Confirmed with Link: Joël Bouchard Named Laval Rocket Head Coach (Confirmed: Daniel Jacob Named Assistant Coach)

[Laurentide]

Pateryn is more because of the dinosaurs we've had at head coach in the NHL. We saw under Therrien and now Julien, young players have solid stretches of hockey then have a bad game or two and don't see ice time while veteran plugs continue to play no matter how bad they are.

Guys like Pateryn and even Carr won't be more than bottom six/bottom pairing guys, but even in that role they can be productive and signed cheap. Instead of having to trade for guys like Shaw/Alzner for those roles, assets and money could've been used on actual impact and skilled guys.

It isn't just the coach. They probably get the message from Bergevin to "play the contracts". Whenever you try to make sense of the Habs' roster moves always follow the money. The reason why Bergevin yo-yo's younger, cheaper players between the big club, the farm team and the press box is because he can. The reason Therrien mercilessly punished rookies for mistakes while allowing lifetime failure award nominees to keep taking regular shifts was because he could and because some players have contracts that cost real money while others get paid peanuts by comparison. It's got sweet fanny adam to do with who "deserves" to be playing or not.

 

[417]

If you wanna use Morgan Ellis as a talking point..

Morgan Ellis was dying in the AHL under Sly.. then they moved him to the ECHL.. where he received better coaching than he got under Lefebvre. He came back to the AHL the next season and had a 42 pt season, beating his previous best of.. 10. He even earned a 3 game call up to the NHL following that.

It took another coach in another league to put Ellis back on track. Who knows what would have happened if he had received competent coaching in the first place.

So you think the 39 games he played under coach Clark Donatelli with the Wheeling Nailers, is what put him "back on track"?

You have anymore of these success stories for coach Donatelli? He coached Jared Tinordi this year...maybe he could put his career back on track.

Sorry don't mean to be sarcastic, I just have a lot of trouble with this theory that coaches can make/break players careers. As though nothing else is a factor.

You have three types of prospects:
Players who will make it no matter what.. the type of coaching they receive will certainly help determine how likely they are to round out as a player and reach their upside.

Players who won't make it no matter what.. they just don't have the skills/brain.

And players who require good development and coaching to reach their potential. Those are generally the types of prospects you are getting outside of the first two rounds of the draft, barring some luck and some steep development curves. This is where Lefebvre has proven to be awful.

I agree with your first 2 types of prospects...but I question the 3rd type.

Not saying you're wrong, but let's develop this further.

What player can you identify that would fit this threshold you're referring too?

Would you say Greg Pateryn, Sven Andrighetto and Charles Hudon fit this criteria?

is there anyone else who fits this type that was failed by Lefebvre?

 

[417]

Pateryn is more because of the dinosaurs we've had at head coach in the NHL. We saw under Therrien and now Julien, young players have solid stretches of hockey then have a bad game or two and don't see ice time while veteran plugs continue to play no matter how bad they are.

Guys like Pateryn and even Carr won't be more than bottom six/bottom pairing guys, but even in that role they can be productive and signed cheap. Instead of having to trade for guys like Shaw/Alzner for those roles, assets and money could've been used on actual impact and skilled guys.

So true...to me, this is one of the biggest issues this organization struggles with and has yet to identify.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Are you ****ing serious? For real?

I like DLR as well. Limited offensively but I like how he progressed with opportunity after Pleky was traded. Better than Danault in the end? Doubt it but won't surprise me. DLR is turning into a solid 3rd line player though IMO. Big body that can skate and works hard. If only he could shoot the puck

 

[Laurentide]

So true...to me, this is one of the biggest issues this organization struggles with and has yet to identify.

And the complete polar opposite of what Gallant preaches. If you make a mistake on his team, he throws you right back out there and gives you the opportunity to correct it. He knows how players respond to challenges because he was a player himself. But if you make a mistake on Therrien's team you will sit for the rest of that game and likely be a healthy scratch for the next half dozen barring an injury which forces him to play you. And if you dress at all you will be used sparingly. And that's the best-case scenario with Therrien. More often than not you wind up being forgotten in the minors and eventually traded for next to nothing in return.

