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John Vanbiesbrouck is the new director of hockey ops for USA Hockey

Discussion in 'International Tournaments' started by TheDoldrums, May 25, 2018.

  1. Art of Sedinery

    Art of Sedinery Registered User

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    Begin repeatedly told that he shouldn't have this very important and highly public job doesn't mean he can't earn a living... but still doesn't get it.

    Not to mention the guys earned over $21 million in his NHL career, doubt he needs this job to put food on the table.
     
  2. 93LEAFS

    93LEAFS Registered User

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    Fair enough, and thanks for your opinion on me.

    I just can't see how a government body would hire him from an optics standpoint. If there is ever a close call on a player from an African-American background for a spot on the team, and he's the last cut, its a disaster and this all gets dragged up again. I also really don't think Beezer lost too much. He got kicked out of the OHL which was a sizable punishment but got a job as a commentator within a year.

    Look, I know there are people with similar views in positions of power and have never been caught. But, Beezer was dumb enough to get caught.
     
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  3. Art of Sedinery

    Art of Sedinery Registered User

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    And as was stated several times, getting caught saying the word is one thing, it's a whole other to intentionally demean a young man with it for whom you are a leader, mentor and role model.
     
  4. AmericanDream

    AmericanDream Adopted Canadian

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    I think all of us have said this decision isn't the most ideal one, and that USA Hockey is going to hear **** on it. they could have announced it better with a letter from Beezer himself which could have gone a long way..or could have picked someone else a bit more qualified lol!

    I will give the guy a chance to prove those right or wrong, he deserves whatever opportunity comes his way as over 15 years never heard a bad thing since on the guy...no crimes committed and no careers destroyed. it might not look good to some, and that is fine, but have to give the guy a chance to give back and hopefully be a positive change for a lot of kids moving forward.
     
  5. Xokkeu

    Xokkeu Registered User

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    There's a huge difference in intent.
     
  6. Xokkeu

    Xokkeu Registered User

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    None of those things are related except the Shane Doan issue. The man doesn't need to be banned for life, but putting him in charge of your organization is like putting Heatley in charge of drivers ed.
     
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  7. Xokkeu

    Xokkeu Registered User

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    For me that's the issue. Is he really so far and away the best candidate that it's worth dealing with this PR nightmare? I do not think so.

    I won't assume anyone's background here, and I'm not targeting anyone specifically. but I do know that in general for white people its truly hard to comprehend how this is interpreted by black people or other minorities. I play in a league with one black player. One in a league of 15 teams. I've thankfully never heard that word because it would probably end up in a brawl, but people stare, they whisper. It's not a secret. When you hire a guy who used that word in that context, and then a bunch of white guys (USA Hockey) turn around and say "hey let bye gones be bye gones," it's no big deal. It does nothing to help negate that kind of behavior. So thats why I ask, is his so qualified to otherwise negate that perception?
     
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  8. Claypool

    Claypool Registered User

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    Hello? Dany Heatley literally killed his own teammate through ignorance and stupidity. It doesn't get much worse than that. The hockey community still forgave him. I don't see why they (we) can't do the same for Vanbiesbrouck.

    So you're more worried about how this hire looks than how it will actually play out? What do you think is going to happen? Do you think Vanbiesbrouck is going to consciously (or subconsciously) start pulling back on minority-related hockey programs in the U.S.? Do you think he's going to seriously recommend Seth Jones not be on the Olympic team? Why does this hire worry you so much beyond the "look" of it?
     
  9. kabidjan18

    kabidjan18 Registered User

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    Are you seriously arguing that as long as the word is used with innocuous intent that it would be alright, or even non-implicative?

    Firstly, let's address the obvious. I've never met an African American person who was like "oh, as long as you use that word in a careless throw-away manner, it's totally cool!" At least intuitively, it seems like intent would effect the severity or impropriety of a statement, but I don't think there's a solid case that intent is the borderline between implicative and acceptable.

