Jonathan Toews

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Blackhawkswincup

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Amusing to see this defense of Toews based on a pt streak

Kane just had a 7 game pt streak and yet people were still complaining about him

During an 8 of 9 stretch when he recently registered a pt he had 5 goals + 8 assists

Yet when Kane was getting pts it was "He is still playing awful" yet when Toews gets some pts while playing like crap its "Look at how amazing he is"
 

JaegerDice

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Dec 26, 2014
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Amusing to see this defense of Toews based on a pt streak

Kane just had a 7 game pt streak and yet people were still complaining about him

During an 8 of 9 stretch when he recently registered a pt he had 5 goals + 8 assists

Yet when Kane was getting pts it was "He is still playing awful" yet when Toews gets some pts while playing like crap its "Look at how amazing he is"

It's not so much defending Toews based on a point streak so much as mocking the idea that certain points are somehow worth less than others based on the score at the time they happened. By that logic, any goal scored in a losing effort is worthless and any goal scored beyond the one goal gap necessary to secure a win (like, say, 8 of the 10 goals against Pittsburgh) were wasted and equally worthless.

I don't think many people really care about Toews 'points streak'. There are far better quantitative measures for performance than box stats, and for those who prefer it, there's the eye-test. There's no shortage of players that have put points on the board despite playing like trash, and no shortage of players who have played great with nothing on the box sheet to show for it.
 

LDF

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But here is the thing...D-Cat has more points now than Toews and is only behind him by 2 in the positive +/-...So I guess we gotta pay D-Cat $10..5 too next contract on "comaparables"...more cause he plays less monutes than Toews and unlike Toews does not get 1st pp unit featuring..


Now Toews cannot be that bad cause he is ONLY 7 pts behind KANE but is +3 to Kane's -5 ....But then Kane is only 2 ahead of Panarin in points but Panarin is a gaudy +6 compated to the combined +3 and -5 of Toews and Kane respectively ..Thus we glean that the net 5x5 contribution of our $21 million a year investment is -2 and the star we traded who earns a lot less than either of our 2 $10.5 guys is a differential of 8 positive differential in comparison to their impact 9n the bottom line at evens..

My point being that BOTH 19 and 88 are pooping out their seasons. ..P-Poorvtotalncontributions exceot to Corsi ..but hey ..that gives you Nothing ..Stars star when they produce and buy in to defending as our 2 big "stars do not seem much interested in attempting to execute ...to busy at the Country Club. .
lets talk when whomever you post helps the team win 1 SC
 

Marotte Marauder

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It's not so much defending Toews based on a point streak so much as mocking the idea that certain points are somehow worth less than others based on the score at the time they happened. By that logic, any goal scored in a losing effort is worthless and any goal scored beyond the one goal gap necessary to secure a win (like, say, 8 of the 10 goals against Pittsburgh) were wasted and equally worthless.

I don't think many people really care about Toews 'points streak'. There are far better quantitative measures for performance than box stats, and for those who prefer it, there's the eye-test. There's no shortage of players that have put points on the board despite playing like trash, and no shortage of players who have played great with nothing on the box sheet to show for it.

There is a huge difference when points/goals are scored. If one doesn't understand that, they don't understand the emotional aspect of a hockey game, nor the effects of pressure on people.

People who can produce under pressure, regardless of endeavor, are irreplaceable. People who wilt come along all the time.
 

Blackhawks

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Everyone on earth would of given him that pay check.


Many people thought it was ridiculously high actually and I was expecting closer to 8.5 so I don’t think where you are pulling this “everyone on earth” junk from... The narrative at the time was they would get 13.5 in free agency which was an extremely stupid idea started by some clueless folks and that is why this deal is a good one when a lot of people knew it was a bad deal for the team and thus the fans...

Now Toews can enjoy his 10.5 M vegan life style while he floats to the puck every single time and makes pathetic weak passes to no where, turn over machine at its finest! But hey there are those possession numbers we should all be excited about... lol
 

BK

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Many people thought it was ridiculously high actually and I was expecting closer to 8.5 so I don’t think where you are pulling this “everyone on earth” junk from... The narrative at the time was they would get 13.5 in free agency which was an extremely stupid idea started by some clueless folks and that is why this deal is a good one when a lot of people knew it was a bad deal for the team and thus the fans...

