GDT: Knights @ Canes, Rage!

[GoldiFox]

Yes THGM, I meant 2018/19 season.

Ok...so you're plan is to retain Ward. What contract do you offer him?

Keep in mind he has outperformed the guy you just gave a 4.15X4 contract....and in your own words, Ward is a middle-of-the-road starter.

What is the market value for antiquated pumpkin Cam Ward? Do you try to re-sign now or wait to FA?

Outperforming a bad goalie doesn't make another low-end goalie worth more than the first bad goalie. Ward isn't worth more than any other backup. ~$1-2 million.

Darling is closer to a permanent AHL demotion than a starting role. He was the best Free Agent option available and he has been a huge disappointment. It is what it is, gotta break a few eggs if you want to make an omelette. With a new Billionaire owner this won't be the last bad contract the Canes sign. Comes with the territory.

Not sure if there is a positive outcome here. I'd love to see Darling become competent at stopping pucks from entering the Canes net... but I have yet to see any indication that this will happen on a consistent basis.

 

[Stickpucker]

I would swing a big trade with Buffalo for ROR ...if they'd move him and Lehner. Lehner has been okay for some pretty bad Buffalo teams and is still youngish.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yes THGM, I meant 2018/19 season.

Ok...so your plan is to retain Ward. What contract do you offer him?

Keep in mind he has outperformed the guy you just gave a 4.15X4 contract....and in your own words, Ward is a middle-of-the-road starter.

What is the market value for antiquated pumpkin Cam Ward? Do you try to re-sign now or wait to FA?

It's a weird situation and I would imagine that Ward's contract with the Carolina Hurricanes does not resemble the one he gets on the UFA market.

Personally I think he's a unique asset to the franchise at this point, a de facto franchise goalie who was prepared to be a backup/mentor but has now stepped into the #1 role yet again to bail us out of a failed experiment. Not often do you have a Plan B that's quite so franchise-friendly. To me it would make a lot of sense on both sides of the table if he were signed to a relatively long deal at a relatively low number (say 4 years, $3 million). I don't mind having him ride the pine as a dusty old backup for $3 million, 4 years from now. Not given the added-value he brings as a leader and a mentor to whoever is in the crease at that point. If he wanted to cash in with "starter money" it would be a harder conversation. At that point I think you let him taste the FA market for his services and go from there.

 

[Lucky Lindy]

I can say that Canes win 75% of the games I attend to, so Mr.Dundon, if you can fix me a house and a STH for next season, I think we'll make the playoffs.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's a weird situation and I would imagine that Ward's contract with the Carolina Hurricanes does not resemble the one he gets on the UFA market.

Personally I think he's a unique asset to the franchise at this point, a de facto franchise goalie who was prepared to be a backup/mentor but has now stepped into the #1 role yet again to bail us out of a failed experiment. Not often do you have a Plan B that's quite so franchise-friendly. To me it would make a lot of sense on both sides of the table if he were signed to a relatively long deal at a relatively low number (say 4 years, $3 million). I don't mind having him ride the pine as a dusty old backup for $3 million, 4 years from now. Not given the added-value he brings as a leader and a mentor to whoever is in the crease at that point. If he wanted to cash in with "starter money" it would be a harder conversation. At that point I think you let him taste the FA market for his services and go from there.

BTW, in all of this remember that we are already on the hook for Semin's buyout for the next 4 years. If we buy out Darling as well, that's another contract's worth of dead space that we carry going forward. I don't see us getting to 2022 with 3-4 bought out contracts on the books, so there's a fair amount of pressure to not screw-up on this next decision.

 

[Ole Gil]

Outperforming a bad goalie doesn't make another low-end goalie worth more than the first bad goalie. Ward isn't worth more than any other backup. ~$1-2 million.

If he's not worth more than any other backup, then go pay any other backup 1-2 million to be the starter, and see how it pans out.

 

[MinJaBen]

I don't see us getting to 2022 with 3-4 bought out contracts on the books, so there's a fair amount of pressure to not screw-up on this next decision.

Well, it certainly won't be 4 bought out contracts...that is not ok according to the CBA. Three is the maximum, so all those hoping for a Darling and Rask buyout (raising a hand myself) will likely be disappointed.

