Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM - Part II (Updates in First Post)

[AnimalMother73]

i miss Patrick Roy. wasn't afraid to put his balls on the table and was easily a better coach than Bednar.

While he's shown to be a better coach to date Roy has significantly blame for the state of the team right now. I recall someone quoting a GM in 2013 saying "Roy will run that franchise into the ground". I think he did. Sakic is certainly just as at fault here but don't want Roy back.....and am curious why he hasn't landed anywhere else, walking out on your last gig can't help.

 

[Foppa2118]

While he's shown to be a better coach to date Roy has significantly blame for the state of the team right now. I recall someone quoting a GM in 2013 saying "Roy will run that franchise into the ground". I think he did. Sakic is certainly just as at fault here but don't want Roy back.....and am curious why he hasn't landed anywhere else, walking out on your last gig can't help.

I think we know who's run the franchise into the ground at this point, and who wanted to make moves we all would love by now.

 

[JoemAvs]

I think we know who's run the franchise into the ground at this point, and who wanted to make moves we all would love by now.

Can't they just both suck horribly?

This mess was a team effort.

 

[VikingAv]

I think we know who's run the franchise into the ground at this point, and who wanted to make moves we all would love by now.

Yeah, like we love the Gelinas- and Boedker-trades. Both of them reeked of Roy. And it's not a big leap to think our pick at last years draft would have been Logan Brown instead of Jost.

We probably would have made a good Duchene-trade though, you're right about that.

Imo, this Sakic vs Roy debate is fruitless. Both of them are/were way in over their heads and the end result for this organization would have been the same no matter who's been calling the shots. Just a different path to the "goal".

Having the GM be reactionary, passive and indecisive is just as bad as having a doublerole of coach + GM/Executive like Roy and Tippett. In the latter role you'll end up almost always mixing the roles for the long-term detriment of the organization because of a desired short-term gain for the on-ice product. Like our 2016 deadline; those were moves a steady play-off team should do to push them into being a contender, not moves a team hoping to get two home games in the playoffs should do. And with Roy still here, I have no doubt he would be doing the same moves this year if we had been in the same position around the deadline.

 

[Foppa2118]

Can't they just both suck horribly?

This mess was a team effort.

It's possible, and I know that's some people's opinion. I just don't share that opinion.

I'm sure there were some negatives that Roy's responsible for. I just think the big things, and the majority of the blame for the state of the franchise, and the inability to address problem areas lie with Joe unfortunately.

 

[McMetal]

Let's not rewrite history here. Roy was not a good coach, and was often overaggressive on signings and trades. Bednar may be a bad, bad coach, but Roy wasn't brilliant either.

 

[Foppa2118]

Let's not rewrite history here. Roy was not a good coach, and was often overaggressive on signings and trades. Bednar may be a bad, bad coach, but Roy wasn't brilliant either.

If anything you're trying to write history based on your own opinion. Everything people tried to point to with Roy being a bad coach has been proven wrong with Bednar. Hates analytics. Needs a more disciplined system. Needs to change the breakout. The forwards and D are too spread out (Bednar literally started doing this halfway through the season, and the Pens did it last year in the playoffs).

Bednar came in and provided all of this and the team went from 82 points and the first bubble team in the West, to 48 points and dead last in the entire league by 21 points. With almost everyone on the roster having a career worst year. If anything there's an argument for Roy getting a crap team to overachieve not just in 2013-14 like we all agree on, but possibly every year he was here.

No one knows how much Joe and Patty were in agreement, or who's initial idea the "bad signings" and trades were. Yet people still want to just put it all on Roy.

In the end those trades and signings may not have been great, but they were far from team killers. Every team has their share of suspect moves and contracts. They absolutely could have built a competitive team around them with some foresight and competent moves.

Moves we know Patrick wanted to make and Joe didn't.

 

[AnimalMother73]

I think the approach (rebuild, younger & faster) has changed significantly since Roy left. Sakic may suck either way but I suspect Roy was predominantly win at all costs w/ veterans.

