Ken Holland End of Season Press Conference

[Bench]

I read some of the quotes on Twitter, the main thing I'm excited about is that he's finally admitting many of the flaws that this team has. The defense is old, we won't be a playoff team for a few more years etc...

He's finally coming around. Still, this is akin to claiming there's a natural disaster AFTER the meteor hit. There have been signs the impact was coming for years and he stood defiant, thinking he could navigate around it.

I want Kenny to prove me wrong. But I won't hold my breath.

 

[Winger98]

I like what he said but was being a little disingenuous regarding rebuilding sooner

I am not sure why rebuilding in 2015 solely means trading away datsyuk and Zetterberg.

I mean isn' he rebuilding now without doing those things?

Because if you're talking about a rebuild that entails finishing out of the playoffs and drafting high, you would have had to move at least one of them - and possibly both - to accomplish that. The 2015 team was playing well, and could have just as easily gotten past Tampa as lose to them. I don't blame Holland for not selling off at that point. The team is playing well, the East has always been a bit of a wide open conference...I get taking a shot there. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I get it.

I'd just be happier right now if we hadn't re-signed Helm (and preferably Gator).

 

[Bench]

I mean isn' he rebuilding now without doing those things?

If you're actually rebuilding you don't scramble to get Abdelkader, Helm, and Nielsen locked up to the last significant contract of their careers.

I'd just be happier right now if we hadn't re-signed Helm (and preferably Gator).

This guy gets it.

 

[InjuredChoker]

wings 2015 core hadn't won a thing without lidström. only elite player was datsyuk who was hobbled by injuries at the end of the season like he had been for about past 5 years.

when was the last time team won a cup that had it's best players age in mid-30s or so?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Because if you're talking about a rebuild that entails finishing out of the playoffs and drafting high, you would have had to move at least one of them - and possibly both - to accomplish that. The 2015 team was playing well, and could have just as easily gotten past Tampa as lose to them. I don't blame Holland for not selling off at that point. The team is playing well, the East has always been a bit of a wide open conference...I get taking a shot there. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I get it.

I'd just be happier right now if we hadn't re-signed Helm (and preferably Gator).

I do not believe that the only way to start rebuilding was to trade datsyuk or Zetterberg.

How about not resigning helm?
Not signing Nielsen to a lifetime contract?
Not signing Abby to a seven year deal?
Not trading rhe datsyuk contract when he knew stamkos said nope and just drafting fabro?

Their were some moves he could have made earlier that wouldn't have equalled tanking for 100pts.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

wings 2015 core hadn't won a thing without lidström. only elite player was datsyuk who was hobbled by injuries at the end of the season like he had been for about past 5 years.

when was the last time team won a cup that had it's best players age in mid-30s or so?

Boston of 2011 was pretty close with Chara and Thomas.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Boston of 2011 was pretty close with Chara and Thomas.

they and ducks are the closest one post-lockout. but even those two had top centers/forwards in their mid 20s.

 

[Bench]

Has anyone seen Thomas out of his bunker since?

 

[njx9]

Boston of 2011 was pretty close with Chara and Thomas.

Lucic, Krejci, Bergeron, and possibly Seguin (if you meant 11-12)?

 

[PullHard]

Yeah he is more upfront now that the team is clearly bad but a lot of still doesn't quite stick the landing when I hear it.

I appreciate him admitting the team isn't at a point to over ripen players, but then come out and say that doesn't mean he is going to just let kids on the team. Not because I agree with it, but because we know that is what is going to happen. It is actually true.

Agree with the sentiment that him using timelines to rationalize buying at the TDL when our core was ancient is pretty much utter garbage. I said in another thread recently that I can understand and appreciate what he was doing - giving this core group one last kick at the can. But at least admit now that it wasn't a strong move heading into the coming seasons. Just say it was out of respect to Zetterberg, Datsyuk, & Kronwall for their hard work to give them one last look at a playoff run and that it was the last hurrah. He is making it sound like just because the team hit 100 points it was a strong team that year.

Also like others have said, he is making it sound like just because the team hit 100 points and made playoffs that he couldn't "rebuild" immediately after that. The only really jarring "rebuild" type move that he has made up to this point is trading Tatar IMO. The other trades he has made was basically moving off non-NHL talent to people willing to gamble on those players like Smith and Jurco. So all he had to do was moves like that, but back a few years ago, and it would have at least helped remedy the situation a bit going into these last couple of seasons. No one is criticizing him for not trading Datsyuk in July of 2013. Just quit giving bottom 6 forwards albatross deals and flip the failed youth/ vet rentals for picks earlier.