The Habs would rather destroy an asset and make them worthless just to assert their authority than develop one by putting up with some mistakes and growing pains.

 

[417]

I like DLR as well. Limited offensively but I like how he progressed with opportunity after Pleky was traded. Better than Danault in the end? Doubt it but won't surprise me. DLR is turning into a solid 3rd line player though IMO. Big body that can skate and works hard. If only he could shoot the puck

He can shoot the puck...he just doesn't have natural offensive instincts.

He doesn't take risks offensively to make plays, he plays it safe all the time...coaching staff has to try to get him to take more chances at times.

I liked his progression this year and I thought he was very solid for Team Sweden at the WC's.

 

[417]

And the complete polar opposite of what Gallant preaches. If you make a mistake on his team, he throws you right back out there and gives you the opportunity to correct it. He knows how players respond to challenges because he was a player himself. But if you make a mistake on Therrien's team you will sit for the rest of that game and likely be a healthy scratch for the next half dozen barring an injury which forces him to play you. And if you dress at all you will be used sparingly. And that's the best-case scenario with Therrien. More often than not you wind up being forgotten in the minors and eventually traded for next to nothing in return.

The Habs would rather destroy an asset and make them worthless just to assert their authority than develop one by putting up with some mistakes and growing pains.

Thing that frustrates me is that this loose policy that you're alluding too, tends to be a shifting scale...some players can get away with anything on this team, while others are expected to be flawless regardless of role or icetime.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He can shoot the puck...he just doesn't have natural offensive instincts.

He doesn't take risks offensively to make plays, he plays it safe all the time...coaching staff has to try to get him to take more chances at times.

I liked his progression this year and I thought he was very solid for Team Sweden at the WC's.

I agree he can shoot I guess cause he surprised me a times but he doesn't score (pick corners) or have offensive creativity as a center. However, I agree... he has developed well and I'm looking forward to see what he can do with sustained opportunity on our team. He is clearly gaining more and more confidence as a pro and he is only touching his prime years now. I think we got a solid 3rd line player and I like the big body/skating/hard work combo. It's lacking on our team.

Watching the playoffs this year and look at the contenders.... they all have big dudes who can skate. Not all offensive but they are valuable cause they wear you down.

 

[Laurentide]

Thing that frustrates me is that this loose policy that you're alluding too, tends to be a shifting scale...some players can get away with anything on this team, while others are expected to be flawless regardless of role or icetime.

You are referring, of course, to a phenomenon that hockey scientists call the "Desharnais-Galchenyuk Paradox".

 

[Habsddicted]

I like DLR as well. Limited offensively but I like how he progressed with opportunity after Pleky was traded. Better than Danault in the end? Doubt it but won't surprise me. DLR is turning into a solid 3rd line player though IMO. Big body that can skate and works hard. If only he could shoot the puck

Kostopoulos was a big body that could skate and worked hard. His offensive side was equal or better then De La Rose.

I seriously doubt that he will ever be a third liner. The only time he "produced" was when he played with first and second line players.

At least Kostopoulos shot once in a while, even tough it generally was 5 feet away from the net.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Kostopoulos was a big body that could skate and worked hard. His offensive side was equal or better then De La Rose.

I seriously doubt that he will ever be a third liner. The only time he "produced" was when he played with first and second line players.

At least Kostopoulos shot once in a while, even tough it generally was 5 feet away from the net.

Pessimistic evaluation on a player that has shown glimpse of potential with opportunity after Pleky was traded. Sweden valued what DLR brought to the table and added him to their World championship winning team. Was he a game changer talent for them? NO. He fulfilled a role that they valued.

Your pessimistic approach may turn out to be true and I understand what you are saying. However, DLR is showing potential and just touching his prime years. It's anybodies guess at weather he stalls or gets better and matures into a solid 3rd line NHL player

 

[Runner77]

Pateryn is more because of the dinosaurs we've had at head coach in the NHL. We saw under Therrien and now Julien, young players have solid stretches of hockey then have a bad game or two and don't see ice time while veteran plugs continue to play no matter how bad they are.

