KHL Trades, Rumors and Free Agent Talk Part 5

[Jussi]

You are ironically confirming what vorky says: junior hockey, no NHL around, Finland is the top of the world.
Senior hockey, NHL around, and where is the Liiga? Good league, I won't argue with that, but is it top of the world?

It's never going to be top of the world and doesnt' even want to be. All it has to be is a good league. We don't have such delusion of grandeour.

 

[Jussi]

You are a guy I described ... your understanding of success is to export as much prospects as possible to the NHL and as cheap as possible. You absolutely do not care about sustainable development of European leagues/clubs. The sad part of story is that European hockey officials share this opinion.

Wrong. The success of Finnish hockey program is defined by the number of NHL players drafted and playing in the NHL. Those are the words pretty much every person in the Finnish hockey community says, whether it's former players, coaches or the journalists. The transfer money is an issue where you fail to see the reality: Europeans have no bargaining chips in increasing it since the players control the market and there are either laws in place that prohibit or restrict worker movement or the leagues dont' want create a hockey version of Bosman. The Finnish league PA is so well lawyered up that Finnish league doesnt' want to create any trouble with them. Even though I've said the transfer money could be bigger when it comes to first round picks at least, the money is still sufficient enough for European clubs because you mistakenly believe that the costs of player development are all on the clubs where as in Finland and Sweden, the biggest producers of NHL draftees currently, it's almost entirely/mostly on the players parents. The transfer money outweighs the clubs investments, thus becoming sustainable. Your hyperbolic statements of "killing European hockey" or unsustainability are simply not backed up by facts.

 

[Jussi]

I agree with you about salary cap.

I just do not agree with the ban for money transfers. And I agree that the league should set a limit how much money a club can spend on transfers per off-season.

It is sad that league´s executives in Sweden/Finland are so proud that the NHL takes their best prospects for almost free. It is one thing to develop a prospect and another to be fairly compensated for him.

Again, the clubs do not pay for the development of a player until the latter part/the end. In Sweden if a kid makes it to a "hockey highschool" that's from 15-16 years upeards, in Finland it's only at A-juniors (17-20 age groups) whe the club pays the players for equipment, icetime and a very small salary. Finnish hockey federation recently said that on average they spend 100K euro to help develop an NHL player and they don't get involved until the 15 year olds hit the Pohjola Camp. They don't get any of the transfer money and have never wanted a piece of it either.

 

[DivochLubo]

Suppose people mean quality of young players development in Finland and Sweden. NHL is best league and if you have solid number of players is kind of mirror of quality of youth programs. Think biggest problems in developing players are coaches on first steps, to give them enough skills basics and then giving young players quality league and line mates to get experiences. I think salary cap can give more ice time for young players on KHL. I am quite sure there are more of them who would not fail even on KHL level.

 

[vorky]

Wrong. The success of Finnish hockey program is defined by the number of NHL players drafted and playing in the NHL. Those are the words pretty much every person in the Finnish hockey community says, whether it's former players, coaches or the journalists. The transfer money is an issue where you fail to see the reality: Europeans have no bargaining chips in increasing it since the players control the market and there are either laws in place that prohibit or restrict worker movement or the leagues dont' want create a hockey version of Bosman. The Finnish league PA is so well lawyered up that Finnish league doesnt' want to create any trouble with them. Even though I've said the transfer money could be bigger when it comes to first round picks at least, the money is still sufficient enough for European clubs because you mistakenly believe that the costs of player development are all on the clubs where as in Finland and Sweden, the biggest producers of NHL draftees currently, it's almost entirely/mostly on the players parents. The transfer money outweighs the clubs investments, thus becoming sustainable. Your hyperbolic statements of "killing European hockey" or unsustainability are simply not backed up by facts.

Thank you for proving my point. Great job!

What you described is an implementation of American sport culture to European hockey. As you said, Finns accepted it.

Please, do not start with Bosman again. You failed last time.

I will be honest. I do not know if you are not able to understand what I have said many times. Or you do not want to understand it. I will repeat it for you one more time. There are two things, development fee and transfer fee. The NHL is clever enough, and Euros stupid enough, to merge them. If you want to know details, feel free to read my previous posts or make own research. I know how you love court decisions, I recommend you to find out how European courts definy transfer fee.

