KHL Expansion Part VII

Discussion in 'The KHL' started by SoupNazi, Apr 22, 2016.

  1. Toro2017

    Toro2017 Registered User

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    If that is not publicly known, is there any speculation about it or do you have an educated guess, how much it could be? I remember reading an article, some years ago, that on that year SKA (for example) got less than 200.000€ in tv-money. So how much could it be today?

    In Finland financial statements are public and because of that, finnish journalist found out, how much the tv-deal of Liiga was worth. Do we have swedish users here? And are viasats financial statements public in Sweden and if, can it be found out, how much they paid for the KHL tv-rights?
     
  2. vorky

    vorky @vorkywh24

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    replied here
     
  3. mkev400

    mkev400 Registered User

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    Ok, I think I need to Chime in here. First off I mean no disrespect to Vorky. Your post in the general discussions, business deals etc. are very well laid out and thought through and provide great inside on the KHL. But when it comes to expansion, I feel you are more passionate and leading with what you want to see, without considering outside circumstances. I get that Germany and Switzerland sound attractive but the last I (doesnt mean its the most recent stand) heard of interest from Germany was Hamburg after AEG was folding the DEL team

    You keep mentioning that there is serious/concrete interest from Germany, but at some point you need to give examples. I had a quick search around for latest articles. There is an interview with Andrei Trefilov, a legend in German hockey as much as in Russia, from 2015 where he said Germany should explore a team in the KHL in the long term (in the same interview he also said a Chinese team will not happen). The other two articles say that the plans are on ice (in 2011 when it was rumored to be an artificial team from Leipzig) and Sept 2016 when it was supposed to be Hamburg (and the German Federation stated they wouldn't entertain the idea).

    In Germany? Not much. The DEL gets roughly €4 million per year for 4 years. Per team thats about €285k and some change per team per year (14 Teams). And those are (bar 1 game a week) EXCLUSIVE broadcasting rights. As you can see Telekom didnt have to bid a lot of money to get German Ice Hockey under their wing. And that is for a league with local (Dusseldorf-Cologne, Mannheim-Schwenningen, Ingolstadt-Augsburg-Munich-Nurnberg) rivalries and duels. In the KHL there are no IT-factor games except for maybe SKA and Kovalchuck? So you can see there isnt much money in Ice hockey in Germany. As a comparison, they are paying 16 million per year for the rights to the third tier of German Football as of this season.

    Valid points yes. but of those 80 millions, how many are hockey fans? Already I'd say under that argument you are closer to 15 million at max. And since Germany is a large country location is important. Lets say Hamburg is chosen as location for the KHL. Now look at the real demographics of Ice Hockey in Germany. Id say most of the fans come from the south. From Cologne, Hamburg is some 400km away, and even more from most of the Southern German Cities were hockey is more prevalent. Thats a long journey for a midweek home game against Yugra. Especially when you consider that you have a perfectly good domestic club close to home that doesnt get slaughtered by any half decent team from the middle of nowhere, because Germany doesnt have the talent depth for the KHL. A league with "some" parity like the DEL is a lot more attractive for the casual fan. And this isnt Canada where families take entire "summer" holidays just to travel to Montreal to see half a playoff series of the Canadiens (as many Newfoundland people do, as my sources tell me).
    So in all likelihood you'd need an already established team from Germany that has some scale of fan support and has the market size that can attract an even bigger audience. Unfortunately, those markets are few and far between. And the there is the hurdle of the German federation baring that.

    Ok, granted, this quiote I've taken a little out of context, but it will still support my argument. Money is a big problem for Ice Hockey in Germany in fact. In 2013 Hannover went bankrupt because of a lack of funds. They lived beyond their means, won a championship and it was downhill from there very fast. The financial support just wasnt there. And thats for a DEL Budget, which is arguably a lot smaller than KHL requirements.
    Why did Hamburg ultimately fold? AEG tried to find a buyer (obviously at the right asking price) but no local or even any suitable buyer was willing to put up the money for it, and even with Fans pledging large sums of money there was no potential owner to be found who saw the large fan support as a motivation to invest, because running the freezers was just not profitable at all. Not even as a marketing tool!
    Dusseldorf is probably the closest example of a KHL-like model that survived after the investors (the Metro Group) pulled out of the team. The team nearly collapsed for the second time in 14 years, and were only just saved by Fans (and the Rock Band Toten Hosen who bought a stake, but I digress). In any case, what followed were 2-3 years at the bottom of the pile.
    Other examples of teams that had major financial problems with the "comparatively low" DEL Budgets are the Frankfurt Lions. Money will be a factor, and I dont think a German Team would generate enough of a Budget for the KHL, even if we leave out the player Budgets, operations cost will be a first major hurdle.

    In summary, I get where your excitement over Germany comes from, Its a great potential, but Factors such as Finances, Attractiveness and true potential hockey market size, combined with a rather limited player pool don't make me very positive of a KHL expansion ever happening. Especially if the the biggest hurdle in Germany is the federation, which similar to Sweden does not have a soft spot for the idea of a European KHL expansion.
     
  4. vorky

    vorky @vorkywh24

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    @mkev400

    Interesting read. Thanks for it.

    I will be short.

    Nobody will tell to media right now that this or that club will join the KHL. Only a few people know what is happening behind the scenes. Jokerit is great example. There were rumors about various Finnish teams, Espoo one ot them. What happened? You know.

