Signing(s): Johnny Manziel signs with Hamilton (CFL)...then traded to MTL...now released

[m9]

The import rules are a good point - the CFL is very watered down because half the league has to be Canadian.

But it's still a talented league, and yes far above the NCAA. I do think the best teams in NCAA would be a bit more competitive vs the worst CFL teams than has been suggested above though, depending on the rules used.

 

[Newsworthy]

Did Manziel look good in preseason so far

 

[chaosrevolver]

Did Manziel look good in preseason so far

He looked fine in his limited time against Toronto. His center was awful and Manziel was definitely a bit rusty and had to adjust to the different game, but he hardly looked out of place.

 

[Newsworthy]

I feel Hamilton signed him to be the eventual starter

 

[DanielPlainview]

CFL fans are ridiculous. Your teams would not beat a top level NCAA program, like Alabama or Ohio State. They have at least a dozen future early round NFL picks plus many lower level guys that are still on par and better than most CFL players.

Many NCAA players forego playing in the CFL because the league doesn't pay well enough, very few players ever make the jump from the CFL to the NFL (so any potential appeal as a springboard league isn't really there), and/or they simply don't want to live in Canada.

Manziel is certainly rusty, but I guarantee after a few weeks he'll be running around like he's back at A&M, looking somewhat like he did in college. Because that's the level of talent he's surrounded by.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

CFL fans are ridiculous. Your teams would not beat a top level NCAA program, like Alabama or Ohio State. They have at least a dozen future early round NFL picks plus many lower level guys that are still on par and better than most CFL players.

Many NCAA players forego playing in the CFL because the league doesn't pay well enough, very few players ever make the jump from the CFL to the NFL (so any potential appeal as a springboard league isn't really there), and/or they simply don't want to live in Canada.

Manziel is certainly rusty, but I guarantee after a few weeks he'll be running around like he's back at A&M, looking somewhat like he did in college. Because that's the level of talent he's surrounded by.

Having a bunch of future high NFL draft picks means diddly squat, because they are all 18-22 years old. A team of grown ass men with several years of pro experience under their belts would make fools of a bunch of college kids, even if some of them are future NFL first rounders. Until you find an NCAA team with a dozen seniors who are day-one NFL starters, that team is not going to compete with any pro team.

Edit to add: There's no doubt that some players forgo the CFL in favour of beginning a regular civilian career, but I doubt the number is all that high, and it certainly wouldn't be guys who still figure they have any shot at all of cracking an NFL roster one day. CFL salaries are of course peanuts compared to the NFL, but the league minimum is still about $40,000 USD. That's not too bad for a little over 6 months of work, and I doubt all that many can step right out of college and into a job that is paying seven grand a month.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Age really doesn't matter. The level of talent going to the NFL in the first few rounds is generally on a level rarely seen in the CFL and the talent in the middle rounds would be stars in the league. The CFL is operating with guys who at best are 5th round picks but more often then not guys the league wouldn't even draft. You severely under-estimate the level of talent at top level NCAA programs and are dramatically inflating the importance of "grown man experience". No amount of experience is going to help a CFL lineman block guys like Joey Bosa or JJ Watt, both who came from big programs, whether they're 21 or 28.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Age really doesn't matter. The level of talent going to the NFL in the first few rounds is generally on a level rarely seen in the CFL and the talent in the middle rounds would be stars in the league. The CFL is operating with guys who at best are 5th round picks but more often then not guys the league wouldn't even draft. You severely under-estimate the level of talent at top level NCAA programs and are dramatically inflating the importance of "grown man experience". No amount of experience is going to help a CFL lineman block guys like Joey Bosa or JJ Watt, both who came from big programs, whether they're 21 or 28.

