Signing(s): Johnny Manziel signs with Hamilton (CFL)...then traded to MTL...now released

DanielPlainview

Registered User
Apr 28, 2009
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The very idea that you "apply for" the CFL invalidates the entire argument you try to make. That's not how it works. CFL teams invite you, not the other way around.

By the way every CFL teams run open try-out days all over the US every year. Hundreds try-out, a few MIGHT get rookie camp invites.

Your the one making a ludicrous claim that hundreds of players are attempted to be signed each yeah but they all turn down the CFL. You have the burden of proof there.

Semantics is a great way to weaken your argument.

You continue to assume it's the best of the rest that aren't in the NFL that attempt to go to the CFL. I think what you'd discover is a lot of players simply move on and utilize their degree or return to school. The lure of the NFL is the seven figure income. For many, many players, moving to Canada to make $60,000 is simply not worth it.
 
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Holden Caulfield

Eternal Skeptic
Feb 15, 2006
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My Strawman to your Strawman.
The quality of the CFL players are equivalent to practice squad guys with a few exceptions.
If the quality of the CFL was so great your best players would come to the NFL and never look back.

That's ignoring the difference in the game. You might not get it if you haven't watched the CFL, but there is quite a bit that is different about the game. Many basic skills are the same, and of course the best are in the NFL. But you start talking equivalent levels beyond the top of the top the margin is razor thin where other things can matter. Like the difference in the game.

There's also the notion that the top 53x32 are in the NFL. This is simply not true. A team may have to chose between a 29yo who is slightly better vs a 23yo who is slightly worse. Often they will chose the 23yo since they HOPE he might develop and he is cheaper. The 29yo then ends up in CFL despite being better than some in the NFL.

Let's ignore all that. No one at all is arguing CFL is at same level of NFL. Even say you are right that CFL are equivalent 45-53 on roster/practice roster players. That still means is ALOT better than NCAA since very few NCAA players get any kind of NFL look at all.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
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The quality of the CFL players are equivalent to practice squad guys with a few exceptions.

Sure, I'll agree to that. Now can we both agree that a team made up entirely of NFL practice squad players would still absolutely crush any college team?

If the quality of the CFL was so great your best players would come to the NFL and never look back.

This makes no sense. I don't think anyone thinks that the top 10% of the CFL (the guys who tend to get NFL offers) would be any better than the bottom 10% of the NFL, with the rare exception like a Cameron Wake.
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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You need to provide some evidence that hundreds of NCAA players every year after the draft, after training camp cuts, and after pre-season cuts apply for and are rejected by the CFL on account of their level of skill. Otherwise, you're talking fantasy.

I've known several players who fell just outside of being drafted. They were scouted. They were invited to pro days and workouts. They talked to a number of teams. It just didn't work out. None of them even contemplated moving to Canada. It's anecdote, yes, but there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that is closer to the norm than this made up hierarchy you've constructed in your head to build the CFL up.

And the argument isn't that the NCAA is better than the CFL, but that the elite programs, like Ohio State, Alabama, LSU, etc. - the schools that produce a large amount of NFL talent - would field teams that would beat a CFL team.

You've got to be kidding. What do you think the CFL is, a community flag football association? Players don't "apply" to the CFL, the CFL recruits them. This is how any professional sports league in the world operates. Good heavens.

How many of these players you know were offered a CFL contract and declined it to pursue non-football occupations?
 

DanielPlainview

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Apr 28, 2009
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Semantics again. Of course players don't "apply" like it's a job at Home Depot, but there are ways for them to go about getting to the CFL if they want to try. It's not solely about being scouted.

I don't know, but I do know they had no interest in the CFL. If they had been, I can only assume they declined.
 

Newsworthy

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Jan 28, 2018
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  • But your argument is that those with "NFL experience" would dominate.
  • Even though a lot of the players your getting where in NFL camps or were NFL cuts. Then you ignore the obvious which is second and third string NFL players have no reason to go to the CF L and rarely are in their prime when they attempt to resurrect their careers The CF L isn't getting quality former players.
  • Guys like Cam Wake are the exception rather than the rule.
It's a QB driven league. The top end talent at the major colleges are way superior.
Many CF L players weren't even drafted by the NFL.
Some were late rd picks.
On your last point I'll say this. You need to remember that the CFL has an import rule.
The three best receivers in the CFL last year went to non major football colleges. Those guys would be eaten alive if they played Alabama. One of Manziels Wrs on the TiCats Jalen Saunders was a failed NY Jets mid rd pick a few years ago. He put up very good numbers in college.
Your under estimating the talent of NCAA major division 1.
An NCAA all star team vs a CF L ALL STAR TEAM.
NCAA all day with easily superior talent.
i Also would place money on a top college program like last years Sooners over your Grey Cup winner.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
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Semantics again. Of course players don't "apply" like it's a job at Home Depot, but there are ways for them to go about getting to the CFL if they want to try. It's not solely about being scouted.

I don't know, but I do know they had no interest in the CFL. If they had been, I can only assume they declined.

An agent can cold call CFL teams and try to get his guy an off-season workout, maybe a mini camp invite. That's about the extent of it. If you didn't get noticed by a scout or at least have some game film where you look good that you can provide, you're in tough. Coaches and GMs don't have time to give 300 guys a workout. The pro scouting network is vast, even at the CFL level. If you never got noticed making an impact on the field, chances are you just aren't good enough. The idea that any non-drafted player can just "go up to Canada" may well be prevalent in your circles (hell, hosts of major network sports radio in the States often infer this when they say stuff like "Tim Tebow should just go be an all-star QB in Canada"), but that doesn't make it any less false.
 

