Player Discussion Alzner

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G0bias

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Weber in himself is a pretty mobile D, he didn't had trouble skating with anybody in this league this past season, despite playing with ****ing Emelin. Just because he don't carry the puck don't mean he don't have good mobility.

He even gave a ****ing rough times to the very quick William Nylander.

He did have trouble. That pairing was a black hole at generating anything beyond our goal line. And subsequently dragged down every line's 5v5 numbers they were paired with.

Not for no reason they had to put old legs Markov back up there.
 
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Adam Michaels

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He did have trouble. That pairing was a black hole at generating anything beyond our goal line. And subsequently dragged down every line's 5v5 numbers they were paired with.

Not for no reason they had to put old legs Markov back up there.

They didn't put Markov with him because Weber's game dropped. It was Emelin who was no longer able to keep up.
 

Hoople

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Mar 7, 2011
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Here's the problem with that analysis. We already have ample evidence that:

1) Weber's offensive game doesn't benefit from defensive defensemen. Weber (and the entire team's) offense was putrid when he was stuck with Emelin as a partner. And lest anyone use the excuse that Emelin sucks (assuming Alzner is much better), it was very much the same story the year before in the short amount of time he was separated from Josi. We know Weber. He's at his best when he has PMD partner. Josi, Suter, etc. Alzner isn't going to free Weber fundamentally change the way he has always played the game and take more chances than he usually does in the offensive zone. Especially since...

2) Alzner kills offense from his partners. Whether its been with Carlson or Niskanen or Green, Alzner has always dragged down the offense of his partner and their ability to apply pressure in the offensive zone. He'll be 29 at the beginning of the season and its even more ludicrous to expect him to change his game than it is to expect Weber to change his.

Also, Alzner and Weber have good first pass conversion percentages because they make the safe play. And in Alzner's case in particular its because he rarely makes the 1st pass out of the zone. His 1st pass is to his partner. They're good at exiting the zone, but that doesn't mean that the plays they start are going at gaining the offensive zone. Safe plays out lead to less space for forwards by design. Fewer odd-man rushes, less creating havok in the offensive zone and less zone entries. This has been by Bergevin's design and is a big part of his Canadiens. Safe plays at the expense of offense. Its not an approach I agree with, but its clearly the approach Bergevin wants to take.

Do you remember the good old days?

When the Habs DMen were firing those stretch passes that almost always ended up as a turnover or at worst, a forward for the Habs in the scary one on two against the other team?

Or how about the patented PK flip to no one (well, the other team) at the red line? The puck always had great hang time. A beauty. And I would be remiss to not include the PK puck rush with the Habs forwards standing still because no one knew what he was going to do with the puck, even though most knew it was going to be PK vs 5 defenders once he crossed the blue line.

Or the wonderful Markov hard around the boards for an icing. Emelin was pretty good at those as well.

If you miss those, then you miss a Habs team that failed a lot. As for me, I would prefer to see a Habs team that is efficient with the short passing game. Starting with the DMan making a short first pass to an open man in a structured breakout from the zone.

Fast break firehouse Habs hockey hasn't worked.
 

DangerDave

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He did have trouble. That pairing was a black hole at generating anything beyond our goal line. And subsequently dragged down every line's 5v5 numbers they were paired with.

Not for no reason they had to put old legs Markov back up there.

The issue was never Weber. Weber's play did take a dip for whatever reason but I never thought he was bad for any stretch of time. Emelin on the other hand was absolutely terrible and he looked even worst when separated from Weber.

That said, id rather not have alzner and Weber together. Their styles don't mesh well. Alzner and Petry could be nice though
 

DramaticGloveSave

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Apr 17, 2017
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The beauty of Weber is that Weber can play with anyone and adjust his game to make it work. He could definitely play with Alzner. Or Jerabek (if he's ready). Or Schlemko. Or Whoever....
 

DramaticGloveSave

Voice of Reason
Apr 17, 2017
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Is this guy supposed to replace Markov?

If Markov doesn't return...

Alzner will replace Markovs minutes even strength. He's not going to replace Markov on the PP though, I believe Drouin is going to be the first team PP QB like he was in Tampa. (Lightning led the league in PP goals FYI)
 

Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
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Do you remember the good old days?

When the Habs DMen were firing those stretch passes that almost always ended up as a turnover or at worst, a forward for the Habs in the scary one on two against the other team?

That's because Therrien liked to stretch the ice, it was a problem last season too. Has nothing to do with the personnel.

Or how about the patented PK flip to no one (well, the other team) at the red line? The puck always had great hang time. A beauty. And I would be remiss to not include the PK puck rush with the Habs forwards standing still because no one knew what he was going to do with the puck, even though most knew it was going to be PK vs 5 defenders once he crossed the blue line.

Again, this is because: a) Therrien never liked D skating the puck out; and b) PK is not different from guys like Karlsson, Doughty, Keith, Letang, etc. in regards to skating the puck out or flipping it out. Therrien never figured out how to transition properly.

Or the wonderful Markov hard around the boards for an icing. Emelin was pretty good at those as well.

Weber does this just as much as Markov. And don't expect any different from Alzner.

