KHL Contraction Part I (Mod Warning - Post #15)

[hansomreiste]

Politically now KHL has no future. Financially never has....The existence of this league is unjustified, money/salaries are unfair/unearned.
So sooner, than later, it's going to be Russian teams plus a few Chinese. Than NHL will get serious about the Asian market, and KHL will lose aforementioned teams as well.

NHL just wants the Chinese money by marketing their product, for which they don't need to snatch some useless teams from KHL. At this point, Global Series should be more than enough for them to conquer the Chinese market. Moreover, unless the technology suddenly develops immensely and travel issues become a thing of the past, there is absolutely zero sense in adding a Chinese team to NHL.

Though I tend to agree with you about the rest. KHL has been doing really well to keep the league running but at some point they will have trouble finding cash. Being the "best league" in terms of salary (after NHL) is not possible in Russia in the long run unless you totally rely on oligarch money, which is not the best way to make the league self-sustainable. Or, just maybe, KHL will keep improving alongside with Russian economy and in next 10 years the scenery will change immensely, with Russians being able to pay like 20USD for a hockey game. Then we have a perfect KHL.

I wonder about that Uzbeki team since Wiki states that once their new rink is opened they could host games from next season i.e. KHL

Having read your post, I looked into it. Actually, the construction started last year and according to a piece of news dated 7 February of this year, it continues in full swing and the arena is expected to be opened at the end of this year. In this case, it would be ready for KHL hockey in 2019-20. Though at this point I'm not getting very excited - things tend to change very quickly and plans are almost never reliable in Central Asia. This arena could've been used for many other things and while the main reason seems to be "hockey", it doesn't mean we'll get to have KHL hockey in Tashkent in future.

 

[cska78]

what Uzbeki team, u kidding me?

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

what Uzbeki team, u kidding me?

It's just a wild rumor

 

[Rigafan]

It's just a wild rumor

Hopefully not one backed by Oil or it'll turn true!

 

[hansomreiste]

what Uzbeki team, u kidding me?

But why? It could be a nice addition provided that the team is a well-run project. Can't see any reason why they'd bring in less fun than Kunlun. They've been in the league for two seasons now with nothing to show for other than a play-off run supported by around 500 fans in the stand with a team full of foreigners. They couldn't even secure an arena, leading to them playing in different cities, which is funny for a project that has been going on for such a long time (including the times before their inclusion). Humo Arena looks to be a perfect place for hockey and I believe Uzbekistan has potential to be a good future market.

Of course I'd rather see a team from London, Vienna or Hamburg; no need to argue about that but if the expansion is not coming to west, then I would be more than OK with some USSR vibes.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Because the league should fix its shit instead of murking themselves into more and more of these fantasy projects. It should be a hockey league first and flying circus for people who haven't seen hockey before second.

The measuring stick shouldn't be failing Kunlun, it should be Lev Praha. If they are a "potentially good hockey market" let them play in the VHL first.

 

[Rcknrollkillnmachine]

I watched Eisbaren Berlin play Nuremberg last Monday in the almost 15,000 capacity Mercedes Benz rink online and that was impressive an atmosphere hence I can see why KHL wants them; I'd love to see a game there as my bro lives in Berlin (I enjoy the few DEL games I catch).

Hamburg Freezers were another one pinned for KHL until they went under a few years back. Nice arena and shirt along with the name as well as Hamburg being a great city so a revival in KHL would be great for them.

Either teams' inclusion would be good as any western club with my point being although Uzbekistan is an interesting move that could work, western expansion is key as well as making the league more of a level playing field so that the Jokerits and Rigas can at least have a shot at the Gagarin Cup. If they don't then the league will be dead within ten years as the Kunlun example doesn't bode well for the future if better marketing, funding and other areas are not improved - Olimpics or not.

Edit: that's not say any league such as DEL would allow this or any league. Perhaps creating a franchise in major western cities might be their only option although that kind of team could be dead in the water due to local apathy.