JJ Watt or Joey Bosa is one player on a defense made of 11 starting players, and a handful more that see significant numbers of snaps. There are no college defenses fielding more than 1 or 2 players that have that kind of impact. And yes, age does matter. You can find the occasional freak like a Watt who is so physically gifted that he would still be a handful even at just 21 years old, but the vast majority of freshmen and sophomores are not physically mature enough to compete against 25+ year old pros, even if they are eventual first round picks.

 

[Newsworthy]

CFL fans are ridiculous. Your teams would not beat a top level NCAA program, like Alabama or Ohio State. They have at least a dozen future early round NFL picks plus many lower level guys that are still on par and better than most CFL players.

Many NCAA players forego playing in the CFL because the league doesn't pay well enough, very few players ever make the jump from the CFL to the NFL (so any potential appeal as a springboard league isn't really there), and/or they simply don't want to live in Canada.

Manziel is certainly rusty, but I guarantee after a few weeks he'll be running around like he's back at A&M, looking somewhat like he did in college. Because that's the level of talent he's surrounded by.

I agree with you.

 

[Newsworthy]

JJ Watt or Joey Bosa is one player on a defense made of 11 starting players, and a handful more that see significant numbers of snaps. There are no college defenses fielding more than 1 or 2 players that have that kind of impact. And yes, age does matter. You can find the occasional freak like a Watt who is so physically gifted that he would still be a handful even at just 21 years old, but the vast majority of freshmen and sophomores are not physically mature enough to compete against 25+ year old pros, even if they are eventual first round picks.

Sorry I can't agree with that. CFL has rookies also. Guys like Russel Wilson, Goff, Trubisky, Wentz, Luck and Prescott stepped right in. Not only players in college are kids either. I'm not sure where you get that from and the NCAA is practically a minor league system for the NFL

 

[DanielPlainview]

JJ Watt or Joey Bosa is one player on a defense made of 11 starting players, and a handful more that see significant numbers of snaps.

The point concerns the level of talent. You want to claim experience makes up for ability. It may if the levels of talent are close, but it most certainly does not when there is a large disparity.

There are no college defenses fielding more than 1 or 2 players that have that kind of impact.

Maybe, but it doesn't take a team of top 10 overall picks to compete with a CFL team.

And yes, age does matter. You can find the occasional freak like a Watt who is so physically gifted that he would still be a handful even at just 21 years old, but the vast majority of freshmen and sophomores are not physically mature enough to compete against 25+ year old pros, even if they are eventual first round picks.

If we were talking about HS players, sure, but most college starters are going to be 20-22 years old. And the Freshman and Sophomores that do start for top programs are more than likely going to be physically advanced for their age.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

The point concerns the level of talent. You want to claim experience makes up for ability. It may if the levels of talent are close, but it most certainly does not when there is a large disparity.

The level of top end raw talent isn't really in question. Indeed, top NCAA programs do typically have a few guys that are more talented than a regular CFLer, or even a star CFLer. The issue is that football is played 11 vs 11, or 12 vs 12 under Canadian rules. After those first few high NFL draft picks, the vastly superior depth of the CFL team is going to be the overriding factor. Even a program like Alabama that is practically a factory of pro football players is only getting a few guys per graduating class drafted to the NFL in most years. So there's still going to be several guys on the field that aren't pro-caliber, and they would be exploited badly by a team made up of 100% pro caliber players. Especially since most of those are seasoned veterans.

A strategy against Alabama would be pretty straightforward. Don't throw at Minkah Fitzpatrick, who would certainly be the best safety in the CFL. But a QB like Mike Reilly or Bo-Levi Mitchell would pick apart the rest of the secondary with ease. They'd face some pressure from Alabama's beastly linemen, but they get the ball way much quicker than a typical SEC QB, so that would be mitigated. Jalen Hurts couldn't move the ball against Georgia's defense, who had two guys drafted. I honestly doubt he would score a point against a CFL defense. Alabama could probably pick up some first downs by running the ball behind their behemoth offensive line, but it wouldn't take long for the CFL team to just stack the box and make them throw. Calvin Ridley is the only credible threat through the air so he'd get doubled, and I doubt any other Alabama receivers could get open enough against pro defensive backs for a Hurts-caliber QB to complete passes with any regularity.

