Johnsson and Kapanen..

[LeafFever]

I can't wait to see Babcock start our Marlies MVP on the fourth line expecting him to score his way up the lineup. Then, once he has made the jump up to scoring lines, one mistake, and back to the 4th line he goes.

If I were the coach, I would put Andreas Johnsson on a line that would allow him to score. If he can't score, then I'd move him down the lineup accordingly. I'd put him in the best possible position to succeed, not hamper him with 4th line plugs.

However, what do I know being a retired minor league coach.

It is rather frustrating seeing the young guys getting so little usage.

 

[Liminality]

I can't wait to see Babcock start our Marlies MVP on the fourth line expecting him to score his way up the lineup. Then, once he has made the jump up to scoring lines, one mistake, and back to the 4th line he goes.

If I were the coach, I would put Andreas Johnsson on a line that would allow him to score. If he can't score, then I'd move him down the lineup accordingly. I'd put him in the best possible position to succeed, not hamper him with 4th line plugs.

However, what do I know being a retired minor league coach.

Johnsson's going to have to beat out Hyman and Marleau for top 6 spots. I could see him starting on the 3rd line with whoever. He'll get his chance, people need to stop worrying.

 

[Scott Malkinson]

Both Johnsson and Kapanen are going to be very good middle six wingers.

Both have 50+ point upside.

 

[Pucker77]

So you give me one really weak example from 8 years ago? Cam Barker was terrible. That's not like trading JVR in his prime at all.

At the time he was still a good young player. He was uprooted by Keith and Seabrook and was on the 2nd pair. Once he got to Minnesota his play went downhill. Just because it was 8 years ago does not make it any less true.

As for JVR you are right, it is not the same. JVR is a winger, which are the easiest position to replace on a hockey team. Yes, he scored 36 goals, but that does not change the fact that Babcock didnt trust him unless he was on the powerplay.

Barker getting passed by Keith and Seabrook is like Johnsson and Kapanen passing JVR. Those 2 are better fits for the team with their speed, offensive and defensive ability, etc. Which made JVR expendable.

Plus, nobody said that if you trade JVR for futures, you had to keep those pieces. If you get a 1 st and a good prospect or something then you can trade them with other pieces to a rebuilder for an OEL or Karlsson (since it was rumored OTT wanted 2 firsts for him) or whatever else made sense.

JVR is 1 player, who was on the 3rd line and on the powerplay. His line did very little offensively 5-on-5 and JVR was not exactly the key cog of the PP. He was really good in front of the net, but for every foot you move away from the net he was worse and worse.

If that type of player gets me a good defenseman or a good combo of picks/prospects I take it everyday of the week.

 

[LeafFever]

At the time he was still a good young player. He was uprooted by Keith and Seabrook and was on the 2nd pair. Once he got to Minnesota his play went downhill. Just because it was 8 years ago does not make it any less true.

As for JVR you are right, it is not the same. JVR is a winger, which are the easiest position to replace on a hockey team. Yes, he scored 36 goals, but that does not change the fact that Babcock didnt trust him unless he was on the powerplay.

Barker getting passed by Keith and Seabrook is like Johnsson and Kapanen passing JVR. Those 2 are better fits for the team with their speed, offensive and defensive ability, etc. Which made JVR expendable.

Plus, nobody said that if you trade JVR for futures, you had to keep those pieces. If you get a 1 st and a good prospect or something then you can trade them with other pieces to a rebuilder for an OEL or Karlsson (since it was rumored OTT wanted 2 firsts for him) or whatever else made sense.

JVR is 1 player, who was on the 3rd line and on the powerplay. His line did very little offensively 5-on-5 and JVR was not exactly the key cog of the PP. He was really good in front of the net, but for every foot you move away from the net he was worse and worse.

If that type of player gets me a good defenseman or a good combo of picks/prospects I take it everyday of the week.

He really wasn't. He was a draft bust. That is not a good example at all.

 

[Pucker77]

He really wasn't. He was a draft bust. That is not a good example at all.

The year before he was traded he had 40 points in 68 games. Followed by 9 points in 17 playoff games.

Is he viewed as a bust? Yes.

Does that mean he was always a bust without ever having at least 1 decent season? No.

The Chicago Blackhawks sold high on a guy because they knew his ceiling and had 2 guys that were viewed as better and with brighter futures. The Leafs should have done the same with JVR once Johnsson and Kapanen were given regular roles.

But thank you for your excellent analysis against my points.

 

[moon111]

What are you trying to prove with this? Did you just compare Kappys AHL assists (majority from when he played in the AHL at 19/20 yrs old) to Johnssons playoffs AHL assists (23 year old, 16 game sample size)!? Why not compare their normal seasons?
AHL Assists:
Kapanen: 54 assists in 119 games = 0.45 assists/game
Johnsson: 55 assists in 129 games = 0.42 assists/game

???

Johnsson IMO will better offensively (look at his goal/points pace in the AHL), but the stats you used don't suit your argument at all.

Also, Kapanen is 2 YEARS YOUNGER than Johnsson. He's only 21 years old. Let him develop like Johnsson did.


Why assists??? He put up a 16 goal pace (7 goals/ 38 games) on the 4th line this season, why not use that? This thread has outlined numerous times that his oish% this season (38games) was unlucky 5v5 4.9% just like Kadris/Nylanders unlucky oish% phase. Meaning unfinished plays from his teammates despite great possession/chances. It'll return to the normal like usual, don't worry.