If you miss those, then you miss a Habs team that failed a lot. As for me, I would prefer to see a Habs team that is efficient with the short passing game. Starting with the DMan making a short first pass to an open man in a structured breakout from the zone.

Fast break firehouse Habs hockey hasn't worked.

Therrien's system demanded the suicide passes out though. It has nothing to do with the personnel. And maintain that structure either requires D-men that can carry the puck effectively or Centers that can carry the puck effectively. Preferably both. And Montreal doesn't have either right now.

The beauty of Weber is that Weber can play with anyone and adjust his game to make it work. He could definitely play with Alzner. Or Jerabek (if he's ready). Or Schlemko. Or Whoever....

This is demonstrably not true. Weber's whole appeal was the simplicity of his game and that he doesn't deviate much off of it. Its why Nashville always stuck him with a PMD.
 
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Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
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lol how?

Nashville only had PMDs to play with him.

They very clearly didn't, they just saw what a mistake playing him with Cube, Hannan or even Jones was. Come on, We have so much information on Weber. We know his strengths and weaknesses. He is not a guy that can carry any D partner. He's a guy that will provide responsible defense, a booming shot, and not really drive play.
 
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WeThreeKings

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Sep 19, 2006
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lol how?

Nashville only had PMDs to play with him.

They had to put PMDs with him because he has no hands, can't skate with the puck and is brutal at passing.

I would bank on a three year old kid grabbing a stuffed panda from an arcade machine with the hydraulic hook before I would bank on Weber successfully stickhandling out of his own zone.
 

Sorinth

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Jan 18, 2013
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Here's the problem with that analysis. We already have ample evidence that:

1) Weber's offensive game doesn't benefit from defensive defensemen. Weber (and the entire team's) offense was putrid when he was stuck with Emelin as a partner. And lest anyone use the excuse that Emelin sucks (assuming Alzner is much better), it was very much the same story the year before in the short amount of time he was separated from Josi. We know Weber. He's at his best when he has PMD partner. Josi, Suter, etc. Alzner isn't going to free Weber fundamentally change the way he has always played the game and take more chances than he usually does in the offensive zone. Especially since...

2) Alzner kills offense from his partners. Whether its been with Carlson or Niskanen or Green, Alzner has always dragged down the offense of his partner and their ability to apply pressure in the offensive zone. He'll be 29 at the beginning of the season and its even more ludicrous to expect him to change his game than it is to expect Weber to change his.

Also, Alzner and Weber have good first pass conversion percentages because they make the safe play. And in Alzner's case in particular its because he rarely makes the 1st pass out of the zone. His 1st pass is to his partner. They're good at exiting the zone, but that doesn't mean that the plays they start are going at gaining the offensive zone. Safe plays out lead to less space for forwards by design. Fewer odd-man rushes, less creating havok in the offensive zone and less zone entries. This has been by Bergevin's design and is a big part of his Canadiens. Safe plays at the expense of offense. Its not an approach I agree with, but its clearly the approach Bergevin wants to take.

This is pretty much what I expect from the whole team. Under Julien there should be much more structure to our breakouts and the forwards will provide much better puck support. This will enable us to exit the zone much better then under Therrien despite losing basically all our PMD.

The downside to this however is that by exiting the zone as a 5 man unit, you are giving the other team the chance to organise defensively and increase the likelihood that you will need to dump and chase to gain the zone. That said hopefully Julien will allow our forwards a little more freedom on zone entries then Therrien did. Both Galchenyuk and Drouin and stick handle their way into the zone and so should be given the freedom to do that.

As a whole this probably means 5on5 we are playing for a 0-0 game, and trying to win it on special teams. Which will make for some boring hockey but can be effective in winning games, though it's not the style/direction I would like.
 
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Sorinth

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That's the point. Weber depends on his partner to break it out or else that pair struggles, which they did. Hence Markov.

Which means instead we will need to have a forward provide close support so that Weber/Alzner can make a short pass to the forward for the breakout.
 

Captain Mountain

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Which means instead we will need to have a forward provide close support so that Weber/Alzner can make a short pass to the forward for the breakout.

Which slows down forward movement, allows the other team to close gaps and isolate forwards, and forces forwards to either beat defenders 1-on-1 or 1-on-2 or create space through stretch passes or dump ins.

Even with CJs 5-man units you need the threat to stretch the ice to effectively move the puck.
 
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Sorinth

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Which slows down forward movement, allows the other team to close gaps and isolate forwards, and forces forwards to either beat defenders 1-on-1 or 1-on-2 or create space through stretch passes or dump ins.

Even with CJs 5-man units you need the threat to stretch the ice to effectively move the puck.

Agreed, which is why our problems are more likely to be zone entries then zone exits.

On the plus side we do have the forwards with speed that can threaten the defence with stretch passes. So even if our defence group is not good at making those types of passes, the other team's D can't just leave guys like Pacioretty/Byron/Drouin behind them thinking our D can't/won't make that pass. So the threat is still there, and the other team will still have to respect it. It's just we won't actually capitalise on it very often.
 