Maybe, but it doesn't take a team of top 10 overall picks to compete with a CFL team.

No, but it would certainly take a team that consisted almost entirely of future pros, and a majority of them seniors.

If we were talking about HS players, sure, but most college starters are going to be 20-22 years old. And the Freshman and Sophomores that do start for top programs are more than likely going to be physically advanced for their age.

Being physically advanced might help, but those thousands of extra reps and countless extra hours being coached up and taught to read plays run by much more complex pro offenses and defenses is going to give the pro player a huge advantage.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Some players aren't good enough to play professionally. But several players in NCAA who are good enough to play in CFL choose not to play there.
IMO the import ratio rule effects the talent level in Canada.
The stars are mostly coming from NCAA college football and the best go to the NFL. The CFL is getting leftovers who are terrific athletes. It's a different game and it's hard to evaluate.

This. They are two different games.

 

[DanielPlainview]

The level of top end raw talent isn't really in question. Indeed, top NCAA programs do typically have a few guys that are more talented than a regular CFLer, or even a star CFLer. The issue is that football is played 11 vs 11, or 12 vs 12 under Canadian rules. After those first few high NFL draft picks, the vastly superior depth of the CFL team is going to be the overriding factor. Even a program like Alabama that is practically a factory of pro football players is only getting a few guys per graduating class drafted to the NFL in most years. So there's still going to be several guys on the field that aren't pro-caliber, and they would be exploited badly by a team made up of 100% pro caliber players. Especially since most of those are seasoned veterans.

A strategy against Alabama would be pretty straightforward. Don't throw at Minkah Fitzpatrick, who would certainly be the best safety in the CFL. But a QB like Mike Reilly or Bo-Levi Mitchell would pick apart the rest of the secondary with ease. They'd face some pressure from Alabama's beastly linemen, but they get the ball way much quicker than a typical SEC QB, so that would be mitigated. Jalen Hurts couldn't move the ball against Georgia's defense, who had two guys drafted. I honestly doubt he would score a point against a CFL defense. Alabama could probably pick up some first downs by running the ball behind their behemoth offensive line, but it wouldn't take long for the CFL team to just stack the box and make them throw. Calvin Ridley is the only credible threat through the air so he'd get doubled, and I doubt any other Alabama receivers could get open enough against pro defensive backs for a Hurts-caliber QB to complete passes with any regularity.



No, but it would certainly take a team that consisted almost entirely of future pros, and a majority of them seniors.



Being physically advanced might help, but those thousands of extra reps and countless extra hours being coached up and taught to read plays run by much more complex pro offenses and defenses is going to give the pro player a huge advantage.

You are criminally overrating the level of talent at the CFL. I don't think you truly understand how big of a gulf there is here.

The CFL's top 3 leading WRs in 2017 were guys who played college ball at Concordia University in Minnesota, Cornell, and Florida International, went undrafted by the NFL, and pinged around NFL training camps before landing in the CFL. That's the level of talent you have in your regular top program NCAA player.

 

[Newsworthy]

You are criminally overrating the level of talent at the CFL. I don't think you truly understand how big of a gulf there is here.

The CFL's top 3 leading WRs in 2017 were guys who played college ball at Concordia University in Minnesota, Cornell, and Florida International, went undrafted by the NFL, and pinged around NFL training camps before landing in the CFL. That's the level of talent you have in your regular top program NCAA player.

All this tells me is they aren't good enough for the NFL.
And no none of those schools are major colleges. It shows me that the CFL dumpster dive.

