Komisarek or Morrisonn

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montreal

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Chimaera said:
By your logic...


db23, Kryoptix, you're both blatant homers.


Kryoptix, admitedly so.

Ron Hainsey, you're a closet homer who's sitting on the fence.


There, happy? I called them out.


So, what? 3 out of say, 5-6 Montreal Fans (assuming there are about that many who would admit to rooting for the Habs in this thread) have significantly biased points of view.


Sure, that's a small percentage, but I don't think I have to stretch it far to suggest that there is a significant number of tainted Habs fans lurking around these parts. How many of them have even seen Morrisonn play more than the 2-3 games vs Montreal is probably a good question to ask.



And on a side note, your call, whether in jest or not, for Komisarek to hurt someone elses players is down right immature and distasteful. As you are a moderator, I'm sure I could face repricussions for calling you out on that as well, but I think that's pretty childish and downright wrong. You're no fan of hockey if you want someone to be hurt. Heck, wishing injuries on other people shows a lack of humanity. As much as I hate Mario, I never want to see the guy hurt.


It's not just this thread but all over these boards. Yes I am happy to see a poster call out another poster as a homer and not label all Hab fans as one. How hard is it to take it up with the poster instead of lumping all fans in with a some posters. I don't care if 20 Hab fans posted on this board and were all posting stupid crap, it's an individual each time not a base of fans. Sorry but it annoys me to no end and has for years.

My call for injury was in jest and no I don't want to see anyone get hurt, it is childish and wrong. As you can see I'm sick of anything Hab related getting bashed, as this stems from several other posters on this board, although I shouldn't have said it, I want to get back at the all the crap I hear about Hab homers.
 

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montreal said:
Well I was referring to this comment, "The best part about it though is that you just know that if the tables were turned Komisarek was currently in Washington's organization and Morrisonn in Montreal's this theard would be completly different."

But also more in general. I just get tired of people lumping in all Hab fans when it's an individual that should be called a homer and not all Hab fans. Maybe I'm the only one that sees it, but I've noticed a lot of bashing of anything Hab. If I say Kostitsyn is good, it gets discounted cause I'm a Hab fan, if I say Komisarek is one of the better young defensemen it's typical Hab fans with Hab colour glasses. If I say Hossa has very good skills, same thing, Ribeiro is very talented, same thing.

I just don't get it, why not take each persons opinion as their own and if anyone has a problem with what the poster says, call them out on it, and not lump all fans of one team into that group, or simply discount what one person says cause they are a fan of a certain team.

Not all Habs posters are homers. Just by the number of Habs fans here, you are likely to have a couple of real homers.

The problem is that Hab posters can give the edge to Komi is areas of play like leadership. Who has been in the lockerroom to see this? How much leadership is a #6/7 d-man supposed to provide?

I also find it funny that guys can make predictions with such confidence when they likely haven't seen Morrison play more than a handful of games (at most).

I happen to think that Komi is the better prospect, but to call it a "slam dunk" in his favor at this point is very premature IMO.
 

montreal

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Enoch said:
I didn't. I posted an emoticon, which accurately gave you what your post asked for: No pity. For the record, which is worse - making a harmless generalization about a teams fans overrating their prospects/players or wishing physical harm on players in the NHL simply because their teams fans made those generalizations. Give me a break thats blatant hypocrisy! Don't whine about generalizations, then come out with such base and ridicuolous comments on the boards and expect to get a serious reply. To be blunt, you didn't deserve one.


an emoticon is still a reply and it wasn't need or neccessary. I took it as another smart ass comment and I've had enough of those as well. I guess you missed the irony in my post and that's why I said what I did. You had nothing to offer so why post some stupid emoticon, as it just makes things worse. I think the whole thing went over your head but you still felt you needed to tell me you don't have any pity for me or Hab fans, thanks for the info. For the record I wasn't looking for pity but just want posters to stop lumping fans together by team cause it's Bull Snot. And the comments about injuring someone was to give a little taste back to some posters who keep taking shots at Hab fans, although that's not the way to act but I've had it with the crap thrown at Hab fans, even though several deserve it, it's the good posters that I hate to see get lumped in, and there's a reason why many of the good Hab posters don't come to HF anymore.
 

montreal

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Beukeboom Fan said:
Not all Habs posters are homers. Just by the number of Habs fans here, you are likely to have a couple of real homers.

