Jim Robson Division Second Round #1 Burnaby Mountaineers vs. #4 Edmonton Oilers

[Frightened Inmate #2]

The Burnaby Mountaineers

coach: Scotty Bowman
Captain: Wayne Gretzky
Alternate Captains: Guy Carbonneau, Al MacInnis

Valeri Kamensky - Wayne Gretzky - Jari Kurri
Brendan Shanahan - Jeremy Roenick - Steve Larmer
Brian Propp - Pierre Turgeon - Jere Lehtinen
Adam Graves - Guy Carbonneau - Joel Otto
Tiger Williams


Valeri Vasiliev - Al MacInnis
Mike Ramsey - Jan Suchy
Victor Kuzkin - Vitaly Davydov
Nikolai Sologubov

Mike Vernon
John Vanbiesbrouck
George Hainsworth

The Edmonton Oilers

Head Coach: Bob Johnson
Captain: Ted Kennedy
Alternate Captains: Darryl Sitler, Lanny McDonald, Pierre Pilote

Ilya Kovalchuk - Ted Kennedy - Glenn Anderson
Brian Sutter - Darryl Sittler - Lanny McDonald
Bob Gainey - Brent Sutter - Claude Provost
Vic Hadfield - Dave Poulin - Didier Pitre
Don McKenny

Pierre Pilote - Butch Bouchard
Leo Boivin - Babe Pratt
Babe Siebert - Ted Green
Jimmy Roberts

Terry Sawchuk
Frank Brimsek
Charlie Hodge

Click to read more...

 

[Transplanted Caper]

This is a great 1 vrs 4 matchup. Both teams look very solid. I'll be doing some research on this one!

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

I understand that Burnaby has the best offensive player on the team but after that I don't know why but they don't really scare me as a team and I think a lot of that has to do with having Vernon between the pipes. I might be a bit young but I remember the early 90s when the Flames in general and in large part Vernon were unable to win a playoff series to save their lives. Whether it was the lowly LA Kings (featuring Gretzky oddly enough), the San Jose Sharks or being unable to put the Canucks away when they were up 3-1 in the series. Was the goaltender on one of the best teams to not even make the playoffs in 1991-92. I know all about'86 '89 and '98 but those don't make me forget about his long streak as a playoff choke from 1990-1996. Huge weakness right there

 

[Know Your Enemy]

Its a bit early for this don't you think? You're going to take away alot of attention from the other round 1 matchups.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

On one hand I agree but on the other hand I am thinking it would be a good idea to wrap up the other ones on Friday/Saturday and then have these threads kicking into high gear at the same time. It is just with Christmas coming and everyone being busy as all hell we are going to need to pick up the pace significantly

Also I am only starting one a day...

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Its a bit early for this don't you think? You're going to take away alot of attention from the other round 1 matchups.

I'm pretty sure the plan is for all 8 1st round matches to run concurrently. I could be wrong though.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

I'm pretty sure the plan is for all 8 1st round matches to run concurrently. I could be wrong though.

I have the four starting now but then I was going to stagger the other ones so that it doesn't become an overload in quick order.

I was wondering though how many votes did you get and how many non-gms were able to vote?

 

[Murphy]

In the last minor league draft I drafted Steve Kasper, who made a career out of shutting down Gretzky. Can I call him up??

Sawchuk vs Vernon......hmmmmmmm

Ted Green vs a bunch of Russians.........hmmmmmmmmm

Bob meet Wayne.......

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Bowman and Gretzky on the same team is enough to win the entire thing, just a scary combonation. But, I have to say, Burnaby's 2nd and 3rd centers don't scare me at all. Solid on the wings though. A tight match-up. The deciding factor may be how well an undersized Suchy can play his game, if he's able to do his thing, he'd fill the role Coffey did in Edmonton quite nicely and is probably a better goal scorer than Coffey, albiet, inferior skater and playmaker.

Should be an excellent match-up.

I was wondering though how many votes did you get and how many non-gms were able to vote?

16 votes, no formal votes from non-GMs.

 

[Murphy]

I do wonder how Gretzky would to respond to Bowman and his mind tricks. I don't think he enjoyed his short time with Keenan in St Louis and thats about as close a comparable I can make.

Sather rarely took Gretzky to task although it did happen, I don't know maybe once!