 

[Rcknrollkillnmachine]

I forgot to mention that eastern expansion is also important in order to increase rivalries for Amur, Admiral and Kunlun as well as shortening travel costs for western team when in the east and the aforementioned.

Whether any of this comes to fruition who knows.

 

[hansomreiste]

Because the league should fix its **** instead of murking themselves into more and more of these fantasy projects. It should be a hockey league first and flying circus for people who haven't seen hockey before second.

The measuring stick shouldn't be failing Kunlun, it should be Lev Praha. If they are a "potentially good hockey market" let them play in the VHL first.

Well I've been here since for a long time and you already know what I think about this: I'm all in for KHL first fixing its shit before expanding. No problem. However, when it comes to expansion/contraction, I always tend to be optimistic about ex-USSR countries more than any other one. Not necessarily rooting for a team from Uzbekistan in particular. In fact, I'm still waiting for a team from Krasnoyarsk.

 

[Exarz]

I always tend to be optimistic about ex-USSR countries more than any other one.

It makes no sense putting teams from post-Soviet states with zero hockey culture in the second best hockey league in the world. The only ones with hockey tradition are Russia, Latvia, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Et voilà – all of them already got a KHL franchise.

If they were to be interested in post-Soviet states' hockey development, they should focus on junior hockey cooperation to make them somewhat decent and building up some kind of hockey tradition so they could at least put a VHL team on the ice.

 

[Faterson]

The only ones with hockey tradition are Russia, Latvia, Belarus and Kazakhstan.

I have always wondered why there is no hockey tradition in Lithuania and Estonia. Is there a logical explanation? Is it because of the larger proportion of ethnic Russians in Latvia?

(Similarly, I never could quite understand why Lithuania is a super-power in basketball, but not Latvia or Estonia. I suppose that Estonia is a super-power in IT infrastructure, unlike Latvia and Lithuania.)

 

[Exarz]

I have always wondered why there is no hockey tradition in Lithuania and Estonia. Is there a logical explanation? Is it because of the larger proportion of ethnic Russians in Latvia?

(Similarly, I never could quite understand why Lithuania is a super-power in basketball, but not Latvia or Estonia. I suppose that Estonia is a super-power in IT infrastructure, unlike Latvia and Lithuania.)

Latvia played hockey prior to the Soviet occupation and actually participated in the World Championships in the 30's. Estonia became an IIHF member in 1935 and Lithuania in 1938, but they never participated in any international events until after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Why the hockey tradition is stronger in Latvia than the other Baltic states might be better explained by a Baltic native.

 

[Acallabeth]

Well I've been here since for a long time and you already know what I think about this: I'm all in for KHL first fixing its **** before expanding. No problem. However, when it comes to expansion/contraction, I always tend to be optimistic about ex-USSR countries more than any other one. Not necessarily rooting for a team from Uzbekistan in particular. In fact, I'm still waiting for a team from Krasnoyarsk.

Well, at least a football team is a favorite for promotion
Are you coming to the Universiade next year?

 

[Marky1999]

(Similarly, I never could quite understand why Lithuania is a super-power in basketball, but not Latvia or Estonia.)

You have never heard of Kristaps Porzingis or Davis Bertans? Latvia is really good at basketball now.

 

[CPFC]

Latvia played hockey prior to the Soviet occupation and actually participated in the World Championships in the 30's. Estonia became an IIHF member in 1935 and Lithuania in 1938, but they never participated in any international events until after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Why the hockey tradition is stronger in Latvia than the other Baltic states might be better explained by a Baltic native.

Hockey seems to be a highly Russian sport in Estonia if you look at the Hokiliiga rosters. Mostly Russian names.

 

[Faterson]

You have never heard of Kristaps Porzingis or Davis Bertans?

Nope. But I don't follow basketball, and couldn't even name NBA championship teams, present or past.

