Blue Jays Discussion: June 2017 Edition

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FearTheBeard

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Mar 27, 2011
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If he stinks cut bait with him.

I'm not exactly the world's biggest saunders fan but I don't see the harm in bringing him in here. I'd rather Smith Jr get consistent abs down in AAA if he's going to be riding the pine up here. He's not a veteran bench guy who can go weeks without playing time. If you're going to have Smith Jr up here you need to give some of these vets a day off once a week to get him proper playing time.

My point is that in house options are better than Michael Saunders. He isnt the answer
 

phillipmike

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Oct 27, 2009
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Who is on your top 3 list of all time slowest Jays? For me it's (from slowest to fastest):

Frank Thomas
Bengie Molina
Kendrys Morales

According to Fangraphs here are the worst BsRs in Jays history.

1. 2007 Frank Thomas -8.2
2. 2006 Lyle Overbay -6.6
3. 2013 Adam Lind -6.1
4. 1980 Alfredo Griffin -5.5
5. 2016 Jose Bautista -5.2
6. 2004 Carlos Delgado -5.1
7. 2017 Kendrys Morales -4.8
8. 2008 Lyle Overbay -4.6
9. 2015 Russell Martin -4.6
10. 2014 Melky Cabrera -3.8
11. 2014 Dioner Navarro -3.6
12. 2002 Carlos Delgado -3.5
13. 2017 Jose Bautista -3.4
14. 1987 Willie Upshaw -2.9
15. 2011 Yunel Escobar -2.9
16. 1981 Alfredo Griffin -2.8
17. 1983 Alfredo Griffin -2.8
18. 2016 Troy Tulowitzki -2.7
19. 1980 Damaso Garcia -2.6
20. 1978 Rick Bosetti -2.6
21. 2014 Jose Bautista -2.5
22. 2010 Adam Lind -2.4
23. 2011 Edwin Encarnacion -2.3
24. 2003 Carlos Delgado -2.3
25. 1979 Alfredo Griffin -2.3
26. 2015 Edwin Encarnacion -2.2
27. 1979 Rick Bosetti -2.1
28. 2016 Edwin Encarnacion -2.1
29. 1999 Tony Fernandez -2
30. 1986 George Bell -1

At least we dont have Billy Butler who is the worst ever. Or Yadi Molina, Victor Martinez... Surprisingly Valencia, Hosmer and Pedroia are worse than Morales. Bautista and Edwin arent far behind him.

Surprised to see Stanton, Puig, Ozuna, Cozart, Ramirez (Jose), Springer, Bregman, and Pillar in the bottom 50 of qualified batters.
 

Suntouchable13

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Dec 20, 2003
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According to Fangraphs here are the worst BsRs in Jays history.

1. 2007 Frank Thomas -8.2
2. 2006 Lyle Overbay -6.6
3. 2013 Adam Lind -6.1
4. 1980 Alfredo Griffin -5.5
5. 2016 Jose Bautista -5.2
6. 2004 Carlos Delgado -5.1
7. 2017 Kendrys Morales -4.8
8. 2008 Lyle Overbay -4.6
9. 2015 Russell Martin -4.6
10. 2014 Melky Cabrera -3.8
11. 2014 Dioner Navarro -3.6
12. 2002 Carlos Delgado -3.5
13. 2017 Jose Bautista -3.4
14. 1987 Willie Upshaw -2.9
15. 2011 Yunel Escobar -2.9
16. 1981 Alfredo Griffin -2.8
17. 1983 Alfredo Griffin -2.8
18. 2016 Troy Tulowitzki -2.7
19. 1980 Damaso Garcia -2.6
20. 1978 Rick Bosetti -2.6
21. 2014 Jose Bautista -2.5
22. 2010 Adam Lind -2.4
23. 2011 Edwin Encarnacion -2.3
24. 2003 Carlos Delgado -2.3
25. 1979 Alfredo Griffin -2.3
26. 2015 Edwin Encarnacion -2.2
27. 1979 Rick Bosetti -2.1
28. 2016 Edwin Encarnacion -2.1
29. 1999 Tony Fernandez -2
30. 1986 George Bell -1

At least we dont have Billy Butler who is the worst ever. Or Yadi Molina, Victor Martinez... Surprisingly Valencia, Hosmer and Pedroia are worse than Morales. Bautista and Edwin arent far behind him.