I don't see Gretzky responding to Bowman well.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

Bowman and Gretzky on the same team is enough to win the entire thing, just a scary combonation. But, I have to say, Burnaby's 2nd and 3rd centers don't scare me at all. Solid on the wings though. A tight match-up. The deciding factor may be how well an undersized Suchy can play his game, if he's able to do his thing, he'd fill the role Coffey did in Edmonton quite nicely and is probably a better goal scorer than Coffey, albiet, inferior skater and playmaker.

Huh? Are we talking about the same Coffey that scored 48 goals?

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Huh? Are we talking about the same Coffey that scored 48 goals?

Should also highlight the probably. But yes, the "Czech Bobby Orr" is one of the top goal scoring d-men ever.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

And Larionov was the Russian Wayne Gretzky... To say that Suchy would be a better goalscorer than Coffey is odd to say the least and I would say that Coffey who holds the record for goals in a single season - in the best league in the world - easily trumps Suchy. If you want to say from a defensive perspective that Suchy was better, there are no arguements but from a goalscoring perspective to say that someone was said to be the Czechoslovakian Bobby Orr and is thus a better goalscorer is using faulty logic at best. I remember people saying that Orr was similar in skating to Bowmeester.... would he be better than Coffey as well?

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

And Larionov was the Russian Wayne Gretzky... To say that Suchy would be a better goalscorer than Coffey is odd to say the least and I would say that Coffey who holds the record for goals in a single season - in the best league in the world - easily trumps Suchy. If you want to say from a defensive perspective that Suchy was better, there are no arguements but from a goalscoring perspective to say that someone was said to be the Czechoslovakian Bobby Orr and is thus a better goalscorer is using faulty logic at best. I remember people saying that Orr was similar in skating to Bowmeester.... would he be better than Coffey as well?

Unfortunatly, I can't find league stats at the moment, but in 58 World Championship games he had 20 goals. Most impress is the 1970 WC where he had 8 goals and 7 assists in 10 games. Maybe he's not Coffey good, but having Holik, Novy and Nedomansky set you up isn't the same as having Messier, Gretzky and Kurri set you up either. I may be over stating things here, but Suchy is one of the best goal scoring defence men ever and if his size doesn't hold him back, he'll be lethal pinching in from the point.

Then again, the eurohockey.com site has him listed as playing in the extraliga at 9 years old, so, it might not be entirely accurate...

Then again, wikipedia lists him as playing in the extraliga at 8 years old...

Really hard to get a good read on him, but, from what I can gather, from 68-70 his offensive game was unreal. And that while he was playing in a mens league at 8, it probably wasn't extraliga. His final career totals are 164 goals, 221 assists, 385 points in 561 games. Although this includes the decline in play after a car accident. And apparantly he was strong defensively too.

Wish I read Czech to get more info on him, but what I can get shows him as an unreal talent at his peak.

 

[Murphy]

To start with the Oilers will be playing a defense first style who will be diverting all play to the outside. The wingers will be hit along the boards at every opportunity as will anyone coming to the net. There will be no room to operate in front of the net and scoring chances will be from the sides only. The Oilers are comfortable knowing the have a clear advantage in net and trading chance for chance would probably work in their favour but it's still going to be a defense first concept.

It'll be a dump and chase game for the Oilers, particularily into the Mountaineers right side. We'll see how 160 Lbs of Suchy and McInnis stand up to the relentless forecheck of the Oilers LW's of Brian Sutter, Gainey, Hadfield and of course Teeder.

Line matchups are going to be key. Bowman is the master but Johnson is no slouch either. Obviously the Gainey, Provost duo will be keying in on Gretzky's line in an attempt to take away Gretzkys passing lanes. Brent Sutter will shadowing Gretzky ala Kasper and getting in his face whenever he can. Gretzky and Kurri have never seen the likes of Gainey and Provost and if anyone can shut them down that line this one can.

The Kennedy line will probably face the Carbonneau line, not sure if the Otto Graves combo can contain Kovalchuk and Anderson. I'd be looking for the slower overated Otto to be exposed by Kovalchuk.

The Sittler line vs the Roenick line should be a good one. Shanahan up against Lanny and Larmer up against Brian Sutter. There's enough grit and snipers among these guys that some scoring opportunities should be available. The Sawchuk over Vernon advatage will come into play these guys. Sittler is also a clear advantage over Roenick.

The Poulin vs Turgeon line indicates the depth on these two teams are about the same. Pound Turgeon and he has a tendency to disappear. The Oilers are happy not to have any wusses like that on their team...

On defense I don't even think its close. Pilote is clearly the best defenseman in the series, Bouchard is argueably the second best. Ramsey and Vasilev are the only two I can see that can handle a physical series and yes.....this is going to be a physical series.