Moving guys like Sheahan, Ott, Vanek, Kindl, Wilson, Mrazek, etc. help during a rebuild, they signal towards a rebuild, but the reality is that the core guys all are still here or went out on their own terms. It doesn't jive with the sentiment he is expressing in the presser about "rebuilding" earlier or later making no difference.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

The use of "compete" and "competitive" is a bit concerning to me. Is he going to be satisfied if the team can compete (make the playoffs) consistently? Later on does he discuss making the team a contender, or does he truly not believe in setting the bar as high as the team was pre-lockout and just post-lockout?

 

[Winger98]

I do not believe that the only way to start rebuilding was to trade datsyuk or Zetterberg.

How about not resigning helm?
Not signing Nielsen to a lifetime contract?
Not signing Abby to a seven year deal?
Not trading rhe datsyuk contract when he knew stamkos said nope and just drafting fabro?

Their were some moves he could have made earlier that wouldn't have equalled tanking for 100pts.

I literally mentioned two of those things, and all of them came after the 2015 season. And I'm not willing to sell Cholowski short right now for another prospect who hasn't sniffed the NHL.

 

[BinCookin]

First, it's not hindsight. People were saying "rebuild" and "not a contender" since at least 2015. You can't just keep saying hindsight.

Second, Babs has been colossally wrong before. His opinion on Brendan Smith for example, a guy who can't even keep a job on a non-playoff team. You can't say "But even Babcock!" as some sort of 100% can't be wrong argument killer.

He was wrong about being a contender. We almost won in 2015 against Tampa because Mrazek went god mode, which isn't something you can rely on. He shut out Tampa in 2 of our wins. He let us win a game where we got outshot more than 3 to 1.

That's not a series where we kept it as even as the results would indicate. You're right. Results aren't potential. And the underlying numbers of that series showed we weren't on TB's level, despite the results of a 3-4 series.

Not everything is so black and white. there is never really a specific year for each team to decide a rebuild. 100+ Point teams CAN win the Stanley cup. And many 120 Point teams do not win.

The roster was mediocre in 2015. That roster had zero potential. They were built to lose in the first round.

Lots of teams can look competent after only 40ish regular season games. Pointing to Detroit's record at the half way point doesn't prove anything.

The only revisionist history taking place here, is the belief that the 2015 roster had anything going for it. It was just more of the same, but one year older.

Just to be fair "mediocre" and "Zero-potential" are not the same.
Which team this year is a "built to lose first round???".
Which team in the playoffs this year is stupid and should have pulled a rebuild move like the NYR??
I mean there are not 16 contenders right? So which teams?

If you're actually rebuilding you don't scramble to get Abdelkader, Helm, and Nielsen locked up to the last significant contract of their careers.

Everyone on this board agrees, Helm and Abby contract length is much much too long.
We have debated AAV, but clearly we all agree Helm and Abby on 3-year deals would have been much preferred.
their length was insane.

The use of "compete" and "competitive" is a bit concerning to me. Is he going to be satisfied if the team can compete (make the playoffs) consistently? Later on does he discuss making the team a contender, or does he truly not believe in setting the bar as high as the team was pre-lockout and just post-lockout?

What word defines "contender"
what word defines competitive.

We all have different definitions of these words. Maybe we should define some more specific terminology.

Example: top7 team (means you are top 7 teams in points) (defines contenders maybe)
would also mean 9 teams in the playoffs are not really contenders.
What do we call those teams?
How do we define the difference. Seems important as we argue about this stuff all the time.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

What word defines "contender"
what word defines competitive.

We all have different definitions of these words. Maybe we should define some more specific terminology.

Example: top7 team (means you are top 7 teams in points) (defines contenders maybe)
would also mean 9 teams in the playoffs are not really contenders.
What do we call those teams?
How do we define the difference. Seems important as we argue about this stuff all the time.

I am using the terms based on how Holland has characterized them in previous interviews and discussions.

Competitive comes across as "making the playoffs where everyone has a shot."
Contender comes across as "you are one of the top teams and one of the few favorites to win it."