(Basketball is very much a second-tier sport in Slovakia, along with volleyball and handball, and it's puzzling to observe it being so big in America, bigger even than ice hockey, which is unimaginable in Slovakia. I mean, why is basketball so huge and a commercial empire in America, but volleyball and handball are not? There's no explanation, I guess. Cultural differences are fun!)

Latvia is really good at basketball now.

OK. Probably not yet world-famous, I guess. The fame of Lithuanian basketball goes back decades. Even I, who knows nothing about basketball, am familiar with a name like Sabonis, and I know he's something like an Einstein within basketball, or the equivalent of Gretzky in hockey.

But overall, it's surprising why basketball would be so prominent especially in Lithuania, and hockey so prominent especially in Latvia, given the cultural similarities of the three Baltic countries in other respects.

 

[Marky1999]

(Basketball is very much a second-tier sport in Slovakia, along with volleyball and handball, and it's puzzling to observe it being so big in America, bigger even than ice hockey, which is unimaginable in Slovakia.)

It's probably because Slovakia's basketball team isn't good. Plus why would they watch basketball when they can watch a really good hockey team and a good football team. When a Slovakian gets to the NBA, trust me basketball will be really popular there.

(But overall, it's surprising why basketball would be so prominent especially in Lithuania, and hockey so prominent especially in Latvia, given the cultural similarities of the three Baltic countries in other respects).

Its also probably the same reason why Slovakian's don't watch basketball. However if Lithuania can get promoted this year, hockey could gain some popularity.

 

[hansomreiste]

It makes no sense putting teams from post-Soviet states with zero hockey culture in the second best hockey league in the world. The only ones with hockey tradition are Russia, Latvia, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Et voilà – all of them already got a KHL franchise.

If they were to be interested in post-Soviet states' hockey development, they should focus on junior hockey cooperation to make them somewhat decent and building up some kind of hockey tradition so they could at least put a VHL team on the ice.

But the same could be said about Kunlun as well. They bring absolutely nothing to the table and I don't think their hockey culture is better than any ex-USSR country. Maybe they pump cash for KHL but with a strong financial backing this can be the case with a team from Uzbekistan as well - without the money, they would never be in the equation anyways. If I could add three teams to this league, I'd go for Gothenburg-Hamburg-Krasnoyarsk trio probably, but this is extremely unlikely to happen. If they need to expand and are unable to do that westwards, then I see no problem going for ex-USSR countries. I see no reason why it would be worse.

Well, at least a football team is a favorite for promotion
Are you coming to the Universiade next year?

Until two weeks ago, I was almost sure that they'd go up - but last two losses frightened me a lot. Trip to Vladivostok, then Olimpiyets at home, followed by Krylya Sovetov away... Neither Orenburg nor Samara are going away; it's going to be really difficult to hang onto top two now.

Coming to Krasnoyarsk... Oh, don't even bring this up, it's a sad tale for me. I actually got accepted as a volunteer for World Cup this summer. I was supposed to act as media assistant in Nizhny Novgorod - almost everything is paid for and I'm receiving an official invitation from Russian Federation. How cool. However, I had to decline the offer because it conflicts with my school schedule - going to Russia means failing the year and having to take an extremely difficult "exemption exam" in September. Having lost 5 years already, I am not in a position to risk my education anymore. My grades are perfect and if I keep attending classes, I can easily get to the "actual" faculty (now I'm at preparatory). I will do that. I applied for volunteering back in 2016 so couldn't have imagined at all that I'd be here and in this position now.

Do you know anything about volunteering in Universiade 2019? It looks like they're still receiving applications on their website. Though it is impossible for me to know the schedule for the next year now... If it somehow coincides with semester, maybe I can apply and get accepted as well.

 

[Exarz]

But the same could be said about Kunlun as well. They bring absolutely nothing to the table and I don't think their hockey culture is better than any ex-USSR country. Maybe they pump cash for KHL but with a strong financial backing this can be the case with a team from Uzbekistan as well - without the money, they would never be in the equation anyways. If I could add three teams to this league, I'd go for Gothenburg-Hamburg-Krasnoyarsk trio probably, but this is extremely unlikely to happen. If they need to expand and are unable to do that westwards, then I see no problem going for ex-USSR countries. I see no reason why it would be worse.