Now Toews can enjoy his 10.5 M vegan life style while he floats to the puck every single time and makes pathetic weak passes to no where, turn over machine at its finest! But hey there are those possession numbers we should all be excited about... lol

8.5? You expected Toews to sign a deal for that “little” when he is the face of the franchise and coming off two elite season all while the cap was projected to have huge jumps? I mean we all have 20/20 vision in hindsight but it is laughable to think 8.5 considering the facts.

Toews and Kane had the upper hand in negotiations and 100% could of got their 13.5 million dollar market value. Stamkos coming off 3-4 injured season got that offer or more from Toronto.

This is not me saying he is coming close to earning his paycheck right now. He is not and needs to figure how to fix it.

Toews went from a 11% cap share to a 14% share (this share decreases every year).

Personally, I was hoping for 9.5 AAV.

The point of my comment was that no one on earth with a brain would have let him walk considering the the facts. If you are saying you would have I am saying you are a liar (before you claim victim, I am not saying you claimed this personally)
 
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Blackhawks

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8.5? You expected Toews to sign a deal for that “little” when he is the face of the franchise and coming off two elite season all while the cap was projected to have huge jumps? I mean we all have 20/20 vision in hindsight but it is laughable to think 8.5 considering the facts.

Toews and Kane had the upper hand in negotiations and 100% could of got their 13.5 million dollar market value. Stamkos coming off 3-4 injured season got that offer or more from Toronto.

This is not me saying he is coming close to earning his paycheck right now. He is not and needs to figure how to fix it.

Toews went from a 11% cap share to a 14% share (this share decreases every year).

Personally, I was hoping for 9.5 AAV.

The point of my comment was that no one on earth with a brain would have let him walk considering the the facts. If you are saying you would have I am saying you are a liar.


Well you were hoping 9.5 and I wouldnt have given him more than 8.5, so who turned out to be right or closer to his actual value($6M) 3 years later? Yes as a GM you have to have big beach balls and make a call...

No one with a brain would have let him walk yet the one with the real brain would have let him walk looking at it now...

I wouldnt have given him more than 8.5 as I thought 10.5 was ridiculous, people just want to make him look like a good guy as if he left some money on the table, I can assure you Toews sucked every last penny he could from Stan and no team in their right mind would have given him anything remotely close to 13M and basically would have gotten the same in the open market... Stan just cant negotiate for ****...

I bet if you had to sign Toews all over again you would give him the same deal knowing his decline a couple years later. Some people are too stuck in their emotions towards some players, I look at it from the team stand of view and no single player is that important...

This "face of the franchise" is losing the team 10s of millions of dollars right now...
 
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JaegerDice

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Oh, there's no question Toews and Kane each get well over 10.5 on the open market.

Their recent resume heading into UFA would have been the strongest of any UFAs in decades. Never mind the off-ice boon in marketing dollars they'd bring a new team.

Further, teams competing in UFA would be looking to pay one or the other, not both. Thats a ton more wiggle room to up the price if its only one significant cap hit to work around. One team wasnt going to pick up the pair for a combined 26 million or anything, but pick up one for 12-13 at a time cap projections were rosy? Absolutely.

Now, just cause they certainly would have got more on the open market doesnt mean they would have taken it when it came time to put pen to paper. Most of the teams that had the cap room to realistically offer more were bad teams...and still are today. Stan probably could have done more to leverage the benefits of the devil you know and all that. They took a discount. They may have been able to be convinced to take even more of one. Impossible to know, though they could just as soon have argued that they had already effectively given the Blackhawks a big discount by playing for 6.5mil for years their performance merited 8.5mil.
 

JaegerDice

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There is a huge difference when points/goals are scored. If one doesn't understand that, they don't understand the emotional aspect of a hockey game, nor the effects of pressure on people.

People who can produce under pressure, regardless of endeavor, are irreplaceable. People who wilt come along all the time.

A goal is worth a goal regardless of what the score state is at the time it is scored.

A point is worth a point regardless of what the score state is at the time it is scored.

I don't necessarily dispute the fact that goals can impact momentum, though I certainly don't consider it fact either. But even if we take it as fact, the goal scored in such case is merely a trigger for a response from the group, for which the goal-scorer is not in control of.

Let's look at a scenario.

The other night, Toews scores a break-away goal in the Capitals game to make it 5-2 late. They go on to lose 6-2, so the goal is 'meaningless'.

Ok, now rewind.