I don't think that distinction is terribly controversial, and that is what concerns me about Holland's use of the word competitive. If he just wants to set the bar at making the playoffs and winning a series or two, that is a problem. If he wants to set the bar high to where he looks to assemble a roster that year in and year out is considered one of the best shots to win it, then I am on board and hope he can do the right things to make it happen.

 

[Pavels Dog]

First, it's not hindsight. People were saying "rebuild" and "not a contender" since at least 2015. You can't just keep saying hindsight.

Tbh I don't remember much of that discussion happening that season. I mean everyone KNEW we needed young talent to replace Dats/Z/Kronner, but that year we had just drafted Larkin who was tearing up the NCAA, Mrazek looked legit, Nyquist and Tatar were our top scorers, Sheahan and Jurco looked competent, Dekeyser was a 30+ point d-man... we had a pretty awesome mix in the lineup, especially when Franzen was healthy or just after Cole had been acquired.

There was legit hope that year. Of course there was also pessimisim and again, we knew aging players would need to be replaced somehow. But it doesn't change that the team was very good that year. Only hindsight changes that. I'd be f*cking ecstatic if we come through a rebuild looking as good as that 14-15 team.

He was wrong about being a contender. We almost won in 2015 against Tampa because Mrazek went god mode, which isn't something you can rely on. He shut out Tampa in 2 of our wins. He let us win a game where we got outshot more than 3 to 1.

That's not a series where we kept it as even as the results would indicate. You're right. Results aren't potential. And the underlying numbers of that series showed we weren't on TB's level, despite the results of a 3-4 series.

And the underlying numbers would have meant absolutely nothing if we had won the series. Wings never lost a playoff series while having better underlying numbers? Underlying numbers are kinda garbage in the playoffs tbh.

Second, Babs has been colossally wrong before. His opinion on Brendan Smith for example, a guy who can't even keep a job on a non-playoff team. You can't say "But even Babcock!" as some sort of 100% can't be wrong argument killer.

What.. how was he wrong? This board had people constantly bashing Babcock for not giving Smith top pairing minutes or PP duties. Babcock was absolutely right about Smith. Smith was garbage and never deserved more time than he got. It was this board that was wrong on Smith. This you'd need to explain because I think you have to be coming from some parallel universe here where Smith wasn't constantly in Babs' doghouse.

Lots of teams can look competent after only 40ish regular season games. Pointing to Detroit's record at the half way point doesn't prove anything.

Try 50ish or 60ish games, i.e. the majority of the season. And they didn't look "competent", they were competing for top spots in the division, rocking the best PP in the league, icing a lineup that looked the best it had since probably 2009. Again, total rewrite of history. Healthy Cole, healthy Glendening, no suspension to Kronwall.. any of these things could have tipped the 1st round in our favor and after that who knows? So f*cking easy to say in hindsight that we had no chance.

The use of "compete" and "competitive" is a bit concerning to me. Is he going to be satisfied if the team can compete (make the playoffs) consistently? Later on does he discuss making the team a contender, or does he truly not believe in setting the bar as high as the team was pre-lockout and just post-lockout?

He said "the rebuild is over when you lift the cup", also I believe he was asked something about getting back to contention and replied by asking what that is which seemed to stump the interviewer. Much like this board, no one seems able to answer what a contender is. How many teams in the playoffs right now are contender? 2? 4? 6? 10? 16? We know from opinions here that not all 100 point teams are contenders. We also know that an 8 seed can win the cup. How do you know if you're a contender or not until you win the cup?

 

[Run the Jewels]

Yo Kenny, welcome to 2012! #5 just announced his retirement. Are you going to retire alongside him? No? Really? It seems like you said you would. I'm guessing that's why Steve Yzerman left for Tampa.

OK then, now might be a good time to go with a youth movement and start trading your impending UFAs to stockpile draft picks.

 

[BinCookin]

Fair enough. I think he very clearly stated he wants to be a contender.

I think he is using compete and competitive in a different sense.

I think Arizona was non-competitive this year. It was out of the playoffs in the first 2 months. theey were being blown out.
I think their team lacks something. Maybe they need 1-2 more vets for their kids? Maybe their kids just suck in general?

Who is supposed to teach Dvorak, Domi, and Keller how to play smartly? Stepan?

there is something to be said about "competing" which builds the right kind of mentality for young players.

I think Holland says compete in the sense of "We could have won this game".

