Ken Holland End of Season Press Conference

[lomekian]

I don't understand, because he says it we should believe that he'll fix everything? Saying and doing are two different things. I can like what I hear and still be skeptical, this isn't a black or white type of conversation.

No problem with a bit of skepticism. It's a national pastime over here. Just frustrated because every time out rather inarticulate GM opens his mouth, the goalposts shift subtly to allow more bashing of the guy or some people imply he's fundamentally dishonest or incompetent or it descends into more rubbish about how we should have rebuilt in 2010 etc etc.

Every second thread on here for the last 3 or 4 years has turned into an attack on KH (and once again the 'apologists' line has emerged again as if we are talking about a military dictator), and it's unbelievably tiresome.

Every thread seemingly has the same 20 posters posting the same opinions about the same picks/deals/contracts and all used to slag off the GM.

This then makes those who think the GM is Ok-ish and hadn't been such a disaster despite obvious and fairly easy to agree on mistakes between 2012-2016 ish be made to feel like fanatical outliers simply because a balanced view is taken.

Do I think KH is the ideal candidate for a rebuild GM. No, but he might be reasonably good at it.

Did he make mistakes once we stopped being contenders? Yes.

Neither stops the majority of this press conference being a step in the right direction with some bold statements about future change that should leave us all feeling at least a little more optimistic

 

[Shaman464]

Who saw EDM vs CAR in '06 or NJD vs LA in '12, no one! Who saw OTT in the 3rd round last year, not one person outside OTT fans!

Carolina was 2nd in the east, so a lot of people saw that. Edmonton had elite defense (with Pronger being their top guy), and underachieved season expectations. In 2012 New Jersey was one of 5 teams in the East that were insanely close, it was hard to tell who would end up first and who would be 5th/6th, in the end 7 point separated NJD from the top spot in the east and they had 102 points, LA on the other hand entered that season being predicted to win the Pacific division and spent the first half of the season severely underachieving. But again, you have four examples in 13 years plus since the salary cap. That's not really anything can happen. Its more like there is a pretty tight relationship between seed and outcome.

 

[Shaman464]

No problem with a bit of skepticism. It's a national pastime over here. Just frustrated because every time out rather inarticulate GM opens his mouth, the goalposts shift subtly to allow more bashing of the guy or some people imply he's fundamentally dishonest or incompetent or it descends into more rubbish about how we should have rebuilt in 2010 etc etc.

Every second thread on here for the last 3 or 4 years has turned into an attack on KH (and once again the 'apologists' line has emerged again as if we are talking about a military dictator), and it's unbelievably tiresome.

Every thread seemingly has the same 20 posters posting the same opinions about the same picks/deals/contracts and all used to slag off the GM.

This then makes those who think the GM is Ok-ish and hadn't been such a disaster despite obvious and fairly easy to agree on mistakes between 2012-2016 ish be made to feel like fanatical outliers simply because a balanced view is taken.

Do I think KH is the ideal candidate for a rebuild GM. No, but he might be reasonably good at it.

Did he make mistakes once we stopped being contenders? Yes.

Neither stops the majority of this press conference being a step in the right direction with some bold statements about future change that should leave us all feeling at least a little more optimistic

There were no bold statements though. If this were two seasons ago, they would have been bold. But with one of the lowest ranked farm systems, no real blue chip prospects, a rapidly aging core, and two bottom 10 performances in a row, the only conclusion that isn't delusional is rebuild. KH is getting more rope than just about any other GM in the league would after multiple disappointing seasons and some pretty massive missteps. I listened to the whole conference twice, and he did say some good things, but given a track record of conservative moves, unless he really swings for the fences in the next twelve to twenty four months and really does take bold action (trading young pieces where the organization is strong for young pieces that they are weak in, no more NTCs for older, non-core players, and trading roleplayers when they reach the end of team control), then its going to be more KH kicking tires lip service. And given a half decade of diminish returns and lowering expectations, I think we have the right to be skeptical of KH.

