Recalled/Assigned: Kapanen loaned to Marlies

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Did you forget we also acquired a 1st round pick in that trade that we later used to trade for Andersen or do you think Andersen hasn't made a meaningful contribution here?

Seems like a case of reaching for conspiracy to fit within ones perception rather than looking at the most obvious scenario.

 

[Mess]

Did you forget we also acquired a 1st round pick in that trade that we later used to trade for Andersen or do you think Andersen hasn't made a meaningful contribution here?

Leafs also gave the Pens a 2nd in the Kessel deal to get the 1st (30th overall) and then also added a 2nd in 2017 50th OA with the Pens 1st to get Andersen from Anaheim.

So Andersen essential cost an additional 2 X 2nd rounders.. Besides the Pens gave the Leafs the 30OA and the Leafs had the 31st OA (very next pick) for finishing last so they could just as easily have acquired Andersen for their own pick #31 OA and #50OA instead of #30 and #50 all from the same draft.

They didn't need to make the Kessel trade to get Andersen as they had their own picks to make that trade or are we saying the biggest piece of the Kessel deal was a player not involved directly in the Kessel deal?.

Leafs should have acquire MA Fleury from the Pens in the Kessel deal and then you would have a stronger case of getting a return.

So up to now Kapanen is the real piece they received in the deal so the incentive from the organization to get a return lies mainly on his shoulders. That benefits Kappy because Leafs management will likely give him more opportunities to succeed as a result to save face on that deal and show a real return. That is a good thing !!!!

 

[Gary Nylund]

Leafs also gave the Pens a 2nd in the Kessel deal to get the 1st (30th overall) and then also added a 2nd in 2017 50th OA with the Pens 1st to get Andersen from Anaheim.

So Andersen essential cost an additional 2 X 2nd rounders.. Besides the Pens gave the Leafs the 30OA and the Leafs had the 31st OA (very next pick) for finishing last so they could just as easily have acquired Andersen for their own pick #31 OA and #50OA instead of #30 and #50 all from the same draft.

They didn't need to make the Kessel trade to get Andersen as they had their own picks to make that trade.

There were other parts to the trade as well that you haven't mentioned but OK. The 2nd round pick we gave up was I believe the 60th overall, not a big deal in the overall scheme of things. And the fact that we had the 31th OA pick is completely irrelevant, we traded the 30th OA pick (and the 60th OA) for Andersen, end of story.

Andersen is probably our MVP so far this season and Andersen >>>>> Kapanen.

Sorry Mess, this narrative of yours that "Kappy is essentially the biggest part of the Kessel trade return" and "Leafs have very little to show for their side" and "Leafs organization would be loving to get some return on their investment" is way off. How anyone can say with a straight face that we have not gotten "some return" is completely beyond me.

From where I sit, considering the circumstances it looks like a good trade for both teams. And I wouldn't trade Andersen for Kessel either.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

There were other parts to the trade as well that you haven't mentioned but OK. The 2nd round pick we gave up was I believe the 60th overall, not a big deal in the overall scheme of things. And the fact that we had the 31th OA pick is completely irrelevant, we traded the 30th OA pick (and the 60th OA) for Andersen, end of story.

Andersen is probably our MVP so far this season and Andersen >>>>> Kapanen.

Sorry Mess, this narrative of yours that "Kappy is essentially the biggest part of the Kessel trade return" and "Leafs have very little to show for their side" and "Leafs organization would be loving to get some return on their investment" is way off. How anyone can say with a straight face that we have not gotten "some return" is completely beyond me.

From where I sit, considering the circumstances it looks like a good trade for both teams. And I wouldn't trade Andersen for Kessel either.

When we have all of Matthews, Nylander and Marner locked up long term, as well as having Rielly, Kadri and Andersen still on the books for a few years, we’ll see returns on selling Kessel at that point. That’s not even considering Kapanen, who will be in the big show soon enough.

 

[TOGuy14]

I understand why it happened, but really wish it didn't need to.

