Johan Franzen - Third Highest Goal Scorer Of 2004 Draft

[Heaton]

To me it's a bit like the Roy vs Hasek debate.

Roy has the great career stats, while Hasek had the better peak.

However... Lidstrom in 01-02..at his peak, was pretty dominating too... so that's not exactly a good analogy.

The reason why I put Pronger and Robinson ahead is because these guys can do everything. Play every style you might possibly want to start a playoff run.

When your ace defensemen Robinson can beat you with end-to-end rushes, slapshots and great passes or big hits... and he can punch out Dave Schultz's lights and end the Broad Street Bullies' era...
Robinson, in many ways, was like Lidstrom offensively, but with the ability to hit like a Pronger and fight like a Shanahan (not often, but when he did... he could go toe-to-toe with anyone).

I don't care much about the stats and factoring for eras and all that BS.

Can you think of any defensemen that Pronger made look better like Lidstrom has throughout the years?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

ESPN 's Custance listed Franzen as the a candidate if compliance buyouts are allowed to range a couple of seasons, like what the NBA did.

It is paywalled, so cannot give you the whole list of guys but some interesting names on that list... Not sure if this is legit because of the paywall, but just the Franzen quote was as follows from the article.

GM Ken Holland has patiently saved cap space and may be able to capitalize on teams shedding salary this summer. If there's a window for a buyout beyond next season, Franzen becomes a candidate but his cap hit is still low enough at $4 million to tolerate his inconsistent play for now.

Of note Custance lives in the Detroit area and is pretty plugged in with the organization. So that is an interesting name to be tossed out. He didn't put it as highly likely even then, but that if the right circumstances were to arise and the right players hit the market Johan could be in trouble.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

ESPN 's Custance listed Franzen as the a candidate if compliance buyouts are allowed to range a couple of seasons, like what the NBA did.

It is paywalled, so cannot give you the whole list of guys but some interesting names on that list... Not sure if this is legit because of the paywall, but just the Franzen quote was as follows from the article.



Of note Custance lives in the Detroit area and is pretty plugged in with the organization. So that is an interesting name to be tossed out. He didn't put it as highly likely even then, but that if the right circumstances were to arise and the right players hit the market Johan could be in trouble.

Why would we buy Franzen out when Samuelsson isn't making much less and is much less valuable? Franzen has a long contract but the cap hit is pretty cheap for his production.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Why would we buy Franzen out when Samuelsson isn't making much less and is much less valuable? Franzen has a long contract but the cap hit is pretty cheap for his production.

I think it is just to sign the right kind of player, very low chance. For instance you know Bert and Sammy's deals are coming off the books in a year and a half at least we hope. I would suggest we move Franzen before buying him out, but whatever it seemed like something worth putting in this thread. As many know I am pretty far from the run Franzen out of town camp. I think it would be a poor move, but if that is what has to be done to sign a Perry, needless to say I won't shed any tears.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Can you think of any defensemen that Pronger made look better like Lidstrom has throughout the years?

This is largely a myth.

It's not just "Lidstrom" making defensemen better. It's the other top liners or second liners... In the early years, you've got Yzerman and Fedorov as your centers. In the later years you've got Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

What I can tell you about Pronger is that when he goes to teams, they get better.
When he leaves, they get worse.

 

[waltdetroit]

I thought Bourque was great, but always thought he was overrated (like Lidstrom from 205 on)

In my lifetime, I'd probably go:
Robinson, Pronger, Lidstrom, Stevens, Bourque

Just to point out that Robinson played on some really stacked teams, moreso than any other Norris winner I can think of in the past 40 years

It's really too bad Stevens never had the O stats to win a Norris but he was another guy like Pronger who made every team he was on better (Caps, Blues, Devils)

 

[Henkka]

This is largely a myth.

It's not just "Lidstrom" making defensemen better. It's the other top liners or second liners... In the early years, you've got Yzerman and Fedorov as your centers. In the later years you've got Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

What I can tell you about Pronger is that when he goes to teams, they get better.
When he leaves, they get worse.

At 2008 finals our line matching was Datsyuk+Zetterberg with Lebda-Lilja pairing, Filppula's 2nd line with Kronwall-Stuart and Lidström-Rafalski with either Draper's 3rd line or Helm's 4th line.

That's a perfect example how Lidström benefited playing "always" with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. That happened on the PP, but not ES.

Scotty Bowman did the exact same thing. Used the strongest defensive pairing with the weakest lines, to make a defensively balanced package. Of course Fedorov and Yzerman played many shifts together with Lidström, but when we used those weakest lines, Lidström was backing them. This is what every team does with their best defensive defenceman, and you know it.

 

[Heaton]

This is largely a myth.

It's not just "Lidstrom" making defensemen better. It's the other top liners or second liners... In the early years, you've got Yzerman and Fedorov as your centers. In the later years you've got Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

What I can tell you about Pronger is that when he goes to teams, they get better.
When he leaves, they get worse.

Right, and Lidstrom has allowed many of our forwards to play their game without consequence throughout his entire tenure. This isn't about Lidstrom doing everything, but there's really no reason to minimize Lidstrom's abilities, especially in terms of making defensemen like Lilja, Duchene and a bunch of other average to below average defensemen look much better than normal.