DanielPlainview

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Apr 28, 2009
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We're not talking about some random college players, but guys who were scouted by NFL teams, went through workouts, pro days, had meetings with teams, talked with coaches regularly, etc.
 

Newsworthy

Registered User
Jan 28, 2018
4,253
982
USA
An agent can cold call CFL teams and try to get his guy an off-season workout, maybe a mini camp invite. That's about the extent of it. If you didn't get noticed by a scout or at least have some game film where you look good that you can provide, you're in tough. Coaches and GMs don't have time to give 300 guys a workout. The pro scouting network is vast, even at the CFL level. If you never got noticed making an impact on the field, chances are you just aren't good enough. The idea that any non-drafted player can just "go up to Canada" may well be prevalent in your circles (hell, hosts of major network sports radio in the States often infer this when they say stuff like "Tim Tebow should just go be an all-star QB in Canada"), but that doesn't make it any less false.
I think the Summer league starting in 2017.
That's a combined effort to scout players. And you can't be serious if you think practice squad team would prevail
vs a top NCAA team.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,352
  • But your argument is that those with "NFL experience" would dominate.
  • Even though a lot of the players your getting where in NFL camps or were NFL cuts. Then you ignore the obvious which is second and third string NFL players have no reason to go to the CF L and rarely are in their prime when they attempt to resurrect their careers The CF L isn't getting quality former players.
  • Guys like Cam Wake are the exception rather than the rule.
It's a QB driven league. The top end talent at the major colleges are way superior.
Many CF L players weren't even drafted by the NFL.
Some were late rd picks.
On your last point I'll say this. You need to remember that the CFL has an import rule.
The three best receivers in the CFL last year went to non major football colleges. Those guys would be eaten alive if they played Alabama. One of Manziels Wrs on the TiCats Jalen Saunders was a failed NY Jets mid rd pick a few years ago. He put up very good numbers in college.
Your under estimating the talent of NCAA major division 1.
An NCAA all star team vs a CF L ALL STAR TEAM.
NCAA all day with easily superior talent.
i Also would place money on a top college program like last years Sooners over your Grey Cup winner.

-If the CFL was so terrible that their teams would lose to a college team, why wouldn't former NFL starters (and there have been plenty of those in the CFL) just set the league on fire? Former NFL 1st round pick Daquan Bowers played for my Eskimos last year. He was decent, nothing special. Shouldn't a player with that kind of pedigree utterly dominate a bunch of opponents who were allegedly just scrubs in college?

-Exactly, a lot of CFLers are NFL cuts. This supports the idea that the NFL is giving the top 5% of NCAA players a look, and the lesser of that group is what makes up the CFL. And yeah, some were indeed late round NFL picks. Do you realize who freaking good you need to be for an NFL team to spend a draft pick on you?

-Not every great player comes from a P5 conference, or even Div. 1. If a guy wants to get playing time and actually develop, he might be better off being a starter for four years at a lesser program rather than seeing spot duty at a major school. There are countless non-P5 graduates in the NFL, stars among them.

-An NCAA All-Star Team probably would beat a CFL all star team team. And they'd certainly beat Alabama or Oklahoma by a lot of touchdowns.

-I really think as much as you may be underestimating the CFL, you and KesselMania are just vastly over-estimating how good an NCAA team is. Football is a team game. A roster needs to be 30 men deep. A great NCAA team will have a few guys better than CFL caliber, and a few others on par with CFLers. After that, the advantage is overwhelming for the pro team.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,352
I think the Summer league starting in 2017.
That's a combined effort to scout players. And you can't be serious if you think practice squad team would prevail
vs a top NCAA team.

If you can find even one coach/scout/manager/etc employed by an NFL team who agrees that Alabama could even compete with, let alone beat, a team of practice squad NFLers, I'll re-evaluate my position.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,352
I guess we'll see how long of a leash Masoli is on now. I was a little surprised he didn't play yesterday. Perhaps a smart move by Jones to quell any ideas of a QB controversy right out of the gate.
 

Riggins

Registered User
Jul 12, 2002
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Vancouver, BC
https://www.tsn.ca/moon-carter-expect-manziel-to-struggle-in-cfl-1.1092846

Carter, whose son, Duron Carter, is one of the best players in the CFL as a member of the Saskatchewan Roughriders, gave Freeman three reasons why he isn't expecting much from Manziel in the CFL:
1. He believes the CFL is better than the Southeastern Conference (SEC), the conference that Manziel starred in while playing collegiately with the Aggies, along with the other conferences in college football.

I know many Americans who don't know any better like to crap on the CFL. A couple of NFL hall of famers who do know better can educate you. I'm someone who thinks the CFL is bush league in many ways (officiating, some of the rules, etc.) so I'm far from a CFL homer.

Someone in this thread compared the CFL to Texas high school. :laugh:
 
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Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
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https://www.tsn.ca/moon-carter-expect-manziel-to-struggle-in-cfl-1.1092846



I know many Americans who don't know any better like to crap on the CFL. A couple of NFL hall of famers who do know better can educate you. I'm someone who thinks the CFL is bush league in many ways (officiating, some of the rules, etc.) so I'm far from a CFL homer.

Someone in this thread compared the CFL to Texas high school. :laugh:

It is almost universally fans, and media who never played football, that will spout off about how weak the CFL is. Practically every player who ever played in both pro leagues has mentioned that the CFL is a lot tougher than it is given credit for. I don't listen to much American media besides Jim Rome, but by the sounds of it a lot of people are just assuming Manziel will be an instant star. It's not surprising that guys who are actually in the know like Carter and Moon are saying pump the brakes. I'm sure S-E-C! honk will be all over CC for disrespecting them now!
 

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