Even on our worst stretch of the season 10 game losing streak... I would say our team didn't collapse and give up on any game.
I think that is important.

People also asked him alot about time-lines. And the real answer is... he has no idea.
It all depends.
When will Rasmussen perform. When will Cholowski or Hronek make the top 4 (if ever)
Will Bertuzzi/Mantha/AA/Larkin keep improving.
How much will the vets decline.
I think he said it could be as soon as 1-2 years where the team makes it back to the playoffs, or it could be 7-8 years.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Tbh I don't remember much of that discussion happening that season. I mean everyone KNEW we needed young talent to replace Dats/Z/Kronner, but that year we had just drafted Larkin who was tearing up the NCAA, Mrazek looked legit, Nyquist and Tatar were our top scorers, Sheahan and Jurco looked competent, Dekeyser was a 30+ point d-man... we had a pretty awesome mix in the lineup, especially when Franzen was healthy or just after Cole had been acquired.

There was legit hope that year. Of course there was also pessimisim and again, we knew aging players would need to be replaced somehow. But it doesn't change that the team was very good that year. Only hindsight changes that. I'd be f*cking ecstatic if we come through a rebuild looking as good as that 14-15 team.


And the underlying numbers would have meant absolutely nothing if we had won the series. Wings never lost a playoff series while having better underlying numbers? Underlying numbers are kinda garbage in the playoffs tbh.


What.. how was he wrong? This board had people constantly bashing Babcock for not giving Smith top pairing minutes or PP duties. Babcock was absolutely right about Smith. Smith was garbage and never deserved more time than he got. It was this board that was wrong on Smith. This you'd need to explain because I think you have to be coming from some parallel universe here where Smith wasn't constantly in Babs' doghouse.


Try 50ish or 60ish games, i.e. the majority of the season. And they didn't look "competent", they were competing for top spots in the division, rocking the best PP in the league, icing a lineup that looked the best it had since probably 2009. Again, total rewrite of history. Healthy Cole, healthy Glendening, no suspension to Kronwall.. any of these things could have tipped the 1st round in our favor and after that who knows? So f*cking easy to say in hindsight that we had no chance.


He said "the rebuild is over when you lift the cup", also I believe he was asked something about getting back to contention and replied by asking what that is which seemed to stump the interviewer. Much like this board, no one seems able to answer what a contender is. How many teams in the playoffs right now are contender? 2? 4? 6? 10? 16? We know from opinions here that not all 100 point teams are contenders. We also know that an 8 seed can win the cup. How do you know if you're a contender or not until you win the cup?

Good post, but I take issue with the bolded section. I don't think there was much hope for that team, particularly for the future of that team, the writing really was on the wall by then. We were a pretty good team in 2015, but everyone here knew that team was quickly trending downward toward mediocrity or below. Our GM should have known that as well, and he probably did. I still see the playoff streak as the driving goal to the ownership/management not getting on board with a rebuild sooner than they did, not that fact that we had an aging team reach the 100 point mark.

I'd be very pleased with a team as good as that 14-15 team also - provided it is a team on the upswing toward greater success, not a team that plateaus at the 14-15 level or a team that is trending downward like that 14-15 team was clearly doing.

 

[njx9]

Who is supposed to teach Dvorak, Domi, and Keller how to play smartly?

Does Arizona not employ a coaching staff? Or did they need to pay several more Shane Doans significantly more than they were worth to "teach" a bunch of kids... err... something? Clearly the problem in 'Zona was not stocking their roster with mediocre veterans like Nielsen and Daley who could've led them to the 5th worst record, rather than the 3rd worst.

This veteran 'leadership' nonsense is getting sillier every time it gets repeated.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

He said "the rebuild is over when you lift the cup", also I believe he was asked something about getting back to contention and replied by asking what that is which seemed to stump the interviewer. Much like this board, no one seems able to answer what a contender is. How many teams in the playoffs right now are contender? 2? 4? 6? 10? 16? We know from opinions here that not all 100 point teams are contenders. We also know that an 8 seed can win the cup. How do you know if you're a contender or not until you win the cup?

I think plenty of people answer, but many who defend Holland don't address those things very well so the discussion about contention dies or gets sidetracked.

