KHL business aspects discussion

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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But your'e completely missing out on the main point, number of games played. That fact that you're trying to put the KHL ahead while completely ignoring that fact is rather baffling.
You implied that the KHL does not take results on ice into account for revenue sharing. On the other hand, the CHL does. And this, according to you, is a difference between both leagues. That is not true.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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But your'e completely missing out on the main point, number of games played. That fact that you're trying to put the KHL ahead while completely ignoring that fact is rather baffling.

Ok but considering the CHL only it's like counting just a part of the season. Then why don't count KHL numbers, for example, only starting with the playoffs?
The CHL is just a part of the season, without the national leagues there would be not CHL. Not trying to downplay the CHL here, just stating facts. The KHL is an "independent" competition.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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You implied that the KHL does not take results on ice into account for revenue sharing. On the other hand, the CHL does. And this, according to you, is a difference between both leagues. That is not true.

Well, to be honest, I don't think that Jussi is arguing that. I simply think that he is trying to state that the revenue for the single game is better in the CHL. But such a reasonment is absurd for the aforementioned reasons.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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Well, to be honest, I don't think that Jussi is arguing that. I simply think that he is trying to state that the revenue for the single game is better in the CHL. But such a reasonment is absurd for the aforementioned reasons.
Agree, it is absurd logic.

The CHL can play more games. No problem. If this happened, would be CHL revenue much bigger? Or stayed the same? My point is that the KHL is able to earn more money than the CHL.
 

Toro2017

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Sep 14, 2017
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What of a question is it?

It was meant to be a joke to underline how stupid it is to compare league with a tournament.

CHL is a tournament, which is not the primary competition for its participants. If KHL teams would join CHL, it would still not be the primary competition for its participants. One could compare CHL with other tournaments, like euro hockey tour or continental cup and in this context CHL is doing relatively fine, but ofcourse needs to still grow.

Then if we want to compare leagues, we can for example compare KHL to SHL. KHL shares 5M€ with 24 teams. Next season every SHL team will get 5M€ each (per year), from the tv-rights. So is SHL 24 times better than KHL? Liiga also got a new tv-deal and it it rumored to be 23M€ per year for 15 teams. Only if CHL would become league like KHL and it would be its participants primary competition for the season, then it would be relevant to compare these leagues.
 

Jussi

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Well, to be honest, I don't think that Jussi is arguing that. I simply think that he is trying to state that the revenue for the single game is better in the CHL. But such a reasonment is absurd for the aforementioned reasons.

No, I was arguing that the CHL is a short tournament where as the KHL is a season long league. Thus you shouldn't compare their revenue head-to-head. Also because of the prize money structure in the CHL, clubs don't have to share it with other teams. If they do well, it will go directly to them. There is a reason why Jokerit owner Harkimo wouldn't mind taking part in the CHL. Their losses would decrease.

Toro2017 explained it better above.
 
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Toro2017

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What is your source? I remember that they had 3.8 millions (still a great number of course), but maybe I have old information.

Expressen told us that six hockey allsvenskan teams are about to withdraw from swedish hockey system, because the gap between SHL and hockey allsvenskan is about to grow too wide. In that story they tell that SHL teams will get 45m kronor each, per season, after current season. RatesFX tells us that today 45m kronor would be 4,55m€ or 5,35m$.
 

Jussi

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vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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A few questions

- what is included in this SHL deal?
- what about league´s sponsors?
- what about HA´s share?
- What are SHL´s costs for securing tv deal?
- How much money does SHL keep for itself?

That is not as easy as you would like it to be.
 

Jussi

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A few questions

- what is included in this SHL deal?
- what about league´s sponsors?
- what about HA´s share?
- What are SHL´s costs for securing tv deal?
- How much money does SHL keep for itself?

That is not as easy as you would like it to be.

In the Aftonbladet story from February, the SHL declined to comment on details.

And why wouln't it be "easy"?
 

Toro2017

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Sep 14, 2017
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- what about HA´s share?

I don't know if the same company have somekind of combine deal with both SHL and Hockey Allsvenskan or does those leagues have different tv-partners. But on that same expressen story they tell than after this season every SHL teams will get up to 45m kronor, per season. Hockey Allsvenskan teams get at most 2,3m kronor each, per season.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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I don't know if the same company have somekind of combine deal with both SHL and Hockey Allsvenskan or does those leagues have different tv-partners. But on that same expressen story they tell than after this season every SHL teams will get up to 45m kronor, per season. Hockey Allsvenskan teams get at most 2,3m kronor each, per season.
All questions above are important. If we do not know answers, we can not judge or compare.

It is one thing if the deal is negotiated in one package for both leagues. And other situation if every league negotiates the deal for itself. Why are HA clubs not satisfied? If they negotiated a separate deal, there would be no reason for such statements.

If I get it, this deal includes an income from league´s sponsors. Are I right? If yes, it would not be only TV money as presented here.

The costs question is also important if you want to compare it.

Not as simple as someone would like it to be. To sum it up, the KHL includes something else in revenue sharing than the SHL.
 

Toro2017

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All questions above are important. If we do not know answers, we can not judge or compare.