 

[newfy]

There were no bold statements though. If this were two seasons ago, they would have been bold. But with one of the lowest ranked farm systems, no real blue chip prospects, a rapidly aging core, and two bottom 10 performances in a row, the only conclusion that isn't delusional is rebuild. KH is getting more rope than just about any other GM in the league would after multiple disappointing seasons and some pretty massive missteps. I listened to the whole conference twice, and he did say some good things, but given a track record of conservative moves, unless he really swings for the fences in the next twelve to twenty four months and really does take bold action (trading young pieces where the organization is strong for young pieces that they are weak in, no more NTCs for older, non-core players, and trading roleplayers when they reach the end of team control), then its going to be more KH kicking tires lip service. And given a half decade of diminish returns and lowering expectations, I think we have the right to be skeptical of KH.

I think hes getting rope because he was doing what he was told by ownership though, what some people cant seem to grasp is that maybe as a fan, you thought he should've started rebuilding in 2010 (thats not right to me) but that doesnt mean ownership would allow it to happen. Mike Illitch was dying, articles were coming out about how much the streak mattered AND a new arena was being built. Those contracts to guys like Nielsen are likely just the organization holding onto the streak.

Has he handed out bad contracts? In hindsight definitely. Has he drafted pretty well over his tenure? I would say yes. As soon as the wings missed the playoffs though, even with the new arena he started to make rebuilding moves and has by far the most picks (outside of vegas) in the upcoming draft to build for the future. I dont love Ken Holland and would have rather brought someone else in to rebuild after this year, but people are so blinded by hate for the guy they cant see the shift after missing the playoffs.

2 years is perfect because he wont be signing contract extensions to these new guys e'll be drafting high

 

[MintBerryCrunch]

Holland was asked on 97.1 this morning who led the initiative to keep pushing for the playoffs and "rebuilding on the fly" instead of doing a true rebuild. He said it was his call and he wasn't under pressure from ownership.

 

[Redder Winger]

So basically it's exactly as I said. Now he's saying more of what his critics want to hear, they decide either he's being dishonest or can't be trusted to make his intentions happen.

The rebuild has already started, but now its official.

Maybe a better question would be to ask
"What did he say that you disagree with?"
& "what didn't he say that you think he should have?"

Don't tell me the rebuild is on when you're signing Trevor Daley. and benching the only under-25 defenseman on the team.
When one of the worst and oldest defenses in the league can't find room for any of their D in Grand Rapids.

In that very press conference, Ken Holland talked about how old his defense was..
Whose fault is that? You knew how old it was when you went out and signed an old Daley to a multi-year deal.

 

[Winger98]

I think hes getting rope because he was doing what he was told by ownership though, what some people cant seem to grasp is that maybe as a fan, you thought he should've started rebuilding in 2010 (thats not right to me) but that doesnt mean ownership would allow it to happen. Mike Illitch was dying, articles were coming out about how much the streak mattered AND a new arena was being built. Those contracts to guys like Nielsen are likely just the organization holding onto the streak.

Has he handed out bad contracts? In hindsight definitely. Has he drafted pretty well over his tenure? I would say yes. As soon as the wings missed the playoffs though, even with the new arena he started to make rebuilding moves and has by far the most picks (outside of vegas) in the upcoming draft to build for the future. I dont love Ken Holland and would have rather brought someone else in to rebuild after this year, but people are so blinded by hate for the guy they cant see the shift after missing the playoffs.

2 years is perfect because he wont be signing contract extensions to these new guys e'll be drafting high

Nielsen was signed right after Weiss was bought out and Zetterberg had that year returning from back surgery where he hit a wall at like 40 games and didn't look like he could be a full-time center any more. I think that's why they were so aggressive going after Nielsen.

They should have went after a guy like Gagner for one year, just to see if Z could return to form, how Larkin matured, etc.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Don't tell me the rebuild is on when you're signing Trevor Daley. and benching the only under-25 defenseman on the team.

Not many teams have ever rebuilt if signing a depth veteran disqualifies it from being called a rebuild.