 

[Newsworthy]

The level of top end raw talent isn't really in question. Indeed, top NCAA programs do typically have a few guys that are more talented than a regular CFLer, or even a star CFLer. The issue is that football is played 11 vs 11, or 12 vs 12 under Canadian rules. After those first few high NFL draft picks, the vastly superior depth of the CFL team is going to be the overriding factor. Even a program like Alabama that is practically a factory of pro football players is only getting a few guys per graduating class drafted to the NFL in most years. So there's still going to be several guys on the field that aren't pro-caliber, and they would be exploited badly by a team made up of 100% pro caliber players. Especially since most of those are seasoned veterans.

A strategy against Alabama would be pretty straightforward. Don't throw at Minkah Fitzpatrick, who would certainly be the best safety in the CFL. But a QB like Mike Reilly or Bo-Levi Mitchell would pick apart the rest of the secondary with ease. They'd face some pressure from Alabama's beastly linemen, but they get the ball way much quicker than a typical SEC QB, so that would be mitigated. Jalen Hurts couldn't move the ball against Georgia's defense, who had two guys drafted. I honestly doubt he would score a point against a CFL defense. Alabama could probably pick up some first downs by running the ball behind their behemoth offensive line, but it wouldn't take long for the CFL team to just stack the box and make them throw. Calvin Ridley is the only credible threat through the air so he'd get doubled, and I doubt any other Alabama receivers could get open enough against pro defensive backs for a Hurts-caliber QB to complete passes with any regularity.



No, but it would certainly take a team that consisted almost entirely of future pros, and a majority of them seniors.



Being physically advanced might help, but those thousands of extra reps and countless extra hours being coached up and taught to read plays run by much more complex pro offenses and defenses is going to give the pro player a huge advantage.

NO the exploited Alabama players are the guys playing in the CFL

 

[Kyle McMahon]

You are criminally overrating the level of talent at the CFL. I don't think you truly understand how big of a gulf there is here.

The CFL's top 3 leading WRs in 2017 were guys who played college ball at Concordia University in Minnesota, Cornell, and Florida International, went undrafted by the NFL, and pinged around NFL training camps before landing in the CFL. That's the level of talent you have in your regular top program NCAA player.

So better than almost every somewhat recent Alabama receiver besides the one big star they typically have at the position? And that's not a shot at Alabama; you have to be very, very good to even make it to a CFL training camp. Like, among the top 5% of the NCAA good. And you are still making the supposition that a 20-21 year old who has never gone through a single pro camp, never gone through practices against pro offenses/defenses, much less actually played one snap of football against other pros is on the same level as a guy at age 28 who had been doing those things for years. Unless you are talented enough to step into the NFL and start games as a rookie, your talent is not making up for that huge advantage.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

NO the exploited Alabama players are the guys playing in the CFL

No, they're 9-to-5-ing it with the rest of us. There are almost no former Crimson Tide players in the CFL.

 

[DanielPlainview]

So better than almost every somewhat recent Alabama receiver besides the one big star they typically have at the position?

No, about par or worse.

And that's not a shot at Alabama; you have to be very, very good to even make it to a CFL training camp.

Relative to the guys sitting in the stands, yes. But otherwise the evidence suggests this is not the case.

Like, among the top 5% of the NCAA good.

There are 130 FBS teams (60 power 5, 70 group of 6). If we suppose each team takes advantage of their 85 scholarships, plus a half-dozen walk-ons, that's 11,830 players. 5% is about 590 players, half of which will be drafted or signed by the NFL as undrafted FA. Most of the rest will give up on football entirely. Some of them try Arena Football or the CFL.

The error in your thinking is that you assume it must be the rest of that 590 that then tries out for the CFL. That is simply not the case. Some of them do, some don't. The different rules, the level of pay, simply being in Canada, and the overall lack of evidence that playing the CFL will get one into the NFL all play a role in their decision to walk away from the game and utilize their college degrees or whatever it is they wish to do.