Kappy has looked sharp in the NHL and AHL for a couple seasons now. I'd like to give him an opportunity, maybe even in a second line capacity, to see what he can do.

For some reason I think he would make a great winger for Nylander if he were to move to C

 

[Mess]

I understand why it happened, but really wish it didn't need to.

Kappy has looked sharp in the NHL and AHL for a couple seasons now. I'd like to give him an opportunity, maybe even in a second line capacity, to see what he can do.

For some reason I think he would make a great winger for Nylander if he were to move to C

As long as Leafs have Marner, Nylander and Brown all ahead of Kappy at RW the best he can be is a 4th line player.

The only way the Leafs would get more value out of him and give him a bigger role is to relocate Nylander to C on his own line then the pieces fit better.

XXXX --- Matthews -- Marner
XXXX --- Kadri ---- Brown
XXXX --- Nylander -- Kapanen

Bozak departing as a UFA and maybe even JVR and Komarov will open more roster spots for players like Kapanen and Leivo to play regularly.

 

[PuckMagi]

As long as Leafs have Marner, Nylander and Brown all ahead of Kappy at RW the best he can be is a 4th line player.

The only way the Leafs would get more value out of him and give him a bigger role is to relocate Nylander to C on his own line then the pieces fit better.

XXXX --- Matthews -- Marner
XXXX --- Kadri ---- Brown
XXXX --- Nylander -- Kapanen

Bozak departing as a UFA and maybe even JVR and Komarov will open more roster spots for players like Kapanen and Leivo to play regularly.

would love to see those pairings going forward.

Next year, I'd like to see Andreas Johnsson with Matthews and Marner... Leivo with Kadri and Brown... and Marleau with Nylander and Kapanen. Hyman is 4th line RW.

 

[Stephen]

Leafs also gave the Pens a 2nd in the Kessel deal to get the 1st (30th overall) and then also added a 2nd in 2017 50th OA with the Pens 1st to get Andersen from Anaheim.

So Andersen essential cost an additional 2 X 2nd rounders.. Besides the Pens gave the Leafs the 30OA and the Leafs had the 31st OA (very next pick) for finishing last so they could just as easily have acquired Andersen for their own pick #31 OA and #50OA instead of #30 and #50 all from the same draft.

They didn't need to make the Kessel trade to get Andersen as they had their own picks to make that trade or are we saying the biggest piece of the Kessel deal was a player not involved directly in the Kessel deal?.

Leafs should have acquire MA Fleury from the Pens in the Kessel deal and then you would have a stronger case of getting a return.

So up to now Kapanen is the real piece they received in the deal so the incentive from the organization to get a return lies mainly on his shoulders. That benefits Kappy because Leafs management will likely give him more opportunities to succeed as a result to save face on that deal and show a real return. That is a good thing !!!!

This thought process is a little convoluted. Frederik Andersen is the most valuable player on the Leafs currently and working out exactly as designed. If he continues to give us this level of Vezina calibre goaltending, he's worth more than Kessel himself.

One thing I've always liked about the Leafs targeting Andersen is he's a big thick goalie with athleticism and puck handling ability. This doesn't seem like much on the surface of it, but Lamoriello has basically targeted this type of goalie/body type in the past with Martin Brodeur and Cory Schneider. One thing you'll notice is how adept these guys are at playing huge workhorse minutes as well as how they also help out the defense a lot with their ability to handle the puck.

Fleury is someone I liked as well, but he's a little older. If we want to take this to fantasy territory maybe we should have asked for Matt Murray before he distinguished himself.

 

[TOGuy14]

As long as Leafs have Marner, Nylander and Brown all ahead of Kappy at RW the best he can be is a 4th line player.

The only way the Leafs would get more value out of him and give him a bigger role is to relocate Nylander to C on his own line then the pieces fit better.

XXXX --- Matthews -- Marner
XXXX --- Kadri ---- Brown
XXXX --- Nylander -- Kapanen

Bozak departing as a UFA and maybe even JVR and Komarov will open more roster spots for players like Kapanen and Leivo to play regularly.