    You mentioned Trefilov. Per your source he said no Chinese expansion. That says a lot about his KHL knowledge.

    I just analyse the KHL´s statements, what are their goals. Since he came to the office, Chernyshenko has said many things on expansion. But he has never mentioned Germany, Switzerland and Japan (to be clear that there is interest from these countries). He has always said "Europe" & "I will tell you when there are serious news". This summer he mentioned Germany, Switzerland and Japan. I ask why? What happened? Btw, I am not supporter of Kalnins guy, but he said "DEL club interested". It is up to you if you believe him.

    Yes, German federation is against the KHL. Finnish is as well. It is only about negotiations. Btw, do you know who was at Moscow Hockey Forum last year? Franz Reindl. All European hockey federations ignored the Forum, if you are not aware of it.

    I will not argue with you on money problems in German hockey. I do not know details. But I know one thing, it is easier to find a sponsor for bigger league than smaller.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  5. Jussi

    Jussi Registered User

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    Then owner Jussi Salonoja traveled to Moscow to talk with KHL reprentatives, nobody showed at the airport to meet him and that was the end of it. Kummola wouldnt' have allowed it either since he didn't have financial stake in the club. Nothing came out of the talks with Kärpät either. No other Finnish club will talk anymore either after having seen what happened to Jokerit and the federation is no longer run by a semi-corrupt Kummola so that's not happening.
     
  6. Albatros

    Albatros Registered User

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    I could see Ilves playing in the KHL once the new arena is there, has more potential than Espoo definitely.
     
  7. Kshahdoo

    Kshahdoo Registered User

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    And what point for them to play in the KHL? I mean, Jokerit plays in the KHL because of Russian help, it's obvious, without Rotenberg's money this project isn't viable at all. And are there Russian billionaires in Sweden to sponsor Ilves?
     
  8. Exarz

    Exarz Registered User

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    I believe the Chinese are funding Jokerit now?
     
  9. vorky

    vorky @vorkywh24

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    I hope he meant Ilves Tampere, Finland.
     
  10. Albatros

    Albatros Registered User

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    Indeed the team that is perennially unable to challenge its local rivals in the Liiga anymore despite a comparable fanbase. In Sweden there were similar rumors related to AIK before. The Tampere teams have had notorious foreign-based owners before, so if the current Ilves management fails (which I hope they won't), then that would again be an option to keep the team going. Of course there are and would be major obstacles to overcome as well, but still it's way more viable than about any other major team in Finland.
     
  11. scud9

    scud9 Registered User

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    In real life Jokerit net revenue for 2016 was roughly 10 million euros. And the lost was 15 million euros. And numbers are not getting better. (https://www.finder.fi/Urheilutoimintaa/Jokerit+Hockey+Club+Oy/Helsinki/yhteystiedot/2829440) No there will not be other team from Finland in KHL.

    Interesting thing is that two teams while playing in FEL are getting approx the same net revenue than Jokerit. These teams are Kärpät and HIFK. But they are making profits :laugh: You don't go to Russia for the goldrush, it's not Klondike!
     
  12. Jussi

    Jussi Registered User

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    Nope, still Rotenberg.
     
  13. Jussi

    Jussi Registered User

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    Finland. :rant:
     
  14. hockeyMB89

    hockeyMB89 Registered User

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    ..
    ..
     
  15. Urbanskog

    Urbanskog Platinum Member

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  16. Rigafan

    Rigafan Registered User

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    These are the places the KHL belongs! I'm in support
     
  17. Go Donbass

    Go Donbass Registered User

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    This Tashkent rumour is picking up traction. I've seen this story on a couple of different Russian language sports sites now.
     
  18. Urbanskog

    Urbanskog Platinum Member

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    The thing is, Uzbekistan isn't even a member of the IIHF yet.
     
  19. Albatros

    Albatros Registered User

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    Binokor used to play in the Soviet second league in the 1980s, so it's not a total no man's land despite the current sad state of Uzbek hockey.
     
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  20. Acallabeth

    Acallabeth Curses & prophecies

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    I can't believe a team from Tashkent is even seriously discussed. Zero hockey traditions, arena still being conctructed, not exactly a wealthy market, and who's going to found it? Gastarbeiters? If the K wants to remove Russian teams for sadf expansion like this, they are doomed.
     
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  21. Yakushev72

    Yakushev72 Registered User

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    Maybe expansion to Ulan Bator after Tashkent! Expansion just for the sake of expansion is crazy!
     
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  22. Albatros

    Albatros Registered User

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    On the other hand in Uzbekistan the economy is booming unlike in current KHL countries (or most potential candidates) bar China.
     
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  23. Rcknrollkillnmachine

    Rcknrollkillnmachine Registered User

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    Hockey in a ghost town albeit a wealthy one I guess. Seems to be following the money like NHL's southern expansions but this may end up detrimental if there are more teams from non-traditional hockey, wealthy cities but half empty rinks.
     
  24. Albatros

    Albatros Registered User

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    Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I think Tashkent would do at least the ~5000 they have in Astana minding that it would be the biggest show in town. Perhaps it wouldn't last forever, but if they have the arena built anyway then maybe it doesn't even matter.
     
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  25. Rcknrollkillnmachine

    Rcknrollkillnmachine Registered User

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    Never thought of referring to a map; that has to be the case in order to draw punters.

    edit: misunderstood and thought you referred to a rivalry.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017 at 1:46 PM

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