The problem is that Hab posters can give the edge to Komi is areas of play like leadership. Who has been in the lockerroom to see this? How much leadership is a #6/7 d-man supposed to provide?

I also find it funny that guys can make predictions with such confidence when they likely haven't seen Morrison play more than a handful of games (at most).

I happen to think that Komi is the better prospect, but to call it a "slam dunk" in his favor at this point is very premature IMO.


Every single team has homer and jerks and dumbass posters, it's not anyone one team. You find it funny that someone can make a predicition that Komisarek is better, then take it up with that poster even if there's 20 of them, but why bring down all posters of one team just because a few posters are kids or don't know what the hell they are talking about.

I have NO problem with calling someone a homer, just call that person a homer and not a group of fans based off individuals.
 

Aarex

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Chimaera said:
So, what? 3 out of say, 5-6 Montreal Fans (assuming there are about that many who would admit to rooting for the Habs in this thread) have significantly biased points of view.

How about the other 50-70 Montreal fans, who have not posted because they know their opinions would be taken as being a 'homer'
 

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Enoch said:
Go get em Tiger!

You can sarcastically ridiculy my post, and frankly, I don't care. The poster's comments that I was referring to, regardless of the fact, were uncalled for and hypocritical.


Saying I ridiculed your post is the kind of hypersensitive drama-filled attitude I was trying to point out. I really don't see what is hypocritical about his joking that he wished a player -- not even a specific one -- got injured; nor do I see how it was uncalled for, being a joke as it were.
 

Chimaera

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Rydified said:
How about the other 50-70 Montreal fans, who have not posted because they know their opinions would be taken as being a 'homer'


Let them post, if they at least want to give a balanced opinion. Not just the same this guy is amazing drivel.

And to those other 50-70 Habs fans, if they're going to give an educated account, then fine. Do it. But it's better to remain silent and be thought an idiot, then to speak and remove all doubt.
 
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Aarex

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Chimaera said:
Let them post, if they at least want to give a balanced opinion. Not just the same this guy is amazing drivel.

And to those other 50-70 Habs fans, if they're going to give an educated account, then fine. Do it. But it's better to remain silent and be thought an idea, then to speak and remove all doubt.


The reason I posted that was to rebuttle your talk of 'tainted' hab fans. I'm with Dan here, i'm sick of the general flag that habs fans hanging over their heads because of afew bad apples.

Of all the hockey talk boards i've visited this one has the most level headed posters of them all with afew bad seeds.

Labels are bad.
 

Enoch

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Nash13 said:
So you saw him around mid season 2 or 3 times. At a time when he had about, say 40 games total NHL experience split over the past two years. Using that to base a thought on a guys future is nothing short of ridiculous.

Now, I agree he wasn't great or, good mind you, early in the season. He was actually very sporatic (sp?) but in between some tough games, he played some exceptional ones. I think too many people get caught up and remember the Toronto game were he made one glaring error on National TV.

If you have any interest in Komisarek, or maybe you don't and just want to keep basing your argument on 2-3 games from mid season, I suggest checking on his playoff performance which will give you why people are hyped about him. The progression is staggering. He was playing like a veteran. In control, protecting the goalie, playing with poise. That is the Komisarek people have seen which is a much better indicator than 2-3 midseason games.

Now as for hype. Again I agree, the likelihood he will achieve it is unlikely but its a pretty mood point. This is HF so its all relative. 99% of all prospects probably won't achieve anything close to what their hype has brought here.

Oh, I agree, which is why I gave you the disclaimers throughout my post. I can only judge Komisarek on what I did see, however, and from that I was less than impressed. Like I said in my initial post, though, he certainly has all the tools to be something special in this league...I just have my doubts he will be as great as the hype has him pegged for.

montreal said:
And the comments about injuring someone was to give a little taste back to some posters who keep taking shots at Hab fans, although that's not the way to act but I've had it with the crap thrown at Hab fans, even though several deserve it, it's the good posters that I hate to see get lumped in, and there's a reason why many of the good Hab posters don't come to HF anymore.

Ah, see this is why I claimed you were being hypocritical. Your angry at people making generalizations and using them to strike out at hab fans, so you make a childish remark about your player "hopefully" injuring their star player to strike back at them. That IS childish, and regardless how you feel about my response via emoticon, you have certainly admitted that maybe you didn't handle it in the correct way. I'll be honest - I've never had a problem with Hab fans or you individually. In fact, I have enjoyed many of your points throughout my time here and even on this thread in particular, especially about fighting generalizations....b/c frankly they suck :). Still, when you post a lame comment like that, expect for somone to call you on it. You took the wrong path to fight generalizations, in jest or not, and when you post such things it makes people like me, who usually support you, feel absolutely zero pity for you/your fanbase.