G0bias

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Oct 4, 2007
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Which means instead we will need to have a forward provide close support so that Weber/Alzner can make a short pass to the forward for the breakout.


Agreed, which is why our problems are more likely to be zone entries then zone exits.

Which then means zone entries being a problem is more of a by-product of the forwards compensating for weak transition by the D than anything else.

In the end its just putting a band-aid on a broken leg.
 
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Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
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Agreed, which is why our problems are more likely to be zone entries then zone exits.

On the plus side we do have the forwards with speed that can threaten the defence with stretch passes. So even if our defence group is not good at making those types of passes, the other team's D can't just leave guys like Pacioretty/Byron/Drouin behind them thinking our D can't/won't make that pass. So the threat is still there, and the other team will still have to respect it. It's just we won't actually capitalise on it very often.

Other teams defencemen wont be the problem, it'll be back checking forwards that will cause issues for generating offense. If you have to rely on a forward to carry the puck or pass the puck (and without Petry, that is what will happen) then you're slowing transition down, allowing the other team to clog the neutral zone and force dump ins. The opposing D can still respect Montreal's forwards as threats, since their forwards will have the time to clog passing lanes.

At the end of the day, lack of PMDs is still a problem, and one that Bergevin has exacerbated the last couple of offseasons. Because he wants to minimize mistakes instead of creating a balance.
 
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Sorinth

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Which then means zone entries being a problem is more of a by-product of the forwards compensating for weak transition by the D than anything else.

In the end its just putting a band-aid on a broken leg.

Other teams defencemen wont be the problem, it'll be back checking forwards that will cause issues for generating offense. If you have to rely on a forward to carry the puck or pass the puck (and without Petry, that is what will happen) then you're slowing transition down, allowing the other team to clog the neutral zone and force dump ins. The opposing D can still respect Montreal's forwards as threats, since their forwards will have the time to clog passing lanes.

At the end of the day, lack of PMDs is still a problem, and one that Bergevin has exacerbated the last couple of offseasons. Because he wants to minimize mistakes instead of creating a balance.

Don't get me wrong, a lack of PMD is one of if not our biggest issues (I'd put it ahead of our center issues) and getting rid of all our PMD these past 2 years was dumb. We are seemingly trying to follow an outdated philosophy which is never good.

That said, zone entries have been a problem for quite some time now, even when we had Markov/Subban our transition wasn't where it should've been due to Therrien's system (Or lack thereof). I expect it to be bad again this year but for different reasons. I don't think it will be necessarily worse then in previous years, but it was a problem then, and it's a problem now.
 
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Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
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Don't get me wrong, a lack of PMD is one of if not our biggest issues (I'd put it ahead of our center issues) and getting rid of all our PMD these past 2 years was dumb. We are seemingly trying to follow an outdated philosophy which is never good.

That said, zone entries have been a problem for quite some time now, even when we had Markov/Subban our transition wasn't where it should've been due to Therrien's system (Or lack thereof). I expect it to be bad again this year but for different reasons. I don't think it will be necessarily worse then in previous years, but it was a problem then, and it's a problem now.

I'd lean towards worse now since before it was a coaching problem, now its a personnel problem. Easier to replace the coach than the D.

One the plus side, GMs still don't know how to effectively value defensemen. On the downside, Bergevin may one of the worst offenders in that regard.
 

VladTheLimpWhaler

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They had to put PMDs with him because he has no hands, can't skate with the puck and is brutal at passing.

I would bank on a three year old kid grabbing a stuffed panda from an arcade machine with the hydraulic hook before I would bank on Weber successfully stickhandling out of his own zone.

Nicely said. 10/10 for writing style, but unfortunately 0/10 for truth. Why do you have to exaggerate his weaknesses? Come on now. Here's Weber burning the fastest skater on Montreal:


ThirdInsignificantGorilla-size_restricted.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThirdInsignificantGorilla-mobile.mp4
 

Sorinth

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I'd lean towards worse now since before it was a coaching problem, now its a personnel problem. Easier to replace the coach than the D.

One the plus side, GMs still don't know how to effectively value defensemen. On the downside, Bergevin may one of the worst offenders in that regard.

True the situation is worse in the sense it's no longer as easy to fix and that's all on Bergevin's ineptitude. But on ice I don't think it's going to be much better/worse.
 

G0bias

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Don't get me wrong, a lack of PMD is one of if not our biggest issues (I'd put it ahead of our center issues) and getting rid of all our PMD these past 2 years was dumb. We are seemingly trying to follow an outdated philosophy which is never good.

That said, zone entries have been a problem for quite some time now, even when we had Markov/Subban our transition wasn't where it should've been due to Therrien's system (Or lack thereof). I expect it to be bad again this year but for different reasons. I don't think it will be necessarily worse then in previous years, but it was a problem then, and it's a problem now.

due to Therrien's system (Or lack thereof)

That pretty much sums it up, does it not?

Our transition was a hell of alot better with Martin, who knew how to exploit PK/Markov, than it was with Therrien and he had better tools to work with. The players were fine then.

Only now I'd say, with Bergevin gutting the team's PMDs, is it a player-oriented problem.
 
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