Like those lines as a template.

Would put Marleau with Matthews on the top line and maybe Hyman with Nylander + Kappy as the scrappy vet to be a "gud pro" and go into the corners for us.

 

[Mess]

This thought process is a little convoluted. Frederik Andersen is the most valuable player on the Leafs currently and working out exactly as designed. If he continues to give us this level of Vezina calibre goaltending, he's worth more than Kessel himself..

Andersen really didn't have anything to do in reality with the Kessel deal.

It wasn't even the same Leafs GMs involved.

Hunter/Dubas made the Kessel deal and then Lou Lam a year later used one of the assets obtain a draft pick towards acquiring Andersen. If anything you could argue Lou Lam may have salvaged the Kessel deal for the organization.

But that wasn't really my original point. I was suggesting since Kappy was the main piece of the Kessel trade, there is added organizational motivation to give him more opportunities to succeed. Case in point Andreas Johnsson in 26 games has 10-10-20 points, while Kappy has 17 games 8-5-13 points. How come Kappy keeps getting recalled but not Johnsson who might be playing better in the AHL?

 

[Stephen]

Andersen really didn't have anything to do in reality with the Kessel deal.

It wasn't even the same Leafs GMs involved.

Hunter/Dubas made the Kessel deal and then Lou Lam a year later used one of the assets obtain a draft pick towards acquiring Andersen. If anything you could argue Lou Lam may have salvaged the Kessel deal for the organization.

But that wasn't really my original point. I was suggesting since Kappy was the main piece of the Kessel trade, there is added organizational motivation to give him more opportunities to succeed. Case in point Andreas Johnsson in 26 games has 10-10-20 points, while Kappy has 17 games 8-5-13 points. How come Kappy keeps getting recalled but not Johnsson who might be playing better in the AHL?

I think you just have to look at a first round pick as currency. As I recall, the summer the Pens made that Kessel deal, they had also just finished barely in the playoffs and coughed up a pick in the mid teens (Barzal).

But yeah I agree they should play Kapanen more just to get him going in his career. Maybe they're doing it to keep his bridge deal cheap? I'd like to see if he can definitively join the core or should he be packaged as an asset for an upgrade elsewhere.

 

[Apotheosis]

As long as Leafs have Marner, Nylander and Brown all ahead of Kappy at RW the best he can be is a 4th line player.

The only way the Leafs would get more value out of him and give him a bigger role is to relocate Nylander to C on his own line then the pieces fit better.

XXXX --- Matthews -- Marner
XXXX --- Kadri ---- Brown
XXXX --- Nylander -- Kapanen

Bozak departing as a UFA and maybe even JVR and Komarov will open more roster spots for players like Kapanen and Leivo to play regularly.

And this is how it should be. What a top 9 that is, and that's without the fact that we still have Marleau, as well as guys like Johnsson, Leivo, Grundstrom and Korshkov.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Andersen really didn't have anything to do in reality with the Kessel deal.

It wasn't even the same Leafs GMs involved.

Hunter/Dubas made the Kessel deal and then Lou Lam a year later used one of the assets obtain a draft pick towards acquiring Andersen. If anything you could argue Lou Lam may have salvaged the Kessel deal for the organization.

But that wasn't really my original point. I was suggesting since Kappy was the main piece of the Kessel trade, there is added organizational motivation to give him more opportunities to succeed. Case in point Andreas Johnsson in 26 games has 10-10-20 points, while Kappy has 17 games 8-5-13 points. How come Kappy keeps getting recalled but not Johnsson who might be playing better in the AHL?

I wonder if there is more to consider than just point production.

 

[paulhiggins]

Perhaps the biggest organizational factor is that Kappy is essentially the biggest part of the Kessel trade return, and so while Phil continues to score on Cup winning teams Leafs have very little to show for their side of what looks like a very poor and lopsided deal for the organization when Hunter/Dubas were acting GMs.
...