Anyways, I'll drop this as its really not worth pursuing for either of us. You made a joke (albiet tasteless to some people), and I may have overreacted. In an effort to keep this thread on target, I'll leave this area of discussion alone unless you want to carry it out on pms or directly ask me a question about what I have said in this thread.

Rob Paxon said:
Saying I ridiculed your post is the kind of hypersensitive drama-filled attitude I was trying to point out. I really don't see what is hypocritical about his joking that he wished a player -- not even a specific one -- got injured; nor do I see how it was uncalled for, being a joke as it were.

Fair enough - your entitled to your opinions on what is called for/not called for. I disagree with you, obviously, but my argument wasn't with you at any point, rather it was with Montreal's initial comment. If you feel it is okay to make jokes like that, fine. For me, I feel it is a grossly improper way at dealing with frustrations. As for the hypocrisy comment, I explained it in the quote above ^.

Rydified said:
Labels are bad.

They certainly can be, and believe me, I totally understand the situation you are in. You may not be able to completely shed the generalizations thrust at you, but just keep posting in a rational manner and eventually people will learn to respect your opinions. I know their are several wonderful posters here that are Hab fans, and even though it is inevitable that people will use the excuse that "your a homer" against you, use of knowledge and observations to back up your claims can only further yourself in the eyes of the impartial observers on these boards, who aren't so negatively biased against Hab fans.
 
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montreal

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Chimaera said:
Let them post, if they at least want to give a balanced opinion. Not just the same this guy is amazing drivel.

And to those other 50-70 Habs fans, if they're going to give an educated account, then fine. Do it. But it's better to remain silent and be thought an idea, then to speak and remove all doubt.


Your missing the whole point, even if they post an educated account, they still get bashed and labeled homer in many cases.
 

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montreal said:
Your missing the whole point, even if they post an educated account, they still get bashed and labeled homer in many cases.

I think that there are some great Montreal posters. I would agree that they are unfortunately grouped in with some less than knowledgable (or total homer) posters.

What makes it difficult though is that posters saying that Komi could be a top 2 or 3 defenseman in the entire league. Or praising his leadership abilities. Or, without any justification, state that he is head & shoulders over Shaone Morrison, a player that they probably saw 3 time or less.

It's like me trying to compare Ruutu to Frolov. I'm a Hawks fan, and I saw Ruutu player probably 50-60 games last year. I might have seen Frolov play 5 times. It's even tougher when you are comparing guys that played minor roles on their team, and they really only played a half the season on top of it. That's why I think these comparison's so often denigrate into stupid insult hurling contests.
 

db23

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What is so terrible about being a "homer"? You guys make it sound like it is some sort of horrible disease or something. A hockey fan who has no particular attatchment to any one team is an odd duck to say the least. I am a Montreral fan and think that Komisarek will be a dominant defenseman for the Canadians and the U.S. National team, but I think that I back up my projections better than most. On the Montreal board I get slagged endlessly for criticizing some of their other prospects. I happen to think that Komsiarek is underrated in terms of his potential, just as I think that Kostitsyn is overrrated in terms of his potential. Morrission, and I've seen him play several times in the WHL, never impressed me that much. I was surprised he went in the first round. He was a forward converted to defense, and most of the time that is exactly what he looks like out there.
 

IAMCANADIAN

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OK, now that I've started a feud with a simple comparison question....

...here's another :lol

I have Klesla, Colaiacovo & Barker on my fantasy KEEPER team.


Would you drop any of them to take Komo or Morrisonn?

Thanks :banana:
 

db23

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IAMCANADIAN said:
OK, now that I've started a feud with a simple comparison question....

...here's another :lol

I have Klesla, Colaiacovo & Barker on my fantasy KEEPER team.


Would you drop any of them to take Komo or Morrisonn?

Thanks :banana:
1. Komisarek (points and overall)
2. Klesla "
3. Barker
4. Morrisson
5. Colaiacovo
 

Mizral

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AJ1982 said:
I am sure you will survive this terrible offense.