 

[Lempo]

I think you're overreacting. This isn't Toronto. The tweets of a relative of a backup goaltender aren't going to be front page news, assuming our two reporters even decide to go hunting for them.

So unless Darling points them out to his teammates (which would be a whole 'nother issue), I doubt his teammates will find out.

"My sister says you guys oughta score more" is probably the ill-advisest thing one could say in a locker room.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Outperforming a bad goalie doesn't make another low-end goalie worth more than the first bad goalie. Ward isn't worth more than any other backup. ~$1-2 million.

The going rate for veteran backup looks like $2.5 million on average. Unless you think Ward is a lot worse than Chad Johnson, Anders Nillson, Michael Condon, Michael Neuvirth, etc. Steve Mason got $4.1 mil and he’s f***ing terrible.

 

[GoldiFox]

If he's not worth more than any other backup, then go pay any other backup 1-2 million to be the starter, and see how it pans out.

I'd rather pay a random backup $1 million and pray for a Darling miracle (or that Ned/Booth/etc. rise up) than give Ward a $4-5 million contract. Having Ward/Darling making ~$8-10 million long-term to hold down the crease would be a disaster.

 

[Joe McGrath]

I'd rather pay a random backup $1 million and pray for a Darling miracle (or that Ned/Booth/etc. rise up) than give Ward a $4-5 million contract. Having Ward/Darling making ~$8-10 million long-term to hold down the crease would be a disaster.

Ward isn’t getting $5 million or more than 1-2 years based on just being not awful.

 

[GoldiFox]

Ward isn’t getting $5 million or more than 1-2 years based on just being not awful.

I was responding to the idea that Cam would get a higher contract than just did Darling because he has played better this year. I agree, he's worth closer to $2 million than $5 million.

Steve Mason did just make $4.1 million so who knows. I know I don't want to be the one paying anything significant.

 

[bluedevil58]

Hello,

My name is RF. We need to be patient. We really like our team. I assure you if a deal was out there to be made for a scoring 1 C I would have done it. The fact is every other team is wanting a scoring 1 C as well. They don't come around very often. When you have one, you hold onto them. Just like with what we did with Eric Staal. Rest assured Canes fans, be patient, My conservative approach will pay dividends. We are building for the future. I plan to be aggressive this off season and bring in a high end forward by offering them a big contract just like how I have been aggressive in attempting to trade for high end talent with our plethora of talent dmen. My name is Ron Francis.

 

[The Stranger]

Yeah I mean that’s goalie family attitude 101. As long as he understands that he’s at least part of the problem it makes no difference.

This is right. Remember when pappa Lack served a virtual sloppy joe to the Canes defense?

 

[The Stranger]

It's a weird situation and I would imagine that Ward's contract with the Carolina Hurricanes does not resemble the one he gets on the UFA market.

Personally I think he's a unique asset to the franchise at this point, a de facto franchise goalie who was prepared to be a backup/mentor but has now stepped into the #1 role yet again to bail us out of a failed experiment. Not often do you have a Plan B that's quite so franchise-friendly. To me it would make a lot of sense on both sides of the table if he were signed to a relatively long deal at a relatively low number (say 4 years, $3 million). I don't mind having him ride the pine as a dusty old backup for $3 million, 4 years from now. Not given the added-value he brings as a leader and a mentor to whoever is in the crease at that point. If he wanted to cash in with "starter money" it would be a harder conversation. At that point I think you let him taste the FA market for his services and go from there.

Offering Ward $3M AAV is a non-insulting starting point...it's less than he makes this year...it's less than market value...but that term may be a juicy enough worm to get him to bite.

RF needs some stability in net for next season...Cam is a UFA...will be interesting to see how he handles this.

 

[Lempo]

Jets brought Mason in for starter duties, but he didn't impress while Hellebuyck lit up all of the sudden. Jets were in bad place in last season with three guys of whom no one was a solution.

 

[Breakdowns]

If there are no options this off-season I would give Ward 2 year 2,5 million contract and go back with Ward as starter(56 games) and Darling as backup vs weaker teams(26 games). Ward is decent goalie who can play our system and will win some games for us. As people have told before. If he is not overworked he can be okey goalie, and with that game management he would be okey IMO.