Goaltending, the most important position in the playoffs. With Gretzkys line stifled, chances should be even. I'd take Charrlie Hodge over Vernon and still be comfortable trading chances.

The Mountaineers are going down.

Looking forward to the rebuttal VanIslander....

 

[VanIslander]

I don't have time now but rest assured that Bowman will use home ice advantage. When there's defensive face-offs at key moments, and when the Mountaineers have the lead - and this team will score - then Bowman will shorten the bench at times to three lines:

Adam Graves - Wayne Gretzky - Jari Kurri
Brendan Shanahan - Jeremy Roenick - Steve Larmer
Brian Propp - Guy Carbonneau - Jere Lehtinen

These big Mountaineers (statistically the biggest of the 20 teams if you call the stats that were crunched) will be a challenge for the SMALL defensmen on the Oilers. Pilote thinks offense-first and is 5'9, not the best combination to take on big Shanahan or deadly Larmer, nor Kurri or Propp. Second pairing Oiler d-man Boivin is 5'7, small even for his time, and if he tries to throw a lot of body checks like he enjoys doing he'll find himself burned by deadly passes. Mountaineer wingers have the speed, size and skill to cause defensemen fits and the Oilers blueline will be crossed on quick transitions. The third Oiler pairing has Siebert, a skilled forward who converted to defense when he got too slow and he thrived with his offensive instincts. His linemate Green is "violent" and is so nasty in rep that Tiger Williams will take him on a couple of times in the series. And the Mountaineers was assembled to be excellent in special teams, powerplays and penalty kill. In fact, these will be keys to victory. I will cover special teams tomorrow.

The four players not on the shortened bench of three lines will still see action, strategically as Bowman likes it. With Otto as backup for face-offs (though all centres on the team are excellent at it), Tiger Williams to handle shifts on Gretz's line if a Semenko type enforcer is needed, as at times it may against this opponent, and Kamensky for the top line on offensive face-offs when seeking a tying goal.

There will plenty of Mountaineer rushes up ice, some of the most dangerous on transition due to turnovers generated, and the Oilers defense wil have trouble dealing with such moves.

That's all I have time for now. G'day.

 

[God Bless Canada]

When we decided to go with playoffs, this is the type of matchup I dreamed of. Buffalo/Hamilton was THE series of the preliminary round. This will be THE matchup of the second round. There are some other strong matchups (Montreal/Boston comes to mind) but I think this is the one to sit down and watch and enjoy great playoff-style hockey. I've been looking forward to this one since before the start of the first round.

If Murphy2 is going to win, he's going to need great goaltending. I think even VanI would admit there's an edge here. Sawchuk is No. 1 on some lists, and in the top five on every knowledgeable fans' list. Hainsworth is top 10 on some lists. I'm a huge Mike Vernon fan, but I'll definitely take eight-time all-star Brimsek. (Only two all-star selections came when the best were overseas). You hope that the No. 3's won't be a factor.

Defence is really tough to call, not only from the blue-line perspective, but from the overall team perspective. Both teams have a lot of strong defensive forwards. Looking at the blue lines, I like Edmonton's No. 1 a little more than Burnaby's (I think Pilote is the most underrated all-time great in the history of the game). Bouchard gives Pilote a strong defensive conscience, enabling Pilote to concentrate of his offensive duties. The other two pairings are good offence-defence tandems, too. Burnaby will be hard-pressed to get many odd-man rushes, as Edmonton has some of the finest two-way forwards in the draft. Gainey and Provost would be my ideal third line LW and RW, respectively.

I like VanI's top four a lot. MacInnis and Suchy are big bombers from the point. MacInnis doesn't need a defensive conscience, but he has a reliable two-way force in Vasiliev. Mike Ramsey will certainly give Suchy the freedom to roam. Don't really know much about the other two defencemen, but I do like Sogulobov, but I couldn't pass up the chance to take the physical swashbuckler Barilko. (Hey, four Cups in five years). There's a strong two-way presence on the bottom three lines, although for some reason, I don't think Turgeon fits in well with Propp and Lehtinen at all. Hmmm, super soft one-dimensional underachiever centre, teamed with one of the best defensive RWs of all-time, and the top scoring LW in playoff history who was a strong presence in the defensive zone and in the corners.

Murphy2, I will definitely take you to task with your comment that Otto is overrated. If anything, he's underrated. Scouts across the world are still looking for the next Joel Otto: a big, strong centre who dominates physically AND