Say he scores the exact same goal at the exact same time. Only this time, however improbably, Kane, Schmaltz and Debrincat score 3 more goals and push the game to OT and the Blackhawks win. Suddenly the exact same goal is not meaningless, it's the goal that changed the momentum and kick-started a comeback.

The difference between 'meaningless' and 'momentum changer' has nothing to do with him in such case.

This is the fallacy of applying full-game results to single events within games (short of injuries, of course). Be it goals, or fights, or penalty kills or whatever. It's artificially and retroactively applying meaning and impact to what was an isolated event. If you want to ascribe 'momentum' to an event, fine, but the event itself has a set value independent of whether the player's teammates respond to it, and whether a player's teammates respond is largely out of their control.



But what the hell. For you and the people that agree with your idea that a goal means more depending on score state, here are the team leaders by score-close score state in all situations (5v5, PP, PK, etc). That is within 1 goal, so all goals/points fall under game-tying, game-winning, or go-ahead goals. All important times to score, no?

1) Kane: 16 points (7 goals, 9 assists)
T-2) Toews: 12 points (2 goals, 10 assists)
T-2) Debrincat: 12 points ( 7 goals, 5 assists)
T-4) Saad: 10 points (7 goals, 3 assists)
T-4) Keith: 10 points (10 assists)
T-4) Anisimov: 10 points (9 goals, 1 assist)
7) Forsling: 9 points (3 goals, 6 assists)
T-8) Panik: 8 points (2 goals, 6 assists)
T-8) Schmaltz: 8 points (8 assists)
10) Rutta: 7 points (2 goals, 5 assists)
T-11) Sharp: 6 points (2 goals, 4 assists)
T-11) Franson: 6 points (1 goal, 5 assists)
T-11) Wingels: 6 points (3 goals, 3 assists)
T-11) Hartman: 6 points (2 goals, 4 assists)
15) Hayden: 5 points (3 goals, 2 assists)
16) Seabrook: 3 points (3 assists)
T-17) Bouma: 2 points (1 goal, 1 assist)
T-17) Murphy: 2 points (2 assists)
T-18) Kempny: 1 point (1 assist)
T-18) Kero: 1 point (1 assist)
 

Pez68

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A goal is worth a goal regardless of what the score state is at the time it is scored.

A point is worth a point regardless of what the score state is at the time it is scored.

I don't necessarily dispute the fact that goals can impact momentum, though I certainly don't consider it fact either. But even if we take it as fact, the goal scored in such case is merely a trigger for a response from the group, for which the goal-scorer is not in control of.

Let's look at a scenario.

The other night, Toews scores a break-away goal in the Capitals game to make it 5-2 late. They go on to lose 6-2, so the goal is 'meaningless'.

Ok, now rewind.

Say he scores the exact same goal at the exact same time. Only this time, however improbably, Kane, Schmaltz and Debrincat score 3 more goals and push the game to OT and the Blackhawks win. Suddenly the exact same goal is not meaningless, it's the goal that changed the momentum and kick-started a comeback.

The difference between 'meaningless' and 'momentum changer' has nothing to do with him in such case.

This is the fallacy of applying full-game results to single events within games (short of injuries, of course). Be it goals, or fights, or penalty kills or whatever. It's artificially and retroactively applying meaning and impact to what was an isolated event. If you want to ascribe 'momentum' to an event, fine, but the event itself has a set value independent of whether the player's teammates respond to it, and whether a player's teammates respond is largely out of their control.



But what the hell. For you and the people that agree with your idea that a goal means more depending on score state, here are the team leaders by score-close score state in all situations (5v5, PP, PK, etc). That is within 1 goal, so all goals/points fall under game-tying, game-winning, or go-ahead goals. All important times to score, no?

1) Kane: 16 points (7 goals, 9 assists)
T-2) Toews: 12 points (2 goals, 10 assists)
T-2) Debrincat: 12 points ( 7 goals, 5 assists)
T-4) Saad: 10 points (7 goals, 3 assists)
T-4) Keith: 10 points (10 assists)
T-4) Anisimov: 10 points (9 goals, 1 assist)
7) Forsling: 9 points (3 goals, 6 assists)
T-8) Panik: 8 points (2 goals, 6 assists)
T-8) Schmaltz: 8 points (8 assists)
10) Rutta: 7 points (2 goals, 5 assists)
T-11) Sharp: 6 points (2 goals, 4 assists)
T-11) Franson: 6 points (1 goal, 5 assists)
T-11) Wingels: 6 points (3 goals, 3 assists)
T-11) Hartman: 6 points (2 goals, 4 assists)
15) Hayden: 5 points (3 goals, 2 assists)
16) Seabrook: 3 points (3 assists)
T-17) Bouma: 2 points (1 goal, 1 assist)
T-17) Murphy: 2 points (2 assists)
T-18) Kempny: 1 point (1 assist)
T-18) Kero: 1 point (1 assist)