    Second, the supreme court does not legislate or attempt to measure intent. Why? Again, exactly as I mentioned before. How do you make consistent parameters for legislating intent? It's virtually impossible. I believe Sandra Day O'Connor once suggested such a system for interpretation of establishment cases in a dissent, but that interpretation was never picked up by any other justices or legislators. Just like right now it's very hard to prosecute "bias" incidents. The nature of trying to determine someone intent requires such a heavy burden of proof, that one practically has to declare one's intent as one is actively pursuing one's intent in order to prove it in court. That's without bringing up the aforementioned problems with all the different variables, conflicting indicators and differing interpretations one might have on what actually constitutes a legitimate usage and an implicative usage. Whenever we try to make precise a system to legislate one way or the other, we always get either an excess of false negatives (like the current bias laws in the US), or false positives (my first post).

    So I think it is wisest to accept all such actions as highly improper, unprofessional, and to not guess at what the mental constitutions of unknown individuals may be. If you wish to create a system to show the usages which you employ are distinct from and more appropriate (or less cognitively revealing) than the usage than he employed, and can make it both precise and coherent, go ahead.
     
  10. Xokkeu

    Xokkeu Registered User

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    I’m arguing there’s a huge difference in intent. That’s why I said it.
     
  11. Xokkeu

    Xokkeu Registered User

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    That’s exactly why it worries me. It says to black and minority players you aren’t welcome in hockey. That you’ll need a police escort to enter the building.
     
  12. Claypool

    Claypool Registered User

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    Tell you what, if there is evidence that Vanbiesbrouck's hiring leads to a noticeable decline in participation of black hockey players at the international and local level, then by all means continue to criticize USA Hockey for this decision.

    Until then, you're wasting your energy complaining about something that hasn't even happened.
     
  13. Diamond Joe Quimby

    Diamond Joe Quimby A$AP Joffrey

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    Doesn't really need to be said. We feel like that consistently anyway.

    I agree with this. The move likely will not result in any kind of drop. Its hard to decrease what is already minimal.
     
  14. jj cale

    jj cale Registered User

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    I see Dany Heatleys past history being brought up here and I find that most interesting.

    A far more tragic incident and both parents found it in their heart to forgive him and they did this in their goodness and compassion as decent human beings almost immediately. Society also did not deem his actions as worthy of never operating a motor vehicle again either.

    Yet 15 years after what vambiesbrouck did(let's face facts as bad as it was it does not even compare to the death of losing a child, Daley has gone on to be a wealthy pro athlete, Snyder lost his life) some of us will not let what he did go and say he can never again have the right to run a hockey operation.

    I just don't get it, I really don't.
     
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  15. Uncle Rotter

    Uncle Rotter Registered User

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    Yeah, I'd be interested as well as to what makes him such a whiz (other than old boy's network reasons).
     
  16. vancityluongo

    vancityluongo Twin Benning Sponsor

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    This is a fair take, and I read that after making a more hostile post this morning so I deleted that one. Although consistently labeling the thoughts of anyone going against you as a SJW is no better than labeling you a racist for this post, but anyways...

    But it's not about second chances in an absolute sense - I agree with that completely - it's just about optics. Nobody would bring up Patrick Kane's digressions in his post hockey professional life unless he got hired at Uber. Someone else nailed it with the comment about Dany Heatley - he can and should be able to do anything in the world, without scrutiny, especially given that the Snyder family forgave him - except teach driver's ed or become the head of transportation at a major public company or something. Despite the correlation to the situation, even then if a member of the Snyder family came out and backed that Dany has been a consummate professional in the field of transportation which he's taken up as a passion blah blah blah...fair enough, that trumps all public scrutiny because who the **** are we to judge when the family most affected doesn't care.

    JVB has lived and worked a perfectly reasonable life since the incident as a private citizen. He probably didn't face much criticism at Muskegon, and fair enough. This job is just (rightfully) under similar scrutiny to a politician because he's a public face for the public governing body for hockey in the US. And even then, my and others questioning of the hiring isn't a shot at the individual - it's just calling out the body for not having the tact to realize that this would be an issue. If Mike Richter or some other 90's goalie was named to the position instead, despite being less qualified, this thread would be 10 posts long, not multiple pages. There would be no NY Post article. Etc.

    But that would be problematic/terrible to not hire the best person for the job because of an issue 15 years ago. If that's where you were going given that last comment, I agree 100%. But given that they've identified this person as the best candidate possible, why wouldn't they just organize for one of the reporters covering this announcement to reach out to Daley and get a quick comment and resolve the whole thing? How much effort would that take to shut down this whole issue and completely make it a non-issue rather than give us the ability to bicker about it?