You have judged and compared CHL (tournament) to KHL (league) just by the prize money alone, but you can't compare two leagues from the "tv-product" point of view? Or how well does these two products sell in the global market? You have told us that KHL teams get 5 million for 24 teams. Now we know that Swedish elite teams are about to get same amount of money for each team, per season. I think its not very hard to compare, but I also know, that despite of this situation, the most expensive players in the old continent still plays in KHL.

It is one thing if the deal is negotiated in one package for both leagues. And other situation if every league negotiates the deal for itself. Why are HA clubs not satisfied? If they negotiated a separate deal, there would be no reason for such statements.

But why is this at all important, if we want to compare SHL to KHL from the tv-money point of view? Or if we want to compare Liiga to KHL? Hockey Allsvenskan should be compared to VHL or Mestis (if we want to do that) as all of them are second tier competitions.

If I get it, this deal includes an income from league´s sponsors. Are I right? If yes, it would not be only TV money as presented here.

I have to admit that I don't know, but in the article they only talk about the tv-deal and its impact on the situation. So I don't understand, how you can get it the way that it would also include league's sponsors? Do you have another source that would tell us more about the situation?
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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You have judged and compared CHL (tournament) to KHL (league) just by the prize money alone, but you can't compare two leagues from the "tv-product" point of view? Or how well does these two products sell in the global market? You have told us that KHL teams get 5 million for 24 teams. Now we know that Swedish elite teams are about to get same amount of money for each team, per season. I think its not very hard to compare, but I also know, that despite of this situation, the most expensive players in the old continent still plays in KHL.

We know that the CHL-Infront deal includes TV agreements & sponsors. If I am wrong, let me know. We know how the KHL revenue sharing system works. So we can compare. We can not do that with the SHL, because we do not know what is included in this sum you mentioned (btw. future deal, you compared past vs future deal). The deal was presented here as TV deal only. But, the deal should include a central sponsorhip as quoted below.

We do not know how much money will the KHL share in future. So, we can not compare with the SHL. On the other hand, we know how much the CHL plans to share in future - 3,7 million EUR in 2022 or so. So we can compare with the KHL, because there is zero chance the league will share less in future.

I care what the CHL & the KHL say - wanting to be the best in Europe (Euroasia). Remind you prize money of the CHL 2008 - if you want to play with a tournament/a league game - it was 10 million EUR in the CHL 2008. The CHL 2014 will not reach this sum in the future (2022 or so).

But why is this at all important, if we want to compare SHL to KHL from the tv-money point of view? Or if we want to compare Liiga to KHL? Hockey Allsvenskan should be compared to VHL or Mestis (if we want to do that) as all of them are second tier competitions.
If the sum you presented was negotiated in one package, it is important for analysis. We do not know. Again, why the statement of six HA clubs if they negotiated separately? They are not good enough, get less money. Simple.

I have to admit that I don't know, but in the article they only talk about the tv-deal and its impact on the situation. So I don't understand, how you can get it the way that it would also include league's sponsors? Do you have another source that would tell us more about the situation?
I read this.

37 miljoner var för de 14 klubbarna

Sedan tillkommer centrala avtal som ligan tecknar med sponsorer, de senaste åren har det varit runt fem miljoner per klubb. Även den siffran kommer att öka.

Klubbarna har fått besked från SHL-ledningen att man under de här sex åren få ut mellan 42–48 miljoner kronor per säsong, centrala avtal inräknade.

37 million were for the 14 clubs

Then there are key agreements that the league signs with sponsors, in recent years there have been around five million per club. Even that figure will increase.

The clubs have been notified of the SHL management that during these six years they receive between 42-48 million kronor per season, including central agreements.

The question about league´s costs for making TV signal is important too. Because we know that the KHL pays a lot for it (because of ruble vs USD value). How much the SHL? I hope you are aware of the KHL revenue sharing model. How the final sum is calculated. To be short, it is income from TV deals minus costs for making TV signal. A part of the sum is keeped by the league & the rest is shared.
 
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Toro2017

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We do not know how much money will the KHL share in future. So, we can not compare with the SHL. On the other hand, we know how much the CHL plans to share in future - 3,7 million EUR in 2022 or so. So we can compare with the KHL, because there is zero chance the league will share less in future.

So because we don't know how much KHL will share in the future, we cannot compare it with another league, like SHL, but we can compare it to a tournament? Where is the logic in this?
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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The CHL plans to share 3,7 mil EUR in 2022, which is lower than the KHL shared last season. We know, the KHL will not share less. Simple. The CHL was below the KHL & will stay below.

We know how much (maximum) the SHL plans to share in future. We do not know how much (maximum) the KHL will share in future, we know only the minimum. How do you want to compare it?
 

Jussi

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But why is this at all important, if we want to compare SHL to KHL from the tv-money point of view? Or if we want to compare Liiga to KHL? Hockey Allsvenskan should be compared to VHL or Mestis (if we want to do that) as all of them are second tier competitions.