 

[Perfect Human]

Yea but since we didn't go to a 3rd straight and only won one series in 2010 it was time.

haha thanks for clearing that up

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

What evidence is their that ownership demanded Holland forsake any rebuild in order to maintain the streak?

Isnt it possible they had very little say and trusted Holland to do what be felt was right?

That it was his decision, his philosophy?

Perpuating this false narrative is as bad if not worse then anything those who attack Holland say, for at least they base things on what actually happened, even if after the fact...

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Don't tell me the rebuild is on when you're signing Trevor Daley. and benching the only under-25 defenseman on the team.
When one of the worst and oldest defenses in the league can't find room for any of their D in Grand Rapids.

In that very press conference, Ken Holland talked about how old his defense was..
Whose fault is that? You knew how old it was when you went out and signed an old Daley to a multi-year deal.

Young does not necessarily equal better. If Xaiver Ouellet is not an improvement on the roster, he doesn't deserve a spot because he happened to be born in 1994. If Dennis Cholowski or Filip Hronek or Vili Saarijavi or Ryan Sproul or the litany of young D we have had in Grand Rapids or currently have in Grand Rapids do not make the Detroit Red Wings a better roster, they are not entitled to a spot just because they happen to have a 2 in the tens digit of their age and a low number in the singles digit.

The amount of guys who actually benefit from a "sink or swim" approach to their development in D+1 or D+2 who were not 1st round picks is shockingly small. You can complain about overripe, but bringing up guys too early and getting them to play a different way than they're truly made for to simply survive is a god awful development method too. The Wings broke Tomas Jurco because Babcock wanted him up in Detroit and then made him a grinder when Jurco's biggest skill was that not only was he a pretty big, strong body, he had fantastic hands. He got rushed up, got beaten out of his stickhandling mode and could never get back into it.

And the D they have in GR?

Hronek - D+1, needs to keep offensive confidence while rounding defensive game. Not NHL ready
Saarijavi - Small, needs bulk, needs to round his defensive game while keeping offensive confidence - Not NHL ready
Cholo - still in juniors and not NHL ready enough to make the show.
Sulak - Just came over from Europe. Has to adjust to the NA ice surface - Not NHL ready.

Hell, the only guys who are actually NHL ready in GR are the same guys that you would eviscerate Holland for bringing up, the Lashoff types that are

Seriously, rebuilding does not mean "play only guys under a certain age limit. Rebuilding does not mean "we're not remotely trying to win games". That's tanking.

Lastly, Ken Holland is making a statement of fact that his defense is old and that he is working to address that. You don't address it, however, by just putting guys there to drop the numerical average. You put in guys who are ready and who can continue to grow. Could/Should Ouellet be given more time? Sure. But he is quite literally spare parts. Xaiver Ouellet playing will not develop to be more than an emergency #4, mediocre #5/6 D.

If Xaiver Ouellet was a plus NHL player (as in he was a significant long term asset), he would not be shuffled around on this defense. They signed Daley because Ouellet has shown no proclivity to be much more than he is.

 

[Goalie guy]

He didn’t. Not from the video I watched.

And I quote " We have tried and want to draft bigger, there are some really good small teams out there and bigger ones as well. We want to be a bigger team!" He came right out and said it. Is it bad? I don't know if we get size with skill I am all for it. I just don't want size for size over skill.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

Signing Trevor Daley doesn't mean they were going for it. They need someone else back there. Especially since Kronwall and Ericsson haven't exactly been the most durable. And then you have a free asset to move at the 19 or 20 deadline.

Daley really didn't block anybody either. I like XO but he dosen't skate well enough to be more than a 7th D. Hronek wasn't ready. Maybe you give a Hicketts a shot all year, but that's it. McIlrath, Renouf, Lashoff, etc. They're the scrubs who would have been up if we didn't sign Daley.