 

[Pokecheque]

Coaches can be bad in some ways, good in others. Roy was a great motivator, but a terrible tactician. And yes, it doesn't sound like he should ever be given managerial control in an organization ever again either (though I suspect he will, and I'd like to see how he does out of pure curiosity).

Bednar seemingly has the right systems and strategies, but man, his club sure seemed lackluster from the get-go. Again, he was also handed two completely broken-down vets in Beauchemin and Iginla, and a team that was simply waaaaaaay too slow and had no physicality to speak of.

We will see if Bednar can be the right kind of coach for this club. He has no excuses anymore, he will be allowed to hire his own assistants instead of inheriting a bunch of Roy's guys. I'm not expecting miracles at this point but if the team still slogs up and down the ice like a burgundy blob, then I'll be wanting his ouster as well.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Roy might do better with executive powers for an org under a different situation. Win now, open checkbook, prestige. Much like what he could do in Quebec, he could trade away every single draft pick because they could get kids to report and Euros to come over when many teams couldn't. He's not the right fit for a "rebuild" or whatever this is. Plus I agree coach and executive is a conflict of interest especially in our situation. It's better keeping the coaching and building separate.

 

[Foppa2118]

I think the approach (rebuild, younger & faster) has changed significantly since Roy left. Sakic may suck either way but I suspect Roy was predominantly win at all costs w/ veterans.

Roy might do better with executive powers for an org under a different situation. Win now, open checkbook, prestige. Much like what he could do in Quebec, he could trade away every single draft pick because they could get kids to report and Euros to come over when many teams couldn't. He's not the right fit for a "rebuild" or whatever this is. Plus I agree coach and executive is a conflict of interest especially in our situation. It's better keeping the coaching and building separate.

The moves Roy wanted to make that Joe did not were not win now moves. They were for the future, and they involved the team rebuilding instead of still trying to compete with the same core. Moves to get younger and faster, and improve the D core with a mobile new NHL style D man.

I would bet tons of money he wanted to do Barrie for Drouin at the time he was sitting out too, and Joe did not. Another younger, faster, smaller, new NHL style move.

There's been a fictitious story about Roy's preferred playing style (versus compensating for a team with weaknesses) and preferred players (versus using steady stop gap vets to teach the young core how to win until the GM patched the holes with legit top 4 D men for the future) and even his coaching style ever since he started.

Everyone even thought he would be a hardass, break everything in the room screamer and yeller that his players hated, and it couldn't be further from he truth. He was a very calm, cool and collected, always emphasizing the positives coach, that his players loved.

 

[Pokecheque]

He was calm (except for that AWESOME opening night meltdown on the glass) for the first year, then started to unravel a bit as time went on.

Roy sure seemed overly-enamored with size and strength. He and Joe put WAY too many big and slow guys on the roster before Joe reversed the trend late last year.

Again, I'd like to see Patrick with full control of a franchise just to see what he'd do. I personally think he'll fail, but I honestly don't want to see him fail.

One thing I miss for sure: Roy's transparency. It's practically back to Lacroix-style lockdown now. Roy is, if nothing else, a masterful communicator. Joe is anything but.

 

[Foppa2118]

He was calm (except for that AWESOME opening night meltdown on the glass) for the first year, then started to unravel a bit as time went on.

Roy sure seemed overly-enamored with size and strength. He and Joe put WAY too many big and slow guys on the roster before Joe reversed the trend late last year.

Again, I'd like to see Patrick with full control of a franchise just to see what he'd do. I personally think he'll fail, but I honestly don't want to see him fail.

One thing I miss for sure: Roy's transparency. It's practically back to Lacroix-style lockdown now. Roy is, if nothing else, a masterful communicator. Joe is anything but.

During the games he would get fired up for sure. Can't take that element of competitiveness out of him. I was referring to how he dealt with his players though.

 

[Papa Francouz]

Did the Avs hire Scott Young as an assistant coach? Thought I saw something about that on Twitter. Any idea what he would be in charge of, if he was indeed hired?