Kapanen is on the club because of his defensive play. His exciting one-man rushes are a great bonus that keeps the opposition on their toes. To blame his assist totals on his line-mates, name one player on Montreal that Plekanec was with that had Kaps level of passing ineptitude? The evidence is quite clear, he can be sprung lose and beat defensemen. But he has no idea of the play around him to use line-mates unless he stops, which might lead him to some future success. But the most I think you'll see from his assist wise will be something similar to Grabner who has 91 assists in 553 games which is a lower rate then the great play-maker, Leo Komarov.

 

[Boutette]

Kapanen is on the club because of his defensive play. His exciting one-man rushes are a great bonus that keeps the opposition on their toes. To blame his assist totals on his line-mates, name one player on Montreal that Plekanec was with that had Kaps level of passing ineptitude? The evidence is quite clear, he can be sprung lose and beat defensemen. But he has no idea of the play around him to use line-mates unless he stops, which might lead him to some future success. But the most I think you'll see from his assist wise will be something similar to Grabner who has 91 assists in 553 games which is a lower rate then the great play-maker, Leo Komarov.

So, Plekanec's tally of zero goals and two assists for the 17 games he played with the Leafs the rest of the season was all Kapanen's fault, was it?

 

[Brock Radunske]

You cannot trade your UFAs when you are a lock for a playoff spot.

While I see your point, St.Louis just did it two years ago with Shattenkirk.

 

[LeafFever]

While I see your point, St.Louis just did it two years ago with Shattenkirk.

Very hard to come up with other examples.

 

[ACC1224]

While I see your point, St.Louis just did it two years ago with Shattenkirk.

and with Stastny this year...how did that work out for them?

 

[Martin Skoula]

and with Stastny this year...how did that work out for them?

They were going to move the picks for a top-6 forward but the deal fell through last minute. Either way, if an average 2C is the difference between playoffs or not, you weren't going far.

 

[ACC1224]

They were going to move the picks for a top-6 forward but the deal fell through last minute. Either way, if an average 2C is the difference between playoffs or not, you weren't going far.

The effect in can have in the room is why it rarely happens.

 

[Martin Skoula]

The effect in can have in the room is why it rarely happens.

I don't really see the difference between a guy getting traded for an upgrade and having Johnsson come in and outplay Komarov in a UFA year. I understand the team getting mad if a contributor is traded for just picks, but losing a buddy for a better player is part of the job they're getting paid millions to do.

 

[ACC1224]

I don't really see the difference between a guy getting traded for an upgrade and having Johnsson come in and outplay Komarov in a UFA year. I understand the team getting mad if a contributor is traded for just picks, but losing a buddy for a better player is part of the job they're getting paid millions to do.

yes, they weren't lost for better players

 

[Martin Skoula]

yes, they weren't lost for better players

Yeah so the fault is on the GM for not making sure the second deal went through, not for trading Stastny in general. The trade that did happen is a fine move if you pull off the second trade correctly.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Kapanen is on the club because of his defensive play. His exciting one-man rushes are a great bonus that keeps the opposition on their toes. To blame his assist totals on his line-mates, name one player on Montreal that Plekanec was with that had Kaps level of passing ineptitude? The evidence is quite clear, he can be sprung lose and beat defensemen. But he has no idea of the play around him to use line-mates unless he stops, which might lead him to some future success. But the most I think you'll see from his assist wise will be something similar to Grabner who has 91 assists in 553 games which is a lower rate then the great play-maker, Leo Komarov.

So you don't understand what on-ice sh% is? Should I explain it?

 

[Boutette]

It is rather frustrating seeing the young guys getting so little usage.

Yes, its extremely frustrating how little usage Hyman, Matthews, Nylander, Brown and Marner got this past year.

 

[Rielly4]

AJ and Kap will make us even more speedy and skilled next season.

After watching the Marlies playoff run closely...Its become clear to me that we have to find a way to get Marchment and Moore on our team. Those two are really something each in their own right and bring some of what we lack. You never know if it will translate to the NHL but those two look dominant in the AHL. Moore has tons of skill and speed and is an absolute puck hound...Marchment is also a great puck hound standing at 6 foot 4 he has good hands and a great shot but most of all is physical and has a great stick on the forecheck.

 

[Nithoniniel]

The effect in can have in the room is why it rarely happens.

Worth noting then that Blues did better after the trade, so there's certainly not a profound effect in the room.

 

[ACC1224]

Worth noting then that Blues did better after the trade, so there's certainly not a profound effect in the room.

ok

 

[Nithoniniel]

ok

Well it's simple. If there's a notable effect on the other players mentally, it would show up negatively in the results. If it doesn't, then obviously it's not an issue worth worrying about.

 

[ACC1224]

Well it's simple. If there's a notable effect on the other players mentally, it would show up negatively in the results. If it doesn't, then obviously it's not an issue worth worrying about.

One team doing better and still missing the playoffs doesn't mean that will be the case for every team, surprised that would need to be mentioned.
I'm certainly not worried about it, appreciate the concern.

 

[Nithoniniel]

One team doing better and still missing the playoffs doesn't mean that will be the case for every team, surprised that would need to be mentioned.
I'm certainly not worried about it, appreciate the concern.

Well I was only talking about one case, but yeah that is absolutely the case.

 

[LeafFever]

Worth noting then that Blues did better after the trade, so there's certainly not a profound effect in the room.

It's worth noting they lost 6 in a row and dropped out of a playoff spot at the time of the trade deadline. That was the reason they moved Stastny. There was nowhere to go but up.