Guys like Pateryn and even Carr won't be more than bottom six/bottom pairing guys, but even in that role they can be productive and signed cheap. Instead of having to trade for guys like Shaw/Alzner for those roles, assets and money could've been used on actual impact and skilled guys.

There is no doubt that there is truth in what you're advancing. Pateryn was mishandled on several levels. One of them is on the coaching staff, their failure to properly deploy him and their failure to properly assess the type of player he is.

My argument was on a totally other level. If you're entrusted with player procurement, seems to me that you need to know not only what players on other teams are worth and capable of but you also need to know those rostered on team you work for, just as well.

That MB was advised to trade Pateryn and a pick to boot, for a lesser asset in Benn and that other similar or worse asset decisions were made since and how no one from pro scouting has been fired yet, is the real headscratcher.

 

[Runner77]

What skills have you developed in your life? Were you born with those skills or did you have to develop them over time?

A nature vs. nurture argument on a hockey board. Only on the Habs forum.

 

[angry pirate]

Once those two additional years happened, it becomes a logical fallacy to dismiss a player as a 4th rounder. A player's draft rank is a meaningful diagnostic on the day after the draft. Once you have additional years of development or under-development happen, then that has to be taken into account in your probability. Don't even bother debating this as it's basic science.

In a redraft it’s obvious that Ellis would have been taken much higher come 2012 because you’re right in that he continued to develop his game through Junior. It’s an important distinction in trade values at the time but less important 5 years later when we know what the end result is. In your case, equating him to a higher pick, has a major flaw. You’re assuming that the issues that made Ellis a 4th rounder in the first place aren’t the same issues that kept him from the NHL.

I’m willing to admit that Sly could be responsible. I’m willing to admit that I don’t know. But I’m also willing to aknowledge that the same issues that pushed Ellis down to the 4th round were the same issues that plagued his pro career.

You are not the first member of the hindsight-loving / Bergevin-defense brigade to casually dismiss Ellis as a 4th rounder.basic science.

As someone who loves to causally throw out the word fallacy, you’re own biases are quite evident in this statement.

 

[angry pirate]

Thing that frustrates me is that this loose policy that you're alluding too, tends to be a shifting scale...some players can get away with anything on this team, while others are expected to be flawless regardless of role or icetime.

I think a lot of coaches get stuck in a their ways so to speak. Can’t adjust their style of coaching. Techniques used to motivate yesterday aren’t neccessarly going to be effective today.

This is one of the reasons I like the Bouchard hiring. He has recent and relevant experience with young players. In theory, he’s going to know what does and doesn’t work to get the most out of them.

 

[Miller Time]

Not crazy about AHL staff being fully decided on without someone (outside of bargainbin) leading the ship...

Really should have hired an assistant GM or hockey ops person whose main responsibility is being GM of Laval.

 

[Runner77]

Not crazy about AHL staff being fully decided on without someone (outside of bargainbin) leading the ship...

Really should have hired an assistant GM or hockey ops person whose main responsibility is being GM of Laval.

Would have been preferable but there are a lot of NHL teams that don't have an AHL GM.

If your AHL GM is going to be Larry Chuckles Carrière, an empty chair is a better choice.

 

[montreal]

Some good discussion points on Lefebvre. The good news is that no matter what side you are on or what your opinion is of who is at fault or not, it now doesn't matter because we don't have to see his terrible decisions anymore.

 

[DAChampion]

I don't understand why so many dislike De La Rose.

Yes, he hasn't produced much offense, but he's never had the opportunity to do so. He was always playing ahead of his age, or playing with Lefebvre.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Some good discussion points on Lefebvre. The good news is that no matter what side you are on or what your opinion is of who is at fault or not, it now doesn't matter because we don't have to see his terrible decisions anymore.

I am so much more comfortable knowing the prospects will no longer go from Lefebvre to Therrien and will go from Bouchard to Ducharme/Julien.