    For a fringe sport that should have the singular organizational goal of trying to appeal to as many people as possible and grow the game - why the hell didn't they have that minimal amount of foresight? Like it or not, USA Hockey should have no reason to try and appeal to older generations that just dismiss this. Their primary core target base should be the very millenials and their children that stand to be most offended by this.
     
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  17. LiasAndersson

    LiasAndersson Banned

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  18. Xokkeu

    Xokkeu Registered User

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    That’s what I mean. It’s already a feeling and now it’s just reeenforced pointlessly
     
  19. Xokkeu

    Xokkeu Registered User

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    What has Vanbiesbrouck done to atone for his error over the past 15 years. Any history of working with minority outreach or any volunteer work? Or has just not got caught calling people ********?
     
  20. Dr Pepper

    Dr Pepper Registered User

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    Well it's not quite as crazy as naming Graham James the head coach of Canada's World Juniors team or something, but the optics here certainly aren't great either. :help:
     
  21. jj cale

    jj cale Registered User

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    I don't know, i havent been tracking John Vanbiesbroucks life over the last 15 years, I doubt anyone here has.

    I am assuming U.S .A hockey has a pretty good handle on what he has been doing though, and it seems whatever he has been doing has satisfied them enough that what he did 15 years ago is no longer a concern.

    Also, I don't think he has to have been working at any minority outreach project or volunteer work to have become a changed man with different attitudes and regret his past actions. It would be nice on his personal resume but i don't see it as being essential or anything.

    Geez, some of you guys are a tough crowd, holy ****, what does he have to do for you guys anyway?....................run into a burning building and save someones life before you will consider cutting the guy even a little slack in life for past mistakes.?

    I sure hope should any of you ever royally screw up in some capacity in life that your fellow man doesn't treat you like you are treating vanbiesbrouck.

    I have read your arguments here and they are legitimate ones considering the "optics" of how it could be perceived with his hiring but I just don't believe he should be tarred and feathered for life if he has changed. I am sure U.S.A Hockey is on top of who he is now and is convinced there is no problem and has changed. I am sure they are not that daft to have not done so.

    Give the guy a ****ing break!!
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
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  22. AmericanDream

    AmericanDream Adopted Canadian

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    :huh:

    calling someone a Social Justice Warrior is now the same as calling someone a racist? You lost me there...

    and I haven't called everyone against this a SJW, just those that think they are mightier than they are, more virtuous than others, those who have never had to live through mistakes calling for this man to never be in charge of a hockey program...sorry but those are SJW's and are bat **** crazy.

    I have no problems with anyone who says optics of this do not look good and have fears that it could hurt the growth of USA Hockey. I have no idea what will happen here, or how good/bad of a job the man will do, but I certainly think it isn't going to be an easy sell or climb for everyone involved and could have been avoided if they went with a guy maybe named Pat Lafontaine instead...I dunno..

    The rest of your post was real good, though again USA Hockey does not need to reach out to Daley, they weren't involved in this incident and have no say in it...they obviously want to move forward and not in the past like others seem to want. I do not agree at all with that, if Beezer wants to reach out in private, I am fine with that, hell he probably has over the years who knows..

    [Mod]
     
    Last edited by moderator stv11: May 30, 2018
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  23. toomuchsauce

    toomuchsauce Registered User

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    Bolded for accuracy.

    I'm curious - where would you draw the line? If we were talking about a newly-hired teacher at your child's school, would you say, "So what, it was 15 years ago?" and simply assume s/he has changed? Or would you ask for some evidence of that fact? Or, do you just not care about this specific type of misconduct? Because racism is not a "mistake." It is a set of values and beliefs. The "mistake" racists typically make is that they confess their racism to people who don't agree with them. That appears to be what happened to Vanbiesbrouck. I'm perfectly willing to believe he has changed and that he does not hold the beliefs associated with his prior conduct. However, to date, I have not seen any evidence of that. All we have is Beezer himself saying, "That's not who I am," but offering no evidence of why that's not who he is. And, further, offering no evidence of "who he is" in general.