Again, the clubs do not pay for the development of a player until the latter part/the end. In Sweden if a kid makes it to a "hockey highschool" that's from 15-16 years upeards, in Finland it's only at A-juniors (17-20 age groups) whe the club pays the players for equipment, icetime and a very small salary. Finnish hockey federation recently said that on average they spend 100K euro to help develop an NHL player and they don't get involved until the 15 year olds hit the Pohjola Camp. They don't get any of the transfer money and have never wanted a piece of it either.

Cool. Nothing new.

 

[Jussi]

What you described is an implementation of American sport culture to European hockey. As you said, Finns accepted it.

Please, do not start with Bosman again. You failed last time.

Define "American sports culture". If you're referring to the Finnish league PA, it was established in 1973, before the creation of SM-Liiga:
This is SJRY / FHPA - SJRY

You're the one who failed to understand that though the Bosman case was more about football and references more towards it, there are both similarities and there are also major differences between ice hockey and football on top level. Clubs are hesitant to challenge the status quo of hockey transfers because the end result could turn out worse for them and even better for players.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

It's never going to be top of the world and doesnt' even want to be.

So what's the point then?
I don't get this mentallity

 

[Jussi]

So what's the point then?
I don't get this mentallity

It's a league for Finnish teams, mission being to decide the Finnish champion in ice hockey. Just like the SHL is meant to decide the Swedish champion. Neither league has no delusional aspirations.

If your mentality is that every team sports league in every country should want to be the best league in the world, then that is truly mindbogglingly ludicrous.

 

[vorky]

Define "American sports culture". If you're referring to the Finnish league PA, it was established in 1973, before the creation of SM-Liiga:
This is SJRY / FHPA - SJRY

You're the one who failed to understand that though the Bosman case was more about football and references more towards it, there are both similarities and there are also major differences between ice hockey and football on top level. Clubs are hesitant to challenge the status quo of hockey transfers because the end result could turn out worse for them and even better for players.

I defined it.

Do you still believe the Bosman is applicable to a case of a transfer of European player from European club to the NHL? By European I mean the EU.

I know it is more comfortable to do nothing than to do anything. Who would not accept a free NHL ticket for doing nothing? Got it!

 

[vorky]

It's a league for Finnish teams, mission being to decide the Finnish champion in ice hockey. Just like the SHL is meant to decide the Swedish champion. Neither league has no delusional aspirations.

If your mentality is that every team sports league in every country should want to be the best league in the world, then that is truly mindbogglingly ludicrous.

I hope @Alessandro Seren Rosso will reply you. I will try to compare the mentality.

Football leagues in Portugal, Belgium or Netherlands as example do not want to be the best football leagues in the world either. This mentality does not prevent them from selling players for fair compensation.

The Liiga and the SHL has no delusional aspirations as you say or using other words, both leagues do not want to be the best leagues in the world. This mentality PREVENT them from selling players for fair compensation.

I guess, your mentality is described in second paragraph.

 

[Jussi]

I hope @Alessandro Seren Rosso will reply you. I will try to compare the mentality.

Football leagues in Portugal, Belgium or Netherlands as example do not want to be the best football leagues in the world either. This mentality does not prevent them from selling players for fair compensation.

The Liiga and the SHL has no delusional aspirations as you say or using other words, both leagues do not want to be the best leagues in the world. This mentality PREVENT them from selling players for fair compensation.

I guess, your mentality is described in second paragraph.

It's got nothing to do with mentality. It's simply accepting the reality. Since you think something can be done about the situiation, please list such measures.

 

[vorky]

It's got nothing to do with mentality. It's simply accepting the reality. Since you think something can be done about the situiation, please list such measures.

I said in the past what can be done. You can read it in my posts.

 

[Jussi]

I said in the past what can be done. You can read it in my posts.

If your idea is still that not having a transfer agreement is the best plan the you don't have anything realistic.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

If your mentality is that every team sports league in every country should want to be the best league in the world, then that is truly mindbogglingly ludicrous.