We are talking about goals, and you rank them by points? The fact that Toews has scored 2 goals in score close situations is pathetic. He used to lead the team in that stat pretty much every season... That list certainly supports the observations I have made this season in regards to who has been clutch, and scored big goals... and who has generally been a no-show. So, thanks?
 
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JaegerDice

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We are talking about goals, and you rank them by points? The fact that Toews has scored 2 goals in score close situations is pathetic. He used to lead the team in that stat pretty much every season... That list certainly supports the observations I have made this season in regards to who has been clutch, and scored big goals... and who has generally been a no-show. So, thanks?

OMGZ guyz, he passes more than he shootz, burn him he's a witch!

Saad shares the team lead in goals under such scenarios, the guy putting the puck on his stick obviously has nothing to do with that, no sir.

I guess we're back to 'points only matter if they fit the criteria necessary to push my narrative'. Swell.

This is now actively looking for reasons to bitch. I'll not stop you.
 
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Marotte Marauder

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OMGZ guyz, he passes more than he shootz, burn him he's a witch!

Saad shares the team lead in goals under such scenarios, the guy putting the puck on his stick obviously has nothing to do with that, no sir.

I guess we're back to 'points only matter if they fit the criteria necessary to push my narrative'. Swell.

This is now actively looking for reasons to *****. I'll not stop you. Whine away.

Stick to one argument at a time.

Making a pass under crunch time is one thing, being the MAN who buries it in the night in crunch time is quite another thing. If you are not THE man scoring, you will also have a tendency to over-defer in those situations.

Don't be such a stats nerd and think about the game and how it and human nature intersect.
 

JaegerDice

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Stick to one argument at a time.

Making a pass under crunch time is one thing, being the MAN who buries it in the night in crunch time is quite another thing. If you are not THE man scoring, you will also have a tendency to over-defer in those situations.

Not really. Finishing is obviously important, and there are certainly goals that come down to a guy beating a goalie who's set and in position 1v1, but there's no shortage of goals scored where the assist was what made the play happen, was what put the puck in dangerous area, drew coverage to give the shooter time and space, forced the goalie to move, dragged him out of position, etc.

Making a great play under pressure is as impressive as burying a shot under pressure. I've never been of the belief that goals are inherently more valuable than assists. Depends entirely on the nature of the goal.


He's certainly not differing. Toews is 2nd on the team in SOG when the score is within 1. Kane leads the team with 63, Toews has 62.

Toews is 2nd on the team behind Saad in individual scoring chances coming off his stick when the score is within 1, and he's 3rd on the team in high-danger chances (ie, shots in the slot) coming off his stick behind Saad and Anisimov.

That's in all situations. 5v5 when the score is within 1 he's 3rd (SOG), 1st (iSCF) and 2nd (iHDSCF) on the team. And his linemate Saad is 1st, 2nd and 1st.

He's getting to the right places and putting the puck on net in crunch time. Or putting it on the stick of his linemate. Just hasn't been going in. It will eventually if he keeps those rates up. Likewise for Saad.

The issue is whether it will be too late by the time they regress.
 
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Pez68

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1) Nobody has ever argued against the idea that some players are simple better shooters than other players and therefore have higher shooting percentages. That's patently obvious.

The issue is when a player's shooting percentage deviates significantly from his own baseline or career average. That's when we know they're either unsustainably lucky/hot, or unsustainable unlucky/cold.

Different shots from different locations (like scoring chances or high danger scoring chances) do come with higher sh%, absolutely. But a player can still shoot 5-10% higher or 5-10% lower than what they usually shoot from those locations, just as they can from low danger areas. They can't control that variability.


2) You're over simplifying the 'a shot is a shot is a shot' argument.