    He does not need to run into a burning building to save a person of another race to prove he is extremely Not Racist anymore (perhaps you have been unduly influenced by the movie Crash). He could have simply said something along the lines of, "I recognize that my previous way of thinking was wrong. I've listened to people whose voices I previously ignored. I also recognize that hockey is not always the most inclusive place, and I am committed to upholding the humanity of all of people and fostering an inclusive environment within USA hockey."

    That would have shown some character in my opinion - we can't know if he even means it, it could have been empty platitudes - but it would have been *something*. And yet, that's not what he said. He just said, "Don't worry, I'm good, that's not me - no further questions."

    So, I'm extremely skeptical of this redemption narrative that people in this thread appear to have invented from whole cloth in order to justify this hiring, and, worse, excuse/ignore his prior behavior. And it pains me to say that, because, as an undersized goalie who grew up in New York in the 80's, I had a Vanbiesbrouck poster in my room as a kid. He was an inspiration to me as a hockey player. And, as a person who grew up in downstate New York in the 80's, and who improbably made it to NCAA hockey, I am very aware of the casual racism that exists in all-white circles - places like hockey locker rooms on Long Island, most towns on Long Island, et al. It's not possible to know which people really believed some of the things that they said, but I also know that not everyone said those things. It's not an accident. And Vanbiesbrouck was a fully grown adult when he said these things about a young man in his care. It's absolutely disturbing on multiple levels, and no one involved with USA Hockey has addressed it substantively. The impression given by USA Hockey is that they do not think this is a big deal. And, unfortunately, they are very wrong about that. It is a big deal. Nevertheless, they will get away with it is because hockey remains, basically, an entirely white place, and nobody will stand up to it. The wealthy white suburban parents who make up the "base" of USA Hockey membership (and, of which I am one)? LOL. They're not calling out USA Hockey leadership under any circumstances - wait, save one circumstance - when *their kid* doesn't make the cut at one of the summer select camps.
     
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  24. vancityluongo

    vancityluongo Twin Benning Sponsor

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    That's judging people based on a very limited view of them my man! Just as it would be an absurd accusation on very little basis for me to suggest that you're a racist because you don't see this in the same light (something that happens on every social media platform in existence, by the very people that you'd probably be right to label as SJWs), I don't think offering a perspective on why I think this is an optically poor decision makes me or anyone in this thread a SJW. If any of this comes across as preachy or virtue signalling; that's not the intention.

    I've already said I don't think they need to reach out to Daley. Not sure why that's a point of contention; it's just such a simple mitigation to what you admit is a situation where the optics don't look good from the outside. It doesn't matter that USA Hockey wasn't involved in the incident; they're choosing to hire the guy. They are the ones with their perception at stake. And on top of that, they're essentially a PR firm for the sport!! This wouldn't have even mattered if JVB was named athletic director for a university program or something. My only comment is that a body that should be a PR firm is doing a terrible job with their PR when multiple clear mitigation strategies were/are available.

    Here's another super simple example; would you ever hire a person without looking at their resume/CV? Most would say no; they'd need to get an assessment of their history. So say that the resume looks generally clean, but they have a mysterious gap in employment. At the interview they disclose that they had a fallout with their previous employer during that period and it actually resulted in some jail time. They did the time, bounced back, and they are now a productive member of society, but 15 years ago they did jail time. Would you hire this person without knowing what it was for? The candidate himself tells you that it's in the past and gives you a chance to contact that former employer to clear things up. You wouldn't have the slightest bit of curiosity to reach out to that former employer to ask for a character reference? It's not judging the guy forever, it's just doing your due diligence because if it turns out the guy has a serious conviction, that could really impact his standing with clients, and in turn, affect your business. It's the firm's job to do their due diligence and present positive optics to stakeholders (giving an honest, hardworking man who made a mistake a second chance, etc.) and the individual's responsibility to do their job and not let their past transgressions tarnish the new image that they have to work hard to cultivate.
     
    Last edited by moderator stv11: May 30, 2018
  25. toomuchsauce

    toomuchsauce Registered User

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    You don't say?!? Because here you are, conflating two completely unrelated things in order to attempt to make the point that racism doesn't matter by invoking a grieving family's capacity for human compassion on a completely unrelated issue. Perhaps you should delete this before someone asks the family you are referring to what they think of your post. Or maybe someone can delete it for you.
     

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