 

[Shaman464]

Young does not necessarily equal better. If Xaiver Ouellet is not an improvement on the roster, he doesn't deserve a spot because he happened to be born in 1994. If Dennis Cholowski or Filip Hronek or Vili Saarijavi or Ryan Sproul or the litany of young D we have had in Grand Rapids or currently have in Grand Rapids do not make the Detroit Red Wings a better roster, they are not entitled to a spot just because they happen to have a 2 in the tens digit of their age and a low number in the singles digit.

The amount of guys who actually benefit from a "sink or swim" approach to their development in D+1 or D+2 who were not 1st round picks is shockingly small. You can complain about overripe, but bringing up guys too early and getting them to play a different way than they're truly made for to simply survive is a god awful development method too. The Wings broke Tomas Jurco because Babcock wanted him up in Detroit and then made him a grinder when Jurco's biggest skill was that not only was he a pretty big, strong body, he had fantastic hands. He got rushed up, got beaten out of his stickhandling mode and could never get back into it.

And the D they have in GR?

Hronek - D+1, needs to keep offensive confidence while rounding defensive game. Not NHL ready
Saarijavi - Small, needs bulk, needs to round his defensive game while keeping offensive confidence - Not NHL ready
Cholo - still in juniors and not NHL ready enough to make the show.
Sulak - Just came over from Europe. Has to adjust to the NA ice surface - Not NHL ready.

Hell, the only guys who are actually NHL ready in GR are the same guys that you would eviscerate Holland for bringing up, the Lashoff types that are

Seriously, rebuilding does not mean "play only guys under a certain age limit. Rebuilding does not mean "we're not remotely trying to win games". That's tanking.

Lastly, Ken Holland is making a statement of fact that his defense is old and that he is working to address that. You don't address it, however, by just putting guys there to drop the numerical average. You put in guys who are ready and who can continue to grow. Could/Should Ouellet be given more time? Sure. But he is quite literally spare parts. Xaiver Ouellet playing will not develop to be more than an emergency #4, mediocre #5/6 D.

If Xaiver Ouellet was a plus NHL player (as in he was a significant long term asset), he would not be shuffled around on this defense. They signed Daley because Ouellet has shown no proclivity to be much more than he is.

But what does Daley actually bring? Its not like he was the difference between being a lottery team or not. Maybe he was the difference between being 5th and 3rd worst. But at that point who cares? The biggest difference between those is that 3rd worst gets better odds at a stud defenseman. I think what Redder is getting at is where the Wings are at right now they can afford to give a kid like XO a shot at real NHL minutes and see if he can finally pull it together, because the alternative, Daley, isn't going to be the piece that makes or breaks the season.

 

[Run the Jewels]

The only reason he signed Daley is because he wanted to be a playoff team. He talked about how great it would be to have playoff hockey in the new arena. That is how delusional he is, no one in ownership made him do anything.

He thought he had a playoff team; he had a team with dang near the worst ROW in the league. You could have signed a viable dman for way less than what you offered Daley. This is the guy tasked with the rebuild.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

The only reason he signed Daley is because he wanted to be a playoff team. He talked about how great it would be to have playoff hockey in the new arena. That is how delusional he is, no one in ownership made him do anything.

He thought he had a playoff team; he had a team with dang near the worst ROW in the league. You could have signed a viable dman for way less than what you offered Daley. This is the guy tasked with the rebuild.

Really? That's why he signed Daley? That sounds ludicrous and fully speculation on your part. But okay.

Of course he talked up playoff hockey in the new arena, was he or anyone else involved in the franchise supposed to confess that sucking night in and night out is the goal for the new arena?

No one in ownership made him do anything? Maybe they did not make him, as in give an ultimatum or hold a gun to his head, but it is very narrow and naive to assume that ownership was not on board or signing off on every major move he made. It's equally obtuse to think that ownership was not extremely proud of that playoff streak and wanted it to continue.

Whether he truly believed he had a playoff team or whether that was more media lip service to excite the general fan base, who can say? He publicly says now that we are not a playoff team for a few years most likely, I'm not sure if him uttering those words at the beginning of last season changes anything in regards to his deadline moves and I certainly don't see Trevor Daley as standing in the way of a rebuild.