The biggest return for Kessel was finishing last and getting Auston Matthews. Plus there was some addition by subtraction. Assests like Kappy and picks to get Andersen didn't hurt either. Lots to show for that trade.

 

[stickty111]

The Kessel trade was a good one and both teams benefited from it. Kapanen will be a solid top 6 forward, and we got our #1 goalie with one of those assets. Pens won the cup with Kessel(not bad for a coach killer, and someone who is afraid of his own shadow
To think that trade was lopsided in the Pens favor and rests on Kapanen's shoulders is completely wrong and stupid.
Plus every team loses trades now and then, "in Nonis we trust" movement lost almost every trade they made, and when your best trade is fixing a mistake by dumping a horrendous contract you gave, in exchange for a player who wont play for you(Clarkson trade), you know how much of a disaster it was. All though quite frankly, everything about that movement was a catastrophe
Every team also wins trades. Like how Hunter/Dubas won the Konecny trade by moving down in the draft for Dermott, Bracco and Dzierkals.

 

[hobarth]

I don't know why so many get their panties in a knot over Kappy?

It appears TO has 2 quality goalies in the A and both are putting up numbers that suggest they should be in the NHL, both have spent more time in the minors than Kappy.

 

[4thline]

And the fact that we had the 31th OA pick is completely irrelevant, we traded the 30th OA pick (and the 60th OA) for Andersen, end of story.
.

I disagree, that's an oversimplification. Having pick 31 means that we acquire Andersen whether or not the Kessel trade is made, making the true opportunity cost of making/ not making the trade having a pick left over after trading for Andersen.
I see the Kessel trade as Kapanen+Korshkov+Greenway+Rychel (Harringtion)+2018 3rd (Spaling). It was a long term deal for a good futures package that we're a long way from knowing the true value of. My only hindsight regret from that trade was that we got Harrington instead of Dumoulin. I have faith in Kappy and Korshkov to be contributors, Rychel is meh, but was a solid reclamation project, Greenway is a great toolsy swing at the fences, and we haven't even used the 3rd yet.

 

[Walshy7]

As long as Leafs have Marner, Nylander and Brown all ahead of Kappy at RW the best he can be is a 4th line player.

The only way the Leafs would get more value out of him and give him a bigger role is to relocate Nylander to C on his own line then the pieces fit better.

XXXX --- Matthews -- Marner
XXXX --- Kadri ---- Brown
XXXX --- Nylander -- Kapanen

Bozak departing as a UFA and maybe even JVR and Komarov will open more roster spots for players like Kapanen and Leivo to play regularly.

Kapanen has played many games on the LW on the marlies, and we are short there in terms of players who can score especially when JVR leaves

 

[IBeL34f]

Imagine how much people would be freaking out about our cap structure moving forward if we still had 4 and a half more seasons of $8M Kessel on the books.

Also, I believe it was Shanahan who orchestrated the Kessel trade, not Dubas or Hunter. There was a better article I'd found previously where Rutherford mentioned his back-and-forths with Shanahan, but I can't find it now.
Brendan Shanahan Addresses the Media on Phil Kessel Trade | Maple Leafs Hotstove

Regarding Kapanen, I'm not concerned about the time in the A - He's a long-term option for us, and someone that can step in as soon as one of our UFAs is moved out. Speed to burn, a hell of a shot, and a willingness to get into the corners and be responsible defensively. Even if he can't replace JVR's production, he brings elements that we could always use more of, and could help provide further offensive depth in the lineup if he's eased in.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I disagree, that's an oversimplification. Having pick 31 means that we acquire Andersen whether or not the Kessel trade is made, making the true opportunity cost of making/ not making the trade having a pick left over after trading for Andersen.
I see the Kessel trade as Kapanen+Korshkov+Greenway+Rychel (Harringtion)+2018 3rd (Spaling). It was a long term deal for a good futures package that we're a long way from knowing the true value of. My only hindsight regret from that trade was that we got Harrington instead of Dumoulin. I have faith in Kappy and Korshkov to be contributors, Rychel is meh, but was a solid reclamation project, Greenway is a great toolsy swing at the fences, and we haven't even used the 3rd yet.

