and toughness unfolded on the foundation that Konstantinov was the base of. Selfless and relentless being the calling card of our captain, there was nobody on the team that the captain looked to more than #16.

We never got to see it unfold, but the whispers from the ground level of that era indicate that while Konstantinov was already a borderline HOF talent, his intangibles were of a generational variety, and he was on a trajectory to being remembered as one of the all-time greats, not a great #2 with a couple all-star appearances.
 

14ari13

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Vladdy was the Datsyuk of defencemen with phenomenal physical presence. Dirty, skilled, mean, smart, everything. Former forward, who adjusted to defence.

Would have become my favourite Red Wing of all time, if he would have had more years and I would have seen more games. He was +60 on 95-96 season, and I think nobody has beaten that number since that. Should have deserved Norris, but there was more attractive North-American Norris-candidates than some russian.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...51996&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=plusMinus

Still remember that Marc Crawford comment of -97 playoff series. "That guy would have deserved 2min penalty in every shift he played."
He was +60, lidstrom +29. The following season, +39, lidstrom +11. Leading the team in both years, and the league in 96.
His style probably would not have lasted as long as lidstrom, but having him and lidstrom and Yzerman and Fedorov up front, wow.
A lot of the comments in this thread are underestimating Konstantinov by more than just a little bit.

His presence on the team went far beyond production. He was the gravitational force that brought unyielding grit out of superstar talents and ambitious initiative out of role players.

The entire story arc of the 90's Red Wings growth towards balancing skill and toughness unfolded on the foundation that Konstantinov was the base of. Selfless and relentless being the calling card of our captain, there was nobody on the team that the captain looked to more than #16.

We never got to see it unfold, but the whispers from the ground level of that era indicate that while Konstantinov was already a borderline HOF talent, his intangibles were of a generational variety, and he was on a trajectory to being remembered as one of the all-time greats, not a great #2 with a couple all-star appearances.
What do you mean?


Btw, I think that Stevens was one of the best too and the most underrated ever.
 

vladdy16

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What do you mean?

I mean he was a guy that was always talked about(maybe not by the media) as someone that the whole team looked up to and rallied behind.

I haven't found anything in a quick search, but I know behind the scenes, and I'm sure on record somewhere, you can find sincere accounts of how much Konstantinov meant as a leader that united skill players and role players, russians and canadiens. There's leading by example, and there's selflessly walking through the fire, and Konstantinov had zero ego and unrelenting toughness.

Konstantinov was instrumental in, and a borderline catalyst for, the Red Wings transition from a team that was considered too soft to a team that was considered dominant champions.

He's talked about like he was a complimentary player with an admittedly great highlight reel, but in reality the only players that rival his impact are other generational, cornerstone, hall of fame, franchise defensemen.

4825295301652242_2872bbd3f85398bc7a15a952e847e67ce9c58a518a20cbd54076336a921696a3_large
 

14ari13

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I mean he was a guy that was always talked about(maybe not by the media) as someone that the whole team looked up to and rallied behind.

I haven't found anything in a quick search, but I know behind the scenes, and I'm sure on record somewhere, you can find sincere accounts of how much Konstantinov meant as a leader that united skill players and role players, russians and canadiens. There's leading by example, and there's selflessly walking through the fire, and Konstantinov had zero ego and unrelenting toughness.

Konstantinov was instrumental in, and a borderline catalyst for, the Red Wings transition from a team that was considered too soft to a team that was considered dominant champions.

He's talked about like he was a complimentary player with an admittedly great highlight reel, but in reality the only players that rival his impact are other generational, cornerstone, hall of fame, franchise defensemen.

4825295301652242_2872bbd3f85398bc7a15a952e847e67ce9c58a518a20cbd54076336a921696a3_large

Well he was a great hitter, he had a +60 seasons, he could drop the gloves. There is nothing you can ask for more.
 

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