The 'a shot is a shot is a shot' argument comes from the repeatably observed fact that over the course of large samples, a team will score roughly as many goals off of 'low danger' or 'perimeter' shots as they will 'high danger' shots or 'scoring chances'. The reason for this is rather simple.... high danger shots and scoring chances happen significantly less frequently than 'low danger' shots. They're hard to create. So it may take many more shots to score off low danger chances, but the raw volume advantage evens out the gains that high danger shots or scoring chances provide as far as success rate.

From a historical and practical perspective, the teams that pour rubber onto the opposing net at a high rate, indiscriminate of 'quality', generally have greater success than those that pass around looking for high quality and getting relatively few chances off. That's obviously not 100% the case across the board, every season, but it's a pretty clear, repeated trend.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to create high-danger chances. You absolutely should when you can. You just can't always be looking for high danger scoring chances, especially when a shot on net is the best option and you're an at least competent possession team that can probably get the puck back and generate more shots.

Of course, this obviously requires that you also prevent the other team from putting even more rubber towards your own net. The power of volume works both ways.

It's obviously possible that the hypothetical team that eschews volume in pursuit of quality could find sustainable, repeatable success. It just hasn't happened yet.



3) As far as how scoring chances and high-danger scoring chances are defined, it's been an evolution. Currently, it's dictated by aggregate sh% variance across factors.

Over the course of a season (and their careers), players take a ton of shots. In certain scenarios, their sh% consistently sees an increase or a decrease from their overall sh% baseline.

Factors include:

  • Shot type (Wrist shot, slap shot, deflection, etc.)
  • Shot distance (Distance from net)
  • Shot angle (Angle in absolute degrees from the central line normal to the goal line)
  • Rebounds (Whether or not the shot was a rebound)
  • Rush shots (Was the shot off the rush or off the cycle)
  • Strength state (5v5, PP, PK, etc)
  • On/Off wing

We aggregate the change that players see as a result of all combinations of these factors, and then we get an idea of how much more dangerous any given shot is, or at least, how much higher or lower the percentage chance is that a player scores under such circumstance vs their overall career baseline sh%.



For example, here's a heatmap demonstrating the relative danger based on distance and angle (the two are tied at the hip, given the location of the net will force changes to angle based on distance away).

dzones2.jpeg



As stated earlier, a player's sh% under these circumstances varies. Over a large sample, a clear sh% range scoring chances and high-danger chances appears, but players can move out of this range at various times. A player that normally shoots say 15% better from high danger areas compared to the rest of the ice, might go through stretches where they only shot 2% better, and stretches where they shoot 30% better, for example. It's not controllable obviously, so we know when we see this, or we see the impact it has on their overall sh% as a whole, that it's either an unsustainably hot or unsustainably cold player that will regress toward their norms eventually.



For the record, all of this is fed into the xG model that provides the numbers for xG , xGA, xGF%, which have all proven more predictive of future goal scoring than current goal scoring.

Perfect? No.

Useful and predictive? Yas.

So, continuing this discussion, as it partially pertains to this recent diversion.

Want to know why there is so much variance in those percentages? Because there are way too many variables to take into account that affect the shot and the chances of it going in.

The entire problem with the definition of scoring chances and "high-danger" scoring chances is exactly what you just posted. The only factor they are accounting for is the shot! They do not account for the traffic in front of the net when the shot is taken. They do not account for the pass that setup the shot. They do not account for the shooter taking the shot. They do not account for how long the shooter held the puck first, turning a high danger scoring chance into an easy save. Was the puck flat, or rolling? Did the shooter have to rush the shot, as he was pressured, or was it a "clean look". The external circumstances of that shot have far more to do with whether it scores than location, shot type, rush/cycle, or pretty much any other factor you are looking at.

A shot from the slot off a crap pass, where the goalie has time to get set and come out to challenge the shooter will never be as dangerous as a one-timer from a worse angle, off a good pass that has frozen the goalie... Or a quick sbot from the point, with 3 guys standing in front of the goalie screening him. Or a back door play from an awful angle on an open net.

To say nothing of the fact that those stats are just as subjective as hits, giveaways, and takeaways, in how the HOME TEAM stats guy tracks them.

And once again, I will contend that shooting percentage doesn't vary because of luck or random chance. When a team is playing well, they are doing the right things to score goals. When a player is going through a peak in their shooting percentage for the season, it's because they are often reading the play better, getting in better spots to score, and simply shooting better.

I'll stick to my eye test in judging how well a person or team is playing. Subjective, of course, but at least I trust the guy whose subjectivity we are counting on.
 