 

[Foppa2118]

Did the Avs hire Scott Young as an assistant coach? Thought I saw something about that on Twitter. Any idea what he would be in charge of, if he was indeed hired?

That would be very Avs like. They sent out some tweets about his career, and that he'll be inducted into the US Hall of Fame. Maybe that's it.

 

[McMetal]

That would be very Avs like. They sent out some tweets about his career, and that he'll be inducted into the US Hall of Fame. Maybe that's it.

Yeah, I think it's just because he's a former Avs player who won the Cup with them. Not much smoke there.

 

[Pokecheque]

Man, I don't remember the last time I saw the media as a whole absolutely savage the Avalanche like that. They had Dater on NHL radio and between that and Hockey Twitter they let 'em have it.

 

[Sea Eagles]

Man, I don't remember the last time I saw the media as a whole absolutely savage the Avalanche like that. They had Dater on NHL radio and between that and Hockey Twitter they let 'em have it.

What are you talking about?

 

[The Merchant]

What are you talking about?

The mainstream media have been having their way with the Avs and, more specifically, the FO the last few weeks.

 

[Pokecheque]

What are you talking about?

Dater put Sakic and the Avs on blast last night on NHL Radio, echoed fan frustration with his footdragging, especially with the Duchene situation. Nothing he said was off-base.

Even Pierre LeBrun, who I don't think is in the habit of critiquing players/organizations, took a big shot at Avs ownership.

In the wake of the Avs not trading Duchene and parting ways with Grigorenko, the knives are coming out.

 

[Ivan13]

Dater put Sakic and the Avs on blast last night on NHL Radio, echoed fan frustration with his footdragging, especially with the Duchene situation. Nothing he said was off-base.

Even Pierre LeBrun, who I don't think is in the habit of critiquing players/organizations, took a big shot at Avs ownership.

In the wake of the Avs not trading Duchene and parting ways with Grigorenko, the knives are coming out.

If someone is criticizing them for letting Grigorenko go they should be stripped of their job and degree.

 

[Pokecheque]

If someone is criticizing them for letting Grigorenko go they should be stripped of their job and degree.

They're only being critical as it pertains to the O'Reilly trade. NO ONE thinks they should have kept Grigorenko. But the focus has (rightfully) been on Sakic's dithering with a Duchene deal.

 

[McMetal]

They're only being critical as it pertains to the O'Reilly trade. NO ONE thinks they should have kept Grigorenko. But the focus has (rightfully) been on Sakic's dithering with a Duchene deal.

Grigorenko was probably the least important piece in the ROR deal, but it would make sense for people to act like losing him means the trade was a disaster.

 

[Pokecheque]

Grigorenko was probably the least important piece in the ROR deal, but it would make sense for people to act like losing him means the trade was a disaster.

Yeah, not necessarily mad that Grigo didn't work out and was rightfully given the heave-ho yesterday.

What I AM mad about is that Sakic went right out and got the exact same player in Joe Colborne. Both are big, talented, slow, and soft. You generally don't want one of those players, but surround him with players who might make up for those weaknesses and you might make it work. You most certainly don't go out and get two of those guys.

That's another thing: It's like Sakic went out and signed individual pieces without realizing how they fit together as a whole. I went on an extended Twitter rant about it so I won't repeat it here, but basically I felt that, individually, the depth pickups were fine. But all put together they did little more than exacerbate the team's already glaring weaknesses.

I also wonder how Parnass and the analytics team took last year's disaster and if that affected their relationship with the front office. I'm willing to bet that Wiercioch was a player they pushed for and got. And again, good pickup if not for the fact that there were too many guys like him already on the roster.

Now...what I wanna know is...how the hell could no one else see that coming!? Not McFarland, not Parnass, not Billington, why did no one scream bloody murder when they saw just how many awful skaters were on the roster?

 

[Foppa2118]

Grigorenko was probably the least important piece in the ROR deal, but it would make sense for people to act like losing him means the trade was a disaster.

And at the time of the trade, it was considered a bonus if they got anything out of him. They got two seasons out of him. He was basically a throw in, not a big part of the return value.