Surprised to see Stanton, Puig, Ozuna, Cozart, Ramirez (Jose), Springer, Bregman, and Pillar in the bottom 50 of qualified batters.

How is that even measured? Fascinating. Bengie Molina is not on the list? What the hell?
 

Discoverer

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Apr 11, 2012
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According to Fangraphs here are the worst BsRs in Jays history.

1. 2007 Frank Thomas -8.2
2. 2006 Lyle Overbay -6.6
3. 2013 Adam Lind -6.1
4. 1980 Alfredo Griffin -5.5
5. 2016 Jose Bautista -5.2
6. 2004 Carlos Delgado -5.1
7. 2017 Kendrys Morales -4.8
8. 2008 Lyle Overbay -4.6
9. 2015 Russell Martin -4.6
10. 2014 Melky Cabrera -3.8
11. 2014 Dioner Navarro -3.6
12. 2002 Carlos Delgado -3.5
13. 2017 Jose Bautista -3.4
14. 1987 Willie Upshaw -2.9
15. 2011 Yunel Escobar -2.9
16. 1981 Alfredo Griffin -2.8
17. 1983 Alfredo Griffin -2.8
18. 2016 Troy Tulowitzki -2.7
19. 1980 Damaso Garcia -2.6
20. 1978 Rick Bosetti -2.6
21. 2014 Jose Bautista -2.5
22. 2010 Adam Lind -2.4
23. 2011 Edwin Encarnacion -2.3
24. 2003 Carlos Delgado -2.3
25. 1979 Alfredo Griffin -2.3
26. 2015 Edwin Encarnacion -2.2
27. 1979 Rick Bosetti -2.1
28. 2016 Edwin Encarnacion -2.1
29. 1999 Tony Fernandez -2
30. 1986 George Bell -1

At least we dont have Billy Butler who is the worst ever. Or Yadi Molina, Victor Martinez... Surprisingly Valencia, Hosmer and Pedroia are worse than Morales. Bautista and Edwin arent far behind him.

Surprised to see Stanton, Puig, Ozuna, Cozart, Ramirez (Jose), Springer, Bregman, and Pillar in the bottom 50 of qualified batters.

Decision-making is a huge part of BsR, too, so you're not necessarily looking at just speed there.
 

phillipmike

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Oct 27, 2009
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How is that even measured? Fascinating. Bengie Molina is not on the list? What the hell?

Molina didnt qualify. Didnt have enough at bats but he would have been the worst with -8.5 BsR in just over 400 PAs.

Here is the link if you want to play around with it.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...m=14&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=18,a

Decision-making is a huge part of BsR, too, so you're not necessarily looking at just speed there.

Discoverer is right. So technically not the slowest but the worst in base running (speed, decision making, caught stealing etc.)
 

FearTheBeard

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Mar 27, 2011
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In house options are all injured :laugh::help:

If Pompey and Alford were healthy right now I wouldn't consider this type of move

I'd still take my chances with Roemen Fields or literally anyone else in the system. Even if Saunders was an average hitter (he's hitting worse than Ryan Goins), we're talking about a guy who had -11 Defensive runs saved in the outfield last year. He's negative value.
 

zeke

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Mar 14, 2005
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According to Fangraphs here are the worst BsRs in Jays history.