Does a lot of that have to do with the fact that Lidstrom played with the top forwards? Sure. But what top defensemen doesn't get the bulk of their time playing with top forwards?

As for your point about Pronger - that kinda goes without saying with any hall of fame player.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Just to point out that Robinson played on some really stacked teams, moreso than any other Norris winner I can think of in the past 40 years

It's really too bad Stevens never had the O stats to win a Norris but he was another guy like Pronger who made every team he was on better (Caps, Blues, Devils)

Absolutely he did. But I can say this... the Habs were my favorite teams right into the mid 80s, and even and even LONG after the glory days were gone, with Lafleur and Shutt and Dryden and Savard and Lapointe goine, Robinson was still a great defenseman.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Right, and Lidstrom has allowed many of our forwards to play their game without consequence throughout his entire tenure.

Tell me all the forwards we have who play without consequence?

This isn't about Lidstrom doing everything, but there's really no reason to minimize Lidstrom's abilities, especially in terms of making defensemen like Lilja, Duchene and a bunch of other average to below average defensemen look much better than normal.

He made average guys looks a little better than average. And really... Steve Duchesne wasn't chopped liver. Prior to his rough year in LA, guy was one of the best offensive defensemen in the league.

Does a lot of that have to do with the fact that Lidstrom played with the top forwards? Sure. But what top defensemen doesn't get the bulk of their time playing with top forwards?

Plenty of top defensemen play their entire career without getting a sniff of the kind of centers Lidstrom played with.
I'm not just talking offense, but defense.
And sure, steady Nick helped those guys. More important than Lidstrom's defensive skills, however, were his offensive skills. His great passing ability and his calm-under-pressure helped Detroit go from defense to offense quick. And that, IMO, was his single greatest quality.

As for your point about Pronger - that kinda goes without saying with any hall of fame player.

No it doesn't.
Not in hockey. Even among the great ones there are very few REAL difference makers.
Mike Gartner great goal scorer. Hall of Famer. Difference maker?

 

[RedWingsNow*]

At 2008 finals our line matching was Datsyuk+Zetterberg with Lebda-Lilja pairing, Filppula's 2nd line with Kronwall-Stuart and Lidström-Rafalski with either Draper's 3rd line or Helm's 4th line.

That's a perfect example how Lidström benefited playing "always" with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. That happened on the PP, but not ES.

Scotty Bowman did the exact same thing. Used the strongest defensive pairing with the weakest lines, to make a defensively balanced package. Of course Fedorov and Yzerman played many shifts together with Lidström, but when we used those weakest lines, Lidström was backing them.

I think you're misremembering things;
Check out this link:
http://timeonice.com/SC0708.html?GameNumber=30415&submit=Go

This is what every team does with their best defensive defenceman, and you know it.

Wrong.
The Wings philosophy, going back to the Bowman days, has been to match offensive lines against offensive lines.
And the reason why it's successful is because our best offensive centers are also great defensive centers.
Yzerman. Fedorov. Datsyuk. Zetterberg.

 

[Henkka]

I think you're misremembering things;
Check out this link:
http://timeonice.com/SC0708.html?GameNumber=30415&submit=Go

Check the away games where Babcock doesn't have the last shift. Game number 30416 (game 6). Then he splits the talent. At home games he can maximize the defence against strongest line like that Game 5 was.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Check the away games where Babcock doesn't have the last shift. Game number 30416 (game 6). Then he splits the talent. At home games he can maximize the defence against strongest line like that Game 5 was.

here's the next game
http://timeonice.com/SC0708.html?GameNumber=30416&submit=Go

booom.

Say uncle.

 

[ashenhigh]

here's the next game
http://timeonice.com/SC0708.html?GameNumber=30416&submit=Go

booom.

Say uncle.

There has been plenty of times when Babcock and Bowmen did exactly what Henkka is describing, especially during the 2007-2008 season. But no, obviously it wasn't a full-time strategy. However using the 2008 finals as an example as you did, originally citing that home game, is poor a one considering Babcock tried to match Zetterberg and Lidstrom against the Crosby line every time #87 hit the ice.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

There has been plenty of times when Babcock and Bowmen did exactly what Henkka is describing, especially during the 2007-2008 season. But no, obviously it wasn't a full-time strategy. However using the 2008 finals as an example as you did, originally citing that home game, is poor a one considering Babcock tried to match Zetterberg and Lidstrom against the Crosby line every time #87 hit the ice.

Look... go through icetime stats websites and compare how much icetime Lidstrom got with Z and D compared to Draper or Helm or Abdelkader.
It's not even close.

The larger point here is that Lidstrom has benefited from playing with some of the best two-way centers the league has seen in the last 25 years.

Henkaa tried to dispute that using 2008 matchups, and he's just dead wrong.

 

[Crymson]

Half serious. The guy is far less lazy than Franzen and way more talented. The way the Canadian media eviscerated the guy was hilarious and almost completely unwarranted.

The way you're praising the guy is hilarious and almost completely unwarranted.