What is the point to play sports, then, if not to be the best?

 

[SoundAndFury]

What is the point to play sports, then, if not to be the best?

It's like asking what's the point of having an independent country if you don't intend to conquer the world eventually. That's very silly way of looking at it.

 

[Jussi]

What is the point to play sports, then, if not to be the best?

You do undestand the purpose of a domestic league? Does the Russian baskeball league aim to be the best in the world? Or the Spanish one? No, because that's not their purpose. They're domestic leagues, meant to decide the domestic champion.

 

[vorky]

If your idea is still that not having a transfer agreement is the best plan the you don't have anything realistic.

The idea is to have fair transfer rules in the world.

 

[vorky]

You do undestand the purpose of a domestic league? Does the Russian baskeball league aim to be the best in the world? Or the Spanish one? No, because that's not their purpose. They're domestic leagues, meant to decide the domestic champion.

And they still have fair transfer rules, because they CARE about THEIR leagues! And yes, the NBA is much bigger "deal" than the NHL in sport industry.

Of course, you can go on with other (failed) examples.

 

[SoundAndFury]

The idea is to have fair transfer rules in the world.

How is it fair to the player if his chances to move are hindered by the fact that the team he wants to play on has to pay a load of money for him? Whom is it fair to?

 

[Jussi]

And they still have fair transfer rules, because they CARE about THEIR leagues! And yes, the NBA is much bigger "deal" than the NHL in sport industry.

Of course, you can go on with other (failed) examples.

Again, different market in basketball as well, since there's more than one quality league in Europe. But the money isn't even comparable to European football because it's a smaller sport.

You're the one who still keeps failing if your best plan to increase the NHL transfer money is the equivalent of holding your breath until they cave in.

 

[Jussi]

How is it fair to the player if his chances to move are hindered by the fact that the team he wants to play on has to pay a load of money for him? Whom is it fair to?

It seems some people still like to treat players as some type of property. On the never ending topic of Russian kids going to Canadian junior leagues, some people (surprisingly non-Russian Russophiles) think they're Russia's property and thus should not be allowed to make their own choices (no matter how succesfull it is in the ened). Such concept is completely alien to us "Westerners".

 

[vorky]

How is it fair to the player if his chances to move are hindered by the fact that the team he wants to play on has to pay a load of money for him? Whom is it fair to?

How is it fair to the club if club´s chances to get a transfer fee is equal to zero? Whom is it fair to?

What you said is an opinion of people who care only about players, they do not care at all about hockey development in the world.

 

[vorky]

It seems some people still like to treat players as some type of property. On the never ending topic of Russian kids going to Canadian junior leagues, some people (surprisingly non-Russian Russophiles) think they're Russia's property and thus should not be allowed to make their own choices (no matter how succesfull it is in the ened). Such concept is completely alien to us "Westerners".

Do your own research on European courts decisions in sport field and transfer rules in other sports. Just a note, all these entities are run by us "Westerners". Last but not least, what about the NHL? If you do not know, the NHL is based in the US, a Western country.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

It's like asking what's the point of having an independent country if you don't intend to conquer the world eventually. That's very silly way of looking at it.

What the hell are you saying? To conquer the world you have to make wars, having an independent country doesn't mean starting wars left and right.
Players play sport to be better than their peers, teams assemble the best players to be better than other teams, and leagues fight so that the best teams would have the better players to be better than other leagues.
This is professional sports. Not choir boys playing baseball after the mass on sundays.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

It seems some people still like to treat players as some type of property. On the never ending topic of Russian kids going to Canadian junior leagues, some people (surprisingly non-Russian Russophiles) think they're Russia's property and thus should not be allowed to make their own choices (no matter how succesfull it is in the ened). Such concept is completely alien to us "Westerners".

Sometimes I wonder if you can read.
You are an intelligent person (I'm not being sarcastic), it just happens that we almost never agree.
You miss the point that no one wants to hinder any "freedom" to the players, we (non-Russians and Russians alike) just constate the fact that most of the players who decided to go to the CHL just had a bad idea.