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Fortyfives

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I’m sure Winnipeg would have said we will pay you whatever you want to play hhere. Toews is a god there.
 

Marotte Marauder

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I'll stick to my eye test in judging how well a person or team is playing. Subjective, of course, but at least I trust the guy whose subjectivity we are counting on.

And since the implementation of the sabremetrics, has there been a decrease in bad signings? I doubt it.
 

BK

"Goalie Apologist"
Feb 8, 2011
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Well you were hoping 9.5 and I wouldnt have given him more than 8.5, so who turned out to be right or closer to his actual value($6M) 3 years later? Yes as a GM you have to have big beach balls and make a call...

No one with a brain would have let him walk yet the one with the real brain would have let him walk looking at it now...

If you are saying that you would have let him walk for anything over 8.5 AAV without hindsight then I am saying you are full of it. You can claim it all day but we all know that you are just projecting (maybe just exaggerating to make a point). Hindsight is always 20/20. You actually said Kane and Kessel were the same player in your rant. Would you actually still take Kessel at 8 over Kane at 10.5? Foresight and Hindsight say no chance.

You keep making these claims about Stan not having balls but lets do some simple math. Kane and Toews go a simple 3% to cap raise from 11% to 14%, which makes sense as they were both coming off great seasons and had 2 cups already and a CM each. Toews was coming off two selke caliber seasons (1/2 on awards) and was close to a ppg player. Stan literally had zero leverage. Market value was $13.0 million (valid sources such as Bobby Mac) and Stan got them to take a 20% cut from that. Not bad for zero leverage. Before you bring up Steve Y you need to look at the tax advantage he has because it drastically alters that leverage he has.

The cap falling off was projected by very few and even the NHL was expecting the cap shoot up to 80 million. D. Thank you Canadian dollar...

Again, Stan has signed two shit deals, Seabrook and Bickell but has signed great deals as well in Keith, Crow,

I wouldnt have given him more than 8.5 as I thought 10.5 was ridiculous, people just want to make him look like a good guy as if he left some money on the table, I can assure you Toews sucked every last penny he could from Stan and no team in their right mind would have given him anything remotely close to 13M and basically would have gotten the same in the open market... Stan just cant negotiate for ****...

Again, you saying you would not signed him for over 8.5 but sorry no one believes this. Personally I think you are smart enough to not do something like that.

Do you negotiate for a living because some of the stuff you bring up makes it look like you don't know how real negotiations work. (I personally do and leverage is a huge factor that you constantly ignore or forget about). Seabrook's deal was brutal but Keith's was spectacular. There are hits and misses for every GM (everyone's fantasy GM Stevie Y signed 5.8 AAV deal and Kilorn to a 4.5 AAV deal).

I bet if you had to sign Toews all over again you would give him the same deal knowing his decline a couple years later. Some people are too stuck in their emotions towards some players, I look at it from the team stand of view and no single player is that important...

This "face of the franchise" is losing the team 10s of millions of dollars right now...

Knowing his decline you think I would sign him for the same deal? Really? No chance. I expected decline in the last 3 years of the deal but knowing what we all know now (assuming he knows it as well) I would have signed him to a 7-8 million dollar deal or traded him but this is all theoretical. Fiscally speaking the team and league make a lot of cash off Toews as he is still a cash cow.




Some of your quotes from the Kane and Toews signing thread.

Didnt Kessel sign for 8 and it was just last year? Is Kane any better than him? I will say this again, put Kessel in place of Kane with the same depth around him and you get same exact results.

This is wrong. Kessel is a clear step below Kane and he has been surrounded but talent in Pitt.

if they truly cared about fans, winning, or their teamates sticking around for some depth they would have taken what other superstars were taking from their teams but they decided to take what they would have gotten in FA which is bull crap IMO.

I doubt you would leave 20% on the table for your co-workers. This is not how the real world works. T & K left a lot on the table (15-20 million-ish) (confirmed by valid NHL sources) but I guess that is not enough. Players are not the Red Cross.
 

ChiHawk21

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1,552
Any GM that tried to play hardball that limited Toews and Kane to 8.5 million a year on those contracts would have been fired anyway. There's no way Rocky was going to risk letting those two go.
and if we did lose them. we would have no toews or kane on this team while signing shaw and teravainen and some other crap UFAs. They did what they needed to do and havnt missed the playoffs since these two came in the league
 
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