Komisarek is the superior prospect, it's that simple. Everybody knows the reasons already. To summarize: he's a big guy, he skates well, he seems to have found a knack for the offensive game and he is naturally inclined to be strong defensively. That said, Morrisson has a fairly similar frame to Komisarek and he is no slouch in the offensive game and he is a year younger than big Mike. At the same time I don't think he's done too much to prove he has more offensive potential than Komisarek, he did only average about .6 ppg in the WHL during his final season there and Komisarek does have the more impressive AHL performance thus far. I also believe that Morrisson is not as solid defensively as Komisarek, despite Komisarek's mental mistakes. So in my analysis I see a fairly sizeable gap between Komisarek and Morrisson and we haven't even gotten to the part about how much potential Komisarek still has (because is a BIG defenseman out of college, which big guys can take longer as can defenseman and also college players too, not to mention the fact Komisarek started playing hockey at a late age). So it's not really a shot at Morrisson so much as a recognition of the fact that Komisarek is something of a special prospect. And yes, I do think he is right up there with other great prospects like Hamhuis and Klesla because of his raw potential, not because of where he is right now in his development.

To start this post off, I don't want folks to think I'm anti-Montreal Canadiens. If you read many of my posts, I always support the Habs, and am a big fan of several of their young prospects & players (Alexander Perezhogin, Kyle Chipchura, and Andrei Markov come to mind).

However, I personally would rather have Shaonne Morrisonn over Mike Komisarek.

Crazy? Perhaps, but it has more to do with the fact that I don't think much of Komisarek than Morrisonn being something special.

Morrisonn has the skill to be considered a potential second pairing guy, more like a #3-sort of defenseman. A very respectable two-way game with good decision making and overall puck skills. I won't harp on this too much.

In regards to Komisarek, I said once on the Habs board that I felt Komisarek reminded me a lot of a quicker, but less physical version of Luke Richardson, and I hold by that comparison. Komisarek has yet to show any level of offensive skill in the pros, and I'm quite certain he isn't going to start showing it anytime soon. But then why did he show so much offensive gumption in the NCAA compared to the NHL? In Komisarek's case, while he started playing hockey late, I feel he simply peaked early. If you check out how he shoots, he's got a real slow windup, but a heck of a shot. This is indicitive of many unsuccessful offensive players in the pros who did well in the NCAA or the CHL.

His decision making, to put is nicely, is terrible. The kid just can't seem to learn from his mistakes. Many other young players that have gone similar routes have much smarter games out there, and this is something that I just can't see him shaking. It has something to do with his coordination, which doesn't seem natural.

What Komisarek does have is size, and that'll be enough to make him a bottom pairing defenseman in the NHL for years. However, his poor decision-making, lack of offensive upside, and slow learning curve will keep him from being a top 3 defenseman. He might eek his way into the #4 role on the Habs in a couple years, but it will be more due to the fact that the Habs don't have a particularly deep group back there.
 

Rand

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I've only seen Morrisonn a few times so i won't judge him, but I've never made any secret of my opinion that Komisarek is massively over-rated.

He's big, strong and more then willing to play physical. He skates well and has a very strong shot.
For all of that his on-ice vision has never impressed me, and his mental game is years behind his physical abilities. He's forever getting caught out of position trying to go for the big hit. His positioning is mediocre at best and he seems to rely way too much on his speed to make the play.
He never really seemed to learn from his mistakes either, he'd make the same boneheaded play defensively multiple times per game.

I didn't see him a lot down the stretch when he supposedly played much better but I did see him a good 15-20 games towards mid season and shortly thereafter and frankly his offensive game was completely missing, and his defensive game was plain bad. He didn't even deserve to be in the NHL for most of last season IMHO.
Komisarek's got the physical gifts to be something special but I have serious doubts that he'll ever become anything more then a solid #4 D-Man.


Meanwhile, with all the hype Komisarek gets and Souray's breakout season their best D-Man Andrei Markov gets very little attention.
Markov is already a very good #3 D-Man and still improving. He should become a fine two-way top pairing guy in short time.
 

PSUhockey34

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db23 said:
I've seen him play several times in the WHL, never impressed me that much. I was surprised he went in the first round. He was a forward converted to defense, and most of the time that is exactly what he looks like out there.

Guess you missed how well he was playing for the Bruins before being traded to the Caps
 

Chimaera

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montreal said:
Your missing the whole point, even if they post an educated account, they still get bashed and labeled homer in many cases.


I'm not missing the boat at all.


I'm right on it. I called people out. I did what you said.


Heck, I called them out in the thread in regards to certain peoples post.