 

[bluedevil58]

What really makes me upset is that both Fleury and Bishop were there this off season for the taking. Instead we pass in proven starters and go with an unproven starter. That play really came back to bite us. I don't think this off season has the caliber of goalies available like they were this past off season. Not trying to dwell on the past. But this off season was a massive failure on the goal tending front for RF.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

What makes you think Fleury would waive to come here or that Bishop would want to sign here? Just because it fits you fantasy?

 

[bluedevil58]

What makes you think Fleury would waive to come here or that Bishop would want to sign here? Just because it fits you fantasy?

What makes you think they wouldn't?

 

[cptjeff]

What really makes me upset is that both Fleury and Bishop were there this off season for the taking. Instead we pass in proven starters and go with an unproven starter. That play really came back to bite us. I don't think this off season has the caliber of goalies available like they were this past off season. Not trying to dwell on the past. But this off season was a massive failure on the goal tending front for RF.

Fleury was not available to anyone but Vegas. Yes, there was lots of speculation, but it was made clear after the process was over that MAF was not willing to waive for anything but the expansion draft to the Knights, so you can't be upset with Francis for not getting him. Bishop was ungodly expensive and there was no guarantee we would get him anyway. Getting Darling was, on paper, an excellent move. Giving him that contract without a single game played was a gamble, and it turns out to have been a very bad one. If he had played well, it would have been a bargain, and if he didn't, serviceable backup. The idea that he would be this bad was simply inconceivable to everyone. There was absolutely nothing to suggest that he could possibly have been this bad.

Hindsight is 20/20. With the information he had at the time, Francis made the right move. We got the outlier outcome here, way off the bell curve of expected results. That's gonna happen in any realm of life, the question is now what Francis is gonna do to fix it.

IMO, a stint in the AHL with a very long leash to regain form is probably what's best for Darling right now. If we can get his head right again, he can still be a very good goalie for us. It's not going to happen if he's getting shelled in the NHL, so put him against AHL shooters for a while until he remembers what made him good.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

What makes you think they wouldn't?

Common sense. And what cptjeff said.

 

[geehaad]

What makes you think they wouldn't?

Because, unlike you, we were paying attention.

 

[bluedevil58]

I will fully admit that I never watched Darling play for the Hawks. Not even once. I took everyone's word for him being good and figured you guys watched him so I guess he would be good. Hell, we all though he would be good. I just don't understand how one can suck so much and do a complete 180. It's almost just as bad as when Lack got here but even worse.

 

[MinJaBen]

I will fully admit that I never watched Darling play for the Hawks. Not even once. I took everyone's word for him being good and figured you guys watched him so I guess he would be good. Hell, we all though he would be good. I just don't understand how one can suck so much and do a complete 180. It's almost just as bad as when Lack got here but even worse.

I thought he would be good as well. I looked at the numbers of a number of guys that "might" have been available last year due to the expansion draft and cap issues (Darling, Grubauer, Dell, Fleury, Bishop, etc.) and my top three based on those things were Darling, Grubauer and Dell because of the their potential availability and high danger save percentages (I think Peters' system gives up more of these than the average). Dell had the best numbers, but the smallest sample size. Also, he was probably not as available (given how GMGM's negotiations killed the market). All things considered, I thought what Francis paid for him in trade and then in contract was fair. Hindsight being 20/20, it seems that Peters' system of aggressively having the defense pinch to keep the zone and the way he likes to have the defense pass quickly to the open forward (even if in the slot) has led to more HD shots and Darling has not adapted well. In fact, he seems to have had a catastrophic collapse of confidence from the struggles. Some of that is on Peters for failing to protect him from some of the shelling at earlier parts of the season, some of that is on Darling.

All in all, I think the failure is more in the hands of coaching and management than it is in Darling, though I don't absolve him of some responsibility. When you don't adequately scout guys for your system, or you don't adjust your system to the players you have, then it shouldn't be surprising when the square peg shatters as you repeatedly pound it in the round (five-) hole.