1. 2007 Frank Thomas -8.2
2. 2006 Lyle Overbay -6.6
3. 2013 Adam Lind -6.1
4. 1980 Alfredo Griffin -5.5
5. 2016 Jose Bautista -5.2
6. 2004 Carlos Delgado -5.1
7. 2017 Kendrys Morales -4.8
8. 2008 Lyle Overbay -4.6
9. 2015 Russell Martin -4.6
10. 2014 Melky Cabrera -3.8
11. 2014 Dioner Navarro -3.6
12. 2002 Carlos Delgado -3.5
13. 2017 Jose Bautista -3.4
14. 1987 Willie Upshaw -2.9
15. 2011 Yunel Escobar -2.9
16. 1981 Alfredo Griffin -2.8
17. 1983 Alfredo Griffin -2.8
18. 2016 Troy Tulowitzki -2.7
19. 1980 Damaso Garcia -2.6
20. 1978 Rick Bosetti -2.6
21. 2014 Jose Bautista -2.5
22. 2010 Adam Lind -2.4
23. 2011 Edwin Encarnacion -2.3
24. 2003 Carlos Delgado -2.3
25. 1979 Alfredo Griffin -2.3
26. 2015 Edwin Encarnacion -2.2
27. 1979 Rick Bosetti -2.1
28. 2016 Edwin Encarnacion -2.1
29. 1999 Tony Fernandez -2
30. 1986 George Bell -1

At least we dont have Billy Butler who is the worst ever. Or Yadi Molina, Victor Martinez... Surprisingly Valencia, Hosmer and Pedroia are worse than Morales. Bautista and Edwin arent far behind him.

Surprised to see Stanton, Puig, Ozuna, Cozart, Ramirez (Jose), Springer, Bregman, and Pillar in the bottom 50 of qualified batters.

that's actually a cumulative stat, so the fact that Morales is already that bad in less than half a season is....not good.

He's on pace to obliterate Thomas' record and come in around -11 this year.
 

AllDay28

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Oct 15, 2015
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traded for Stroman in my keeper league so if he starts to do bad it's completely on me
 

phillipmike

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Oct 27, 2009
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that's actually a cumulative stat, so the fact that Morales is already that bad in less than half a season is....not good.

He's on pace to obliterate Thomas' record and come in around -11 this year.

Yeah it could be pretty bad. Part of me wonders if he is still nursing that hamstring injury from earlier in the season (age probably had a lot to do with it) because he has never been this bad (on pace for -11 or anything around that plus you look at some of the plays and think how the the hell did he not score or take the extra base? Maybe my opinion of his base running is skewed.

Has me thinking because guys like Valencia, Hosmer and Pedroia alread have bypassed their career worst BsR (Valencia might double his career worst before the AS break) and we arent even half way through the season.

Since 1990 Butler has been the worse with -12.7. I find it hard to believe that if they played the entire season and continued the trend then Hosmer, Valencia and Pedroia would easily beat Butler's "record" - we are talking -14+ for all three. Anyone know if they are grading the stat differently or notice a shift in base running this year?
 

zeke

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I still don't understand how he didn't score on smoak's 2 out towering flyball double off the LCF wall last night.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

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Aug 14, 2010
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Stop everything.

Mike M: I know you’re not the resident prospect guy, but how good do you personally think Vlad Guerrero Jr. is going to be?

12:23
Dave Cameron: I think he’s the best prospect in baseball.

12:23
Dave Cameron: And I wouldn’t be surprised if he turned out to be the best hitter in the game in the next 10 years.

Dave Cameron said something positive...like...really positive...about the Blue Jays. :blush:
 

Discoverer

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Apr 11, 2012
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Since 1990 Butler has been the worse with -12.7. I find it hard to believe that if they played the entire season and continued the trend then Hosmer, Valencia and Pedroia would easily beat Butler's "record" - we are talking -14+ for all three. Anyone know if they are grading the stat differently or notice a shift in base running this year?

The answer is probably just small sample. Anyone who puts up such extreme numbers of any kind over a couple of months is likely to see regression. Bellinger's on pace to hit ~65 HR this year. Judge is on pace for an 11-WAR season.