And you are still making the supposition that a 20-21 year old who has never gone through a single pro camp, never gone through practices against pro offenses/defenses, much less actually played one snap of football against other pros is on the same level as a guy at age 28 who had been doing those things for years. Unless you are talented enough to step into the NFL and start games as a rookie, your talent is not making up for that huge advantage.

More like 20-23 year olds, many of who are greatly more athletic and talented than their opposition. Age and experience only go so far. It doesn't take a rookie being capable of starting for an NFL team to make him vastly superior to the typical CFL player.

You really do not grasp how big a gulf there is between the levels of football and where the CFL actually stands. I would bet in a few years both the AAF and XFL will have better teams than the CFL because so many more of the American players who would have simply stopped playing football will continue on.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

No, about par or worse.

What basis do you have to suggest this? If Alabama's depth receivers were good enough to supplant CFL starters upon graduating, they would do so.

Relative to the guys sitting in the stands, yes. But otherwise the evidence suggests this is not the case.

What evidence? The vast majority of NCAA players aren't good enough to get invited to a CFL training camp. This is a simple numbers game. You seem to be under some sort of bizarre belief that after the crop of graduates that get an NFL opportunity, the next guys in line all just retire from football.

There are 130 FBS teams (60 power 5, 70 group of 6). If we suppose each team takes advantage of their 85 scholarships, plus a half-dozen walk-ons, that's 11,830 players. 5% is about 590 players, half of which will be drafted or signed by the NFL as undrafted FA. Most of the rest will give up on football entirely. Some of them try Arena Football or the CFL.

Yes, most will indeed give up on football - all of the ones who don't get offered any sort of opportunity by a pro team...which is like 95% of them. They don't have any further options. The ones that try CFL or arena football are the ones that can't quite make it in the NFL. It is illogical to suggest otherwise.

The error in your thinking is that you assume it must be the rest of that 590 that then tries out for the CFL. That is simply not the case. Some of them do, some don't. The different rules, the level of pay, simply being in Canada, and the overall lack of evidence that playing the CFL will get one into the NFL all play a role in their decision to walk away from the game and utilize their college degrees or whatever it is they wish to do.

Unless you have evidence that hundreds upon hundreds of NCAA graduates turn down invites to CFL training camps, there is no logical reason to assume it isn't mainly the rest of the 590. A lot of players in the CFL passed through NFL camps or spent a season or two on an NFL practice roster. This would certainly suggest most of the trickle down to the CFL is indeed the lower portion of that top 5%. You're kidding yourself if you think a whole bunch of SEC graduates are saying "no thanks" to professional offers in order to immediately pursue civilian careers as soon as the 7th round of the NFL draft ends without their name being called.

More like 20-23 year olds, many of who are greatly more athletic and talented than their opposition. Age and experience only go so far. It doesn't take a rookie being capable of starting for an NFL team to make him vastly superior to the typical CFL player.

A rookie who is an NFL bench warmer or on the practice squad is not better than an established CFL veteran. He probably will be in a couple years, but it take time to develop. There is a reason that many players who go on to good NFL careers only see limited numbers of snaps as rookies. They are simply not ready for the speed and complexity of the pro game until they get in a solid year of practice. How they would perform in a skills competition is irrelevant.

You really do not grasp how big a gulf there is between the levels of football and where the CFL actually stands. I would bet in a few years both the AAF and XFL will have better teams than the CFL because so many more of the American players who would have simply stopped playing football will continue on.

If the quality of the CFL was as terrible as you seem to think, it's reasonable to assume that guys who actually spent time in the NFL would come in and dominate the league. This is not the case, and examples are beyond numerous.