Not sure why, seems factual to me.

Anyhow, if you want to look at Korshkov as part of the return for Kessel, that's perfectly fine too. My main point was that when Mess talked about Kapanen being the main piece we got for Kessel he didn't even mention that we also picked up a 1st round pick in the deal which is a huge omission IMO.

Also, you can't be sure we trade for Andersen even without that pick. I think it's likely but still, no way to be sure. When a butterfly flaps it's wings, there's just no telling what may happen.

 

[Mess]

I disagree, that's an oversimplification. Having pick 31 means that we acquire Andersen whether or not the Kessel trade is made, making the true opportunity cost of making/ not making the trade having a pick left over after trading for Andersen.
I see the Kessel trade as Kapanen+Korshkov+Greenway+Rychel (Harringtion)+2018 3rd (Spaling). It was a long term deal for a good futures package that we're a long way from knowing the true value of. My only hindsight regret from that trade was that we got Harrington instead of Dumoulin. I have faith in Kappy and Korshkov to be contributors, Rychel is meh, but was a solid reclamation project, Greenway is a great toolsy swing at the fences, and we haven't even used the 3rd yet.

I agree. Leafs were going to take Korshkov and so it really didn't matter if they gave Anaheim the #30 or #31 picks in the trade. Last pick of the 1st round or 1st of the second really make no difference here as long as both teams got the player they wanted.

The true opportunity cost of the Freddy Andersen deal is really the picks #30 (Sam Steel) and #50 (Maxime Comtois) both of whom are playing for Canada at the WJC and both scored yesterday against Slovakia.

However Andersen is almost irrelevant to my original point, in that since Kappy came as a big piece of the Kessel trade (when Leafs traded away their star offensive forward) then in order for the Leafs management to show a return on investment they're likely going to favour Kapanen and give him every opportunity to succeed ahead of other prospects, as that makes management look better in this translation. This is a good thing for Kappy as he has a leg up on other prospects and we should start seeing him get more chances to show what he can do. In fact part of the long-term plan might be to let JVR walk and fill his roster spot internally with Kapanen next year and use his cheaper contract to start to offset the bigger pending contracts of the big 3 coming out of their ELC.

 

[tokyoite]

This thread is about Kapanen. Why is everybody talking about Andersen is beyond me. hehe

 

[cupcrazyman]

Nothing wrong with spending time in the AHL. Our forward depth gives him the opportunity for lots of time while he's down there.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I agree. Leafs were going to take Korshkov and so it really didn't matter if they gave Anaheim the #30 or #31 picks in the trade. Last pick of the 1st round or 1st of the second really make no difference here as long as both teams got the player they wanted.

The true opportunity cost of the Freddy Andersen deal is really the picks #30 (Sam Steel) and #50 (Maxime Comtois) both of whom are playing for Canada at the WJC and both scored yesterday against Slovakia.

However Andersen is almost irrelevant to my original point, in that since Kappy came as a big piece of the Kessel trade (when Leafs traded away their star offensive forward) then in order for the Leafs management to show a return on investment they're likely going to favour Kapanen and give him every opportunity to succeed ahead of other prospects, as that makes management look better in this translation. This is a good thing for Kappy as he has a leg up on other prospects and we should start seeing him get more chances to show what he can do. In fact part of the long-term plan might be to let JVR walk and fill his roster spot internally with Kapanen next year and use his cheaper contract to start to offset the bigger pending contracts of the big 3 coming out of their ELC.

This seems cynical and there is zero to support this.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

This seems cynical and there is zero to support this.

I don't know Mess well enough to know who is favourite prospect here is that is getting "steamrolled" by Kapanen -- is it Leivo? This is the only reason I can see one grasping at such straws and indirection to avoid the possibility that Kapanen has just been the BPA to bring in for depth.

Or maybe he just really hated the Kessel trade when it happened, so he/she's determined to shit all over anything that came out of it?