The guys putting up terrible baserunning numbers have probably just made a handful of mistakes early in the season that are unlikely to be replicated at the same rate the rest of the way (especially with a rate stat like BsR, where a couple of good baserunning plays can push them back to their career norms.)
 

Discoverer

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Dave Cameron said something positive...like...really positive...about the Blue Jays. :blush:

Crazy. And this isn't "I think he'll be the best prospect soon/by the end of the year/for 2018." This is right now.

I've been saying for a while that Guerrero and Bichette are having easily the two most impressive offensive seasons of any prospect in baseball, but scouting ratings tend to take a while to catch up.
 

phillipmike

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Oct 27, 2009
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My perception of Fangraphs is they are pro Jays.

Only the Cards, Giants, Dodgers, Mets, Rangers, Red Sox and Yankees have higher posts about them. Though i feel like the AA led Jays got more love, almost like an article a week.

But i guess you are specfically speaking about Cameron.
 

phillipmike

Registered User
Oct 27, 2009
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8,293
The answer is probably just small sample. Anyone who puts up such extreme numbers of any kind over a couple of months is likely to see regression. Bellinger's on pace to hit ~65 HR this year. Judge is on pace for an 11-WAR season.

The guys putting up terrible baserunning numbers have probably just made a handful of mistakes early in the season that are unlikely to be replicated at the same rate the rest of the way (especially with a rate stat like BsR, where a couple of good baserunning plays can push them back to their career norms.)

Good enough explanation for me. :handclap:
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
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Cameron has really pulled a 180 on the jays this year and last year. Before that he always maintained they were worse than their own projections. Now he consistently says they're better. I think much of it had to do with accepting how good Donaldson actually is, which he was skeptical of for a while.

And as much as I love Bichette's line this year, Vladdy's is still better in the important areas, especially when you acknowledge that vladdy's raw power is considerably bigger than Bo's.

I've said it before, but Vladdy's line as an 18yr old in full season ball, with more walks than strikeouts, a great batting average without too much babip, and barely tapping into his raw power yet, is the stuff dreams are made of. Like the perfect line you want to see from a hitting prospect.
 

Eyedea

The Legend Continues
Jan 29, 2012
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My perception of Fangraphs is they are pro Jays.

Only the Cards, Giants, Dodgers, Mets, Rangers, Red Sox and Yankees have higher posts about them. Though i feel like the AA led Jays got more love, almost like an article a week.

But i guess you are specfically speaking about Cameron.

Tim
1:09 Dave - What teams and topics get the most clicks at Fangraphs?

Dave Cameron
1:10 The teams you'd expect, plus the Blue Jays. Blue Jays fans will click on anything. It was hilarious to watch the traffic when the Drew Storen-Joaquin Benoit trade went down. Seattle fans were like "eh, who cares", but Benoit's player page instantly became our most viewed page.

This was from a chat last year. They aren't necessarily pro-Jays, they just need to cater to a fanbase and generate those clicks.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

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Aug 14, 2010
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Lol I remember that comment from Cameron. Also, remember finding his reaction odd that a Team that draws from a potential ~35 million person fanbase would average the most clicks on his website. Moron.

Secret Red Sox fan, disguised as a self-loathing Mariners fan, disguised as a credible writer. /rant
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
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So as far as I can tell, no player in any Low-A league since 2006 (when fangraphs' earliest stats start) has managed to post a 200wrc+ or higher in 250+pa, like Bichette's 208 in 255pa. Of any age.

The closest anyone has come was a 22yr old Goedert putting up a 209 in 205pa.

So he's already in historic territory.
 

Discoverer

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This was from a chat last year. They aren't necessarily pro-Jays, they just need to cater to a fanbase and generate those clicks.

The Jays have also been one of the most interesting teams in baseball the last few years.
 
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