Kunlun is only a commercial project and what they bring to the table is a so far untouched potential hockey market with a population around 1.4 billion people. I'm trying to find the source of this, but I believe I heard that China had millions of people watching the gold medal game between Germany and the OAR. Plus, Beijing alone had a nominal GDP of $4148 billion. If you seriously think this is comparable to an Uzbek team, then I don't know what to say.

If the revenue for both the KHL in China and Kunlun as a team haven't increased drastically after the 2021/22 Olympic season, I am pretty certain that Kunlun will cease to exist.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Well as it was answered quite a few times on these boards but to put it really shortly:

1) USSR invested into sports countries were already good at: hockey in Latvia and basketball in Lithuania (we were '37 and '39 European champs).
2) Elektrenai was the only town in Lithuania with indoors skating rink until the 80s. Then Vilnius and Kaunas got those as well but at the time political climate meant that hockey was considered a "Russian sport" and most Lithuanian boys would choose basketball or football simply out of principle. Even to this day hockey is THE sport of the Russian minority in Lithuania, especially in Vilnius. It's evident by the amount of Russian surnames on Lithuanian NT as well. No it's becoming less and less so but 10-15 years ago it was still very much the case. This obviously applies to Estonia as well, even more so.
3) There is a reason why WCs are being played in Lithuania's largest arenas - hockey is rather popular in Lithuania. Most people like the sport just don't consider it their own hence don't follow it at all. They are interested in it if the opportunity arises though (Olympics, championships in Lithuania). During the WC in Vilnius Lithuanian games averaged 8k viewers or so, even during the WJC in Elektrenai Lithuanian games were more or less sold out (in 2,5k capacity arena).

Long story short, Lithuania is a decent hockey market but it obviously couldn't sustain support for a KHL level team yet. At the same time, I think either us, or Estonia, should be miles ahead of Uzbekistan.

 

[vorky]

Kunlun is only a commercial project and what they bring to the table is a so far untouched potential hockey market with a population around 1.4 billion people. I'm trying to find the source of this, but I believe I heard that China had millions of people watching the gold medal game between Germany and the OAR. Plus, Beijing alone had a nominal GDP of $4148 billion. If you seriously think this is comparable to an Uzbek team, then I don't know what to say.

If the revenue for both the KHL in China and Kunlun as a team haven't increased drastically after the 2021/22 Olympic season, I am pretty certain that Kunlun will cease to exist.

Well, I found only numbers for CAN vs GER game, but still ....


PS: The guy is KRS VP & works or worked (I do not know) for Chinese TV broadcasting the NHL, the KHL and I hope the Games too.

 

[Yakushev72]

Any suggestion that the NHL would consider expanding to Asia is absolutely insane! Why in the name of God would they do that? To voluntarily add sub-standard teams to lower the quality of the on-ice product (by a lot!) would be suicidal. Nothing to gain, everything to lose! Road trips of 8-9,000 miles would not go over big with the NA-based NHLPA, so they would have to limit head-to-head competition to once or twice a year. Also, the definitions of "markets" in the USA and Canada is so much different than in other countries. Advertisers in NA pay huge amounts for sponsorship of TV games. Could you get the same from advertisers in Manchuria or Vladivostok, when it is Admiral vs. Kunlun? Many, many things would have to change before they would even consider such a move.

 

[Milos Krasic]

Uzbekistan isn't even good at their main sport. They can't qualify for a World Cup out of Asia, or even win the Asian Cup.

 

[Pouchkine]

They are getting close though and are better than a lot of other national teams...

 

[Acallabeth]

I know who's close, and it's us close to Terre d'Offtopique. Let's get back to discussing the Kontraction.