I didn't say, yes, all Habs fans are bad and make baseless conclusions. I tried to at least be objective and point out that some are. What's wrong with that. Get off your high horse. There are fans like that in the Habs ranks, even on this board. We shouldn't have to defend our position that some people's opinion of Komisarek is down right nuts and biased, just as you dont' have to try and carry the banner of "educated" Habs posters.
 

Beukeboom Fan

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db23 said:
What is so terrible about being a "homer"? You guys make it sound like it is some sort of horrible disease or something. A hockey fan who has no particular attatchment to any one team is an odd duck to say the least. I am a Montreral fan and think that Komisarek will be a dominant defenseman for the Canadians and the U.S. National team, but I think that I back up my projections better than most. On the Montreal board I get slagged endlessly for criticizing some of their other prospects. I happen to think that Komsiarek is underrated in terms of his potential, just as I think that Kostitsyn is overrrated in terms of his potential. Morrission, and I've seen him play several times in the WHL, never impressed me that much. I was surprised he went in the first round. He was a forward converted to defense, and most of the time that is exactly what he looks like out there.

There's nothing wrong with being a homer - to a certain extent. However, when people are trying to have an intellegent informed debate about a player or prospect, it's pretty much impossible if someone is a total homer. How can you have a debate if one side has an entire different view on "reality".

IMO, it is alright to be optimistic about a certain player or prospect, if you've seen something that you can quantify. The problem is if you come out and say that Komi will be one of the top 3 defenseman in the league, and you're basing that on his size & skating. There have been a TON of players that "Look like Tarzan, play like Jane". Guys like Pyatt & Alexeev have all the physical tools, but haven't yet put it together.

Komi is definetely a physical speciman, and is very mobile for his size. He can definetely turn into anywhere from JT's evaluation (more mobile Luke Richardson - which isn't necessarily a bad thing) to Krypotix's eval (bonified #1 d-man). However Komi hasn't shown more than above average offensive ability since leaving CCHA. I'm not saying that he's can't develop, I do think though that odds of that happening are less than several optimistic Habs fans have posted.
 

Uber Coca

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Chimaera said:
Ron Hainsey, you're a closet homer who's sitting on the fence.
.

You see, that's what montreal was pointing out, each time we're talking about a Hab prospect or current NHL player, we automatically are biased. That's kind of idiot, because anybody who knows hockey will see that there's a big potential difference between Komisarek and Morrisonn. Some posters here have some problems understanding that Komisarek is good offensively (Yes he is!). So anyway, what's your point? You are THAT frustrated of the big ammount of Habs fan on this board? Get a life...

A closet Habs fan? No, just a Habs fan... I never said the opposite.
 

Marshall

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Ron Hainsey said:
You see, that's what montreal was pointing out, each time we're talking about a Hab prospect or current NHL player, we automatically are biased. That's kind of idiot, because anybody who knows hockey will see that there's a big potential difference between Komisarek and Morrisonn. Some posters here have some problems understanding that Komisarek is good offensively (Yes he is!). So anyway, what's your point? You are THAT frustrated of the big ammount of Habs fan on this board? Get a life...

A closet Habs fan? No, just a Habs fan... I never said the opposite.


Ah, everyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot. Cleary the reputation of a select few fans is well-earned. This is a perfect case in point.

(I must emphasize a *few* posters. Most, in my experience, are knowledgeable and fair)
 

db23

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[......... Komisarek has yet to show any level of offensive skill in the pros, ....

That is not true. Komisarek was the top scoring rookie defenceman in the AHL as a 20 year old. He was also one of the top scoring defencemen in the league before he was called up 2/3 of the way through the season. He was socirng at twice the rate of Dan Hamhuis who was the other high profile 20 year old rook in the league at the time. Mike also outscored his defence partner Marc Andre Bergeron by quite a wide margin before he was called up to the Habs. Bergeron is a couple years older and had previous AHL experience as well. Both Bergeron and Hamhuis are regarded as skilled "offensive" defencemen. In the same league, against the same competition, at the same time, Komisarek was significantly more productive.
 

db23

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BMWM3owner said:
Guess you missed how well he was playing for the Bruins before being traded to the Caps
If they thought he was going to be something special, they obviously wouldn't have traded him at the age of 21.
 

Kasparov*

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Whats funny is some people are saying some hab fans are such homers yet noone has actually voted for Morrisonn over Komisarek... :help:
 
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