I'm not a huge Holland fan and I would have been fine if the organization went a different direction, but some of the remarks here just deny common sense and are way too black and white to be realistic, yet they crop up again and again.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

But what does Daley actually bring? Its not like he was the difference between being a lottery team or not. Maybe he was the difference between being 5th and 3rd worst. But at that point who cares? The biggest difference between those is that 3rd worst gets better odds at a stud defenseman. I think what Redder is getting at is where the Wings are at right now they can afford to give a kid like XO a shot at real NHL minutes and see if he can finally pull it together, because the alternative, Daley, isn't going to be the piece that makes or breaks the season.

Even with where they are... I don’t want a guy like XO to get minutes by default. If he’s not good enough to be better at hockey than Nick Jensen, Trevor Daley nearing the end of his career, Injured Jonathan Ericsson, etc... he’s not very ****ing good and we are wasting our time debating this.

If we had talented players, XO wouldn’t be a piece of dirt on the wings of a fly on a pile of ****. He’s Jesse Wallin. He’s Maxim Kuznetsov. He’s a guy that you’re pissing up the wrong tree by complaining about him not playing.

Does XO have actual potential or do you want him to because he’s younger than 25. Does he do anything especially well? Is his skating ever going to become good enough to not be a liability? Or is he simply a somewhat more effective Brian Lashoff?

 

[Shaman464]

Even with where they are... I don’t want a guy like XO to get minutes by default. If he’s not good enough to be better at hockey than Nick Jensen, Trevor Daley nearing the end of his career, Injured Jonathan Ericsson, etc... he’s not very ****ing good and we are wasting our time debating this.

If we had talented players, XO wouldn’t be a piece of dirt on the wings of a fly on a pile of ****. He’s Jesse Wallin. He’s Maxim Kuznetsov. He’s a guy that you’re pissing up the wrong tree by complaining about him not playing.

Does XO have actual potential or do you want him to because he’s younger than 25. Does he do anything especially well? Is his skating ever going to become good enough to not be a liability? Or is he simply a somewhat more effective Brian Lashoff?

Well sitting him in the presser every night really gave us a great idea what he's worth! Oh wait. The team can afford to take risks. Daley wasn't a make or break player. On a talented team he was and is a bottom pairing guy. The issue isn't XO per se, its the idea that Holland is still in the mindset that a known is better than an unknown. And that's great on a team that is competing on a high level, but when the knowns are players like Daley on a team that is order of magnitude more likely to compete for a lottery pick not a cup, then taking risks is okay.

 

[Ezekial]

Why is it Daley vs XO, Kronwall and Ericsson played way more games than the organization probably thought they would.

Jensen, XO, Lashoff, and Hicketts/Renouf/McIlrath didn't seem like something they wanted to make a possibility, which could've been if they decided to go with what they had.

Now you guys may be cool with that, but management isn't. I think knowing they get that much work out of Kronner and E they might not have signed Daley.
Let's be real here, as little as I wanted or still want Daley, he isn't making too much for too long and will probably be able to be traded at some point.

 

[Pavels Dog]

But what does Daley actually bring? Its not like he was the difference between being a lottery team or not. Maybe he was the difference between being 5th and 3rd worst. But at that point who cares? The biggest difference between those is that 3rd worst gets better odds at a stud defenseman. I think what Redder is getting at is where the Wings are at right now they can afford to give a kid like XO a shot at real NHL minutes and see if he can finally pull it together, because the alternative, Daley, isn't going to be the piece that makes or breaks the season.

I find it weird and interesting that Holland gets criticized for trying to improve the D, however marginally, just as much as he’s criticized if he doesn’t.

Daley doesn’t ”do” much for us, but a better D is still better for us than a worse one who is younger. I definitely take Daley in the mix with Cholo/Hronek/Hicketts over XO. Goal is to get better, not just younger.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Really? That's why he signed Daley? That sounds ludicrous and fully speculation on your part. But okay.