 

[DanielPlainview]

It has nothing to do with dominating. The players that lead the CFL in stats production that come from the US are mostly former NFL training camp cuts or practice squad members. In college, they were not the stars of their teams. Those are the BEST in the CFL.
Your average CFL player is not better than a typical big program player, let alone players who will go on to be drafted in the 3rd or 4th round, let alone the players that will be taken in the 2nd or 1st.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Lol gotta give KesselMania a little credit. The argument that the VAST MAJORITY of players quit playing football rather than play CFL. This a new desperate attempt to argue that NCAA is somehow better than CFL. It makes no sense at all. Those that argue any NCAA team could compete with a CFL team continue to grasp at straws and flat out make things up to try to justify their flawed viewpoint. A basic understanding of how not only development but elementary math tells you how much better the CFL is, but keep on believing what you want.

Just think about it in hockey terms. Even if a CHL team had a 17 year Crosby or McDavid, and a few other players that will eventually be better than anyone on a KHL team, the KHL teams depth and experience will run roughshod over a CHL. Since those few upper echelon players are a)not yet at peak and b)not enough when you consider that the whole KHL team is made up on gifted junior players 3-12 years ago, even if not quite top end talent and the CHL will have only a few top end players.

 

[DanielPlainview]

You need to provide some evidence that hundreds of NCAA players every year after the draft, after training camp cuts, and after pre-season cuts apply for and are rejected by the CFL on account of their level of skill. Otherwise, you're talking fantasy.

I've known several players who fell just outside of being drafted. They were scouted. They were invited to pro days and workouts. They talked to a number of teams. It just didn't work out. None of them even contemplated moving to Canada. It's anecdote, yes, but there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that is closer to the norm than this made up hierarchy you've constructed in your head to build the CFL up.

And the argument isn't that the NCAA is better than the CFL, but that the elite programs, like Ohio State, Alabama, LSU, etc. - the schools that produce a large amount of NFL talent - would field teams that would beat a CFL team.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

The very idea that you "apply for" the CFL invalidates the entire argument you try to make. That's not how it works. CFL teams invite you, not the other way around.

By the way every CFL teams run open try-out days all over the US every year. Hundreds try-out, a few MIGHT get rookie camp invites.

Your the one making a ludicrous claim that hundreds of players are attempted to be signed each yeah but they all turn down the CFL. You have the burden of proof there.

 

[Newsworthy]

What basis do you have to suggest this? If Alabama's depth receivers were good enough to supplant CFL starters upon graduating, they would do so.



What evidence? The vast majority of NCAA players aren't good enough to get invited to a CFL training camp. This is a simple numbers game. You seem to be under some sort of bizarre belief that after the crop of graduates that get an NFL opportunity, the next guys in line all just retire from football.



Yes, most will indeed give up on football - all of the ones who don't get offered any sort of opportunity by a pro team...which is like 95% of them. They don't have any further options. The ones that try CFL or arena football are the ones that can't quite make it in the NFL. It is illogical to suggest otherwise.



Unless you have evidence that hundreds upon hundreds of NCAA graduates turn down invites to CFL training camps, there is no logical reason to assume it isn't mainly the rest of the 590. A lot of players in the CFL passed through NFL camps or spent a season or two on an NFL practice roster. This would certainly suggest most of the trickle down to the CFL is indeed the lower portion of that top 5%. You're kidding yourself if you think a whole bunch of SEC graduates are saying "no thanks" to professional offers in order to immediately pursue civilian careers as soon as the 7th round of the NFL draft ends without their name being called.



A rookie who is an NFL bench warmer or on the practice squad is not better than an established CFL veteran. He probably will be in a couple years, but it take time to develop. There is a reason that many players who go on to good NFL careers only see limited numbers of snaps as rookies. They are simply not ready for the speed and complexity of the pro game until they get in a solid year of practice. How they would perform in a skills competition is irrelevant.



If the quality of the CFL was as terrible as you seem to think, it's reasonable to assume that guys who actually spent time in the NFL would come in and dominate the league. This is not the case, and examples are beyond numerous.

The quality of the CFL players are equivalent to practice squad guys with a few exceptions.
If the quality of the CFL was so great your best players would come to the NFL and never look back.