 

[Habsddicted]

Pessimistic evaluation on a player that has shown glimpse of potential with opportunity after Pleky was traded. Sweden valued what DLR brought to the table and added him to their World championship winning team. Was he a game changer talent for them? NO. He fulfilled a role that they valued.

Your pessimistic approach may turn out to be true and I understand what you are saying. However, DLR is showing potential and just touching his prime years. It's anybodies guess at weather he stalls or gets better and matures into a solid 3rd line NHL player

It's not being pessimist, it's being realist. The guy is a big body but he doesn't use it. That will not change tomorrow. He also barely ever shoots and is more often looking for the safe play then amything else.

I can only be optimistic if he gives me the chance to be, which he hasn't. I've never seen him beat players one on one, he doesn't really hit, his skating is average and most of his goals are garbage goals.

I can see him panning out to be a nice 4rth line center but I doubt he ever reaches the 10 goal mark in a season or the 25 point mark

 

[montreal]

It's not being pessimist, it's being realist. The guy is a big body but he doesn't use it. That will not change tomorrow. He also barely ever shoots and is more often looking for the safe play then amything else.

I can only be optimistic if he gives me the chance to be, which he hasn't. I've never seen him beat players one on one, he doesn't really hit, his skating is average and most of his goals are garbage goals.

I can see him panning out to be a nice 4rth line center but I doubt he ever reaches the 10 goal mark in a season or the 25 point mark

but how much of that is due to poor development? I can't tell how pissed off I would get as just as DLR would start putting together a string of offensive games he would get called up, play a little, sit a little and then get sent back. To me since hockey is so much mental, so much about confidence, and the Habs did a great job of trying to ruin it by yo-yoing him so much.

Now in no way am I saying he would be a 10+ goal, 25+ pt player cause I just don't know what might of happened if say he was in the OHL or SHL at 19 instead of with Lefebvre and MT. I know he can show off a decent shot but does look to pass more then shoot. He was at least showing a decent physical game when first called to the NHL but since then it's died out for the most part. He's got he size, skating, speed, strength, frame to have a solid physical game.

But at this point I hope he ends up a good 4th liner for us on a good team or a decent 3rd liner on a bad team.

 

[tazsub3]

It's not being pessimist, it's being realist. The guy is a big body but he doesn't use it. That will not change tomorrow. He also barely ever shoots and is more often looking for the safe play then amything else.

I can only be optimistic if he gives me the chance to be, which he hasn't. I've never seen him beat players one on one, he doesn't really hit, his skating is average and most of his goals are garbage goals.

I can see him panning out to be a nice 4rth line center but I doubt he ever reaches the 10 goal mark in a season or the 25 point mark

I am not saying he will become like him as i honestly dont think he will, but William Karlsson was looked on the same way when he left anahein towards columbus, and even during part of his time with columbus. DLR prorated stats of this year is comparable to Williams first full year in Columbus.

Again i am not saying he will become karlsson and socre 40+ goals, but what i am saying, is people label some prospects too early and forget that many continue to develop. Now with our habs, we had reverse development, so we almost never saw such a case, but now with top developers joining on board, we can hope for such phenomenon to happen

 

[Habs Halifax]

It's not being pessimist, it's being realist. The guy is a big body but he doesn't use it. That will not change tomorrow. He also barely ever shoots and is more often looking for the safe play then amything else.

I can only be optimistic if he gives me the chance to be, which he hasn't. I've never seen him beat players one on one, he doesn't really hit, his skating is average and most of his goals are garbage goals.

I can see him panning out to be a nice 4rth line center but I doubt he ever reaches the 10 goal mark in a season or the 25 point mark

I agree with Ray..

A fresh scouting report on the Canadiens' Jacob de la Rose

 

[JianYang]

He can shoot the puck...he just doesn't have natural offensive instincts.

He doesn't take risks offensively to make plays, he plays it safe all the time...coaching staff has to try to get him to take more chances at times.

I liked his progression this year and I thought he was very solid for Team Sweden at the WC's.

DLR skates well, and has a good frame. He's good along the wall, and not easy to knock off the puck.

It's a good foundation to build on. Maybe he can be a less talented version of eller.... Another big body who is good at protecting the puck.