Of course he talked up playoff hockey in the new arena, was he or anyone else involved in the franchise supposed to confess that sucking night in and night out is the goal for the new arena?

No one in ownership made him do anything? Maybe they did not make him, as in give an ultimatum or hold a gun to his head, but it is very narrow and naive to assume that ownership was not on board or signing off on every major move he made. It's equally obtuse to think that ownership was not extremely proud of that playoff streak and wanted it to continue.

Whether he truly believed he had a playoff team or whether that was more media lip service to excite the general fan base, who can say? He publicly says now that we are not a playoff team for a few years most likely, I'm not sure if him uttering those words at the beginning of last season changes anything in regards to his deadline moves and I certainly don't see Trevor Daley as standing in the way of a rebuild.

I'm not a huge Holland fan and I would have been fine if the organization went a different direction, but some of the remarks here just deny common sense and are way too black and white to be realistic, yet they crop up again and again.

I think the most likely scenario that played out went something like this.

"We just missed the playoffs for the first time in 25 years. Adding an experienced defenseman with a couple of cups should help stabilize the blue line and help push Detroit to the other side of the bubble."

Kenny treated their first playoff miss as a one off and thought Daley was going to be the difference.

Kenny mortgaging the future so that he could keep the streak going for a few extra years was all on Kenny. The Ilitch family gave Holland complete autonomy and only got involved when Kenny thought it would help. Like when Mike Ilitch tried to recruit Suter.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Well sitting him in the presser every night really gave us a great idea what he's worth! Oh wait. The team can afford to take risks. Daley wasn't a make or break player. On a talented team he was and is a bottom pairing guy. The issue isn't XO per se, its the idea that Holland is still in the mindset that a known is better than an unknown. And that's great on a team that is competing on a high level, but when the knowns are players like Daley on a team that is order of magnitude more likely to compete for a lottery pick not a cup, then taking risks is okay.

Reasonable points, but when the reward is “maybe you get a workable #4D if he hits” for the risk you are taking... what’s the point? Does XO or Jensen or Hicketts have a ceiling worth it to toss them out there or is it “we suck anyway, might as well”

“Might as well or they can’t do any worse” is a god awful way to manage anything. If XO is too slow, he will never amount to anything no matter how much time you give him. Like Ryan Sproul was never going to come around defensively or Adam Almqvist was always going to be too small.

You can talk a good game about taking risks, but if the reward is so low that it doesn’t really move the needle for you if it hits then why are you doing it?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

It’s generic problem solving. You don’t change everything all at once because then if it fails, you won’t know why it failed or vice versa.

 

[Claypool]

Kenny mortgaging the future so that he could keep the streak going for a few extra years was all on Kenny.

What future did he mortgage?

 

[Redder Winger]

No problem with a bit of skepticism. It's a national pastime over here. Just frustrated because every time out rather inarticulate GM opens his mouth, the goalposts shift subtly to allow more bashing of the guy or some people imply he's fundamentally dishonest or incompetent or it descends into more rubbish about how we should have rebuilt in 2010 etc etc.

Every second thread on here for the last 3 or 4 years has turned into an attack on KH (and once again the 'apologists' line has emerged again as if we are talking about a military dictator), and it's unbelievably tiresome.

Every thread seemingly has the same 20 posters posting the same opinions about the same picks/deals/contracts and all used to slag off the GM.

This then makes those who think the GM is Ok-ish and hadn't been such a disaster despite obvious and fairly easy to agree on mistakes between 2012-2016 ish be made to feel like fanatical outliers simply because a balanced view is taken.

Do I think KH is the ideal candidate for a rebuild GM. No, but he might be reasonably good at it.

Did he make mistakes once we stopped being contenders? Yes.

Neither stops the majority of this press conference being a step in the right direction with some bold statements about future change that should leave us all feeling at least a little more optimistic

Did you watch the conference?
The sputtering old fool is nearly incomprehensible. He flipflops every 10 seconds, so he says something everyone will like.