As far as contenders this season, I would put Nashville, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Washington, and maybe a couple others as sure fire contenders. That is the kind of team I want the Red Wings to be. Not in terms of roster makeup but just perception and expectations. I know there will be disagreements as to why or which teams, but there should be a lot of overlap. This is why I made a thread regarding this discussion. I think most have a general idea of contention but I don't think every fan needs or wants that to be satisfied with the team.

 

[Go Wings]

I feel like people are twisting themselves into knots to find the negatives in this press conference.

He very clearly stated he wants 2-4 new young players on the team next year:
I.e. Svechnikov, Rasmussen, Hicketts. (maybe the top 3 pick this year).

He is basically admitting they are in a rebuild.
Should we put Cholowski in the NHL if he is not ready?
Should we put Hronek in the NHL if he is not ready?

btw toronto was one of those teams that assembled a roster of all 25 year olds like 6-7 years ago. (Burke). they failed pretty hard. I think this is what he is thinking of when he says you need some role models.

Let me ask you this simple question how does one know when a player is ready to play in the NHL?

Here is the answer: by playing said player in the NHL and evaluating how they do.

The only way to know that Hronek and Cholowski are ready is to play them some games and see how they do.

Every year there are a good deal of players who no onr thought were ready playing in the NHL and exceling also the exact opposite.

Play Hronek and Cholowski a few games and see what happens.

 

[Flowah]

Not everything is so black and white. there is never really a specific year for each team to decide a rebuild. 100+ Point teams CAN win the Stanley cup. And many 120 Point teams do not win.

And not every team with 100+ points is a contender.

Our defense was bad. There's no denying it. It wasn't a contender's group. The forwards were okay, especially with Datsyuk. But that's always been the case. Our forwards drafting and forwards group has been more talented than our defensive drafting/group since Lidstrom left.

And the underlying numbers would have meant absolutely nothing if we had won the series. Wings never lost a playoff series while having better underlying numbers? Underlying numbers are kinda garbage in the playoffs tbh.

You have to decide whether you think results or underlying numbers are more important to you. Because first you said "our underlying numbers were great!" and then now you're saying "but the underlying numbers don't mean anything if we win!"

We weren't a contending team. Our numbers showed it. Our results showed it. Our roster showed it. That defensive group is not a contending team's defensive group.

This board had people constantly bashing Babcock for not giving Smith top pairing minutes or PP duties. Babcock was absolutely right about Smith. Smith was garbage and never deserved more time than he got.

Babs had made comments on how he had wanted Smith up sooner than he got him.

 

[Perfect Human]

He did a decent job in this presser. He does seem to have a vision and plan, albeit a year or two late.
I hadn't thought about the 2014-2015 season as a great season, but it seems that he and Babs thought there was hope and that the team could have made a playoff run. His point of after that season he didnt trade away futures is pretty solid too. Seems like maybe Babs had a bigger voice then he should and thats why we have Blash now?

 

[Redder Winger]

Because if you're talking about a rebuild that entails finishing out of the playoffs and drafting high, you would have had to move at least one of them - and possibly both - to accomplish that. The 2015 team was playing well, and could have just as easily gotten past Tampa as lose to them. I don't blame Holland for not selling off at that point. The team is playing well, the East has always been a bit of a wide open conference...I get taking a shot there. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I get it.

I'd just be happier right now if we hadn't re-signed Helm (and preferably Gator).

I dont' mind they signed those guys.
But not at the salary/term they were signed to.

If Helm gets 3x3 instead of 5x4, I'm satisfied.
If Abdelkader gets 3x3.5,I'm happy with it.

But the utter predictablity of these awful contracts is what's maddening. You KNEW they were coming.
Everyone KNEW they were coming.
It was like Holland had no other choice.

 

[Retire91]

Many people on this board started growing concerned with his strategy immediately after the last cup, filling the top line and special teams with other team's discarded veterans, being a buyer at the deadline when you are not a contender, trading picks and prospects for mediocre roster players, tie goes to the vet mentality, continually resigning liability players with loyalty contracts, handing out lifetime deals to mediocre players, etc...

There has been little to no concrete action on a rebuild that was clearly needed . Not gonna give the guy 'credit' that he is 'saying' the right thing in a post season interview when he hasn't been 'doing' the right things for how long now? Exactly what credit does this guy deserve outside of the first half of his career?

It's just funny that every season people are like oh this sounds good its just 2 years too late. 2 years? This has been going on since like 2010.