If I've understood correctly, the Allsvenskan tv contract is also with C More like SHL one? Jsut different deal. For comparison, in Finland the new tv contract with Telia will kick in next season and despite most people's expectations, will actually increase the money. The current one with Sanoma/Nelonen guarantees each team around 800K-i million euros. To my knowledge, leaguewide sponsors are never included in tv deals. Liiga doesn't have that many leaguewide sponsors compared to the national team, but the playoff revenue is shared, percentages according to success. In Finland, tv signal has always been provided by the rights holder/broadcasting company. Clubs don't need to worry about that.
 

Jussi

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The CHL plans to share 3,7 mil EUR in 2022, which is lower than the KHL shared last season. We know, the KHL will not share less. Simple. The CHL was below the KHL & will stay below.

We know how much (maximum) the SHL plans to share in future. We do not know how much (maximum) the KHL will share in future, we know only the minimum. How do you want to compare it?

Gee, I wonder why. Could it be that the CHL season is much shorter and they play much less games????
 
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Jumptheshark

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I talked to couple a couple of former NHLERS who played in the K and they explained why some players keep saying they did not get paid. While the players, when they signed the contract saw the exchange rate in US or Canadian dollars--they did not look at the Ruble amount in many cases.
One players signed a 2 year deal to play in the KHL at what saw was about $500k US which at the time was 13.5 million ruble a year. However the ruble went into the shitter as we know and while players were thinking "hey--I am getting paid is US bucks" they were getting paid in Ruble and it was being exchanged into US bucks via the bank. Teams paid the agreed upon upon Ruble--hey paid no more and players did not find this out till they got home.

Some players who thought there were getting 500K US in fact got only about 250K after they looked at their bank account back home.

The problem is that there are many reports that some of the Russian players who have gone back to mother Russia are actually getting paid in Euros and the money is staying off shore or out of the country.
We all remember Bruce Mcnall of the LAK in the 90's---the KHL has about 10 owners just like him
 

Toro2017

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The CHL plans to share 3,7 mil EUR in 2022, which is lower than the KHL shared last season. We know, the KHL will not share less. Simple. The CHL was below the KHL & will stay below.

We know how much (maximum) the SHL plans to share in future. We do not know how much (maximum) the KHL will share in future, we know only the minimum. How do you want to compare it?

Well, if this is the problem, then we can look at that article again, that you provided in the message #440. It says that the money shared will be 42-48 million kronor per team, per season. If 48m is maximum, then we can assume that 42m will be minimum. So can we compare now? It would be like 4,2m € per team, per season. Will KHL be able to share anything close to it for its teams, in the foreseeable future? Even if they get teams from Germany, Switzerland, South-Korea and Japan? If I would say "No way" would you say that I am wrong?
 

bordshockeypampen

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Dec 11, 2013
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A few questions

- what is included in this SHL deal?
- what about league´s sponsors?
- what about HA´s share?
- What are SHL´s costs for securing tv deal?
- How much money does SHL keep for itself?

That is not as easy as you would like it to be.

SHL doesn't keep money for itself. It's fully owned by the clubs, and make a profit each year of less than 50 000 SEK. So all money SHL earn go to the clubs (except whatever costs SHL might have).
 

bordshockeypampen

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Dec 11, 2013
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The question about league´s costs for making TV signal is important too. Because we know that the KHL pays a lot for it (because of ruble vs USD value). How much the SHL? I hope you are aware of the KHL revenue sharing model. How the final sum is calculated. To be short, it is income from TV deals minus costs for making TV signal. A part of the sum is keeped by the league & the rest is shared.

I don't know, but I think it's the television companies that is responsible for the entire production of the SHL broadcasts. It's probably included in the deals. So the SHL clubs are not involved in the TV production at all. They only have to provide space for the broadcasters to place their cameras and stuff somewhere.
 

Jussi

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I don't know, but I think it's the television companies that is responsible for the entire production of the SHL broadcasts. It's probably included in the deals. So the SHL clubs are not involved in the TV production at all. They only have to provide space for the broadcasters to place their cameras and stuff somewhere.

Just like in Finland then.
 

Uskoton

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Nov 16, 2015
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I talked to couple a couple of former NHLERS who played in the K and they explained why some players keep saying they did not get paid. While the players, when they signed the contract saw the exchange rate in US or Canadian dollars--they did not look at the Ruble amount in many cases.
One players signed a 2 year deal to play in the KHL at what saw was about $500k US which at the time was 13.5 million ruble a year. However the ruble went into the ****ter as we know and while players were thinking "hey--I am getting paid is US bucks" they were getting paid in Ruble and it was being exchanged into US bucks via the bank. Teams paid the agreed upon upon Ruble--hey paid no more and players did not find this out till they got home.

Some players who thought there were getting 500K US in fact got only about 250K after they looked at their bank account back home.

The problem is that there are many reports that some of the Russian players who have gone back to mother Russia are actually getting paid in Euros and the money is staying off shore or out of the country.
We all remember Bruce Mcnall of the LAK in the 90's---the KHL has about 10 owners just like him

Oh such a shame he ONLY received $250k for living in Russia...

I mean I see your point, if they agreed one 1 amount they changed it its abit shady but lets be honest, nobody is losing out here. These foreign players come and chase the easy oil money then complain because living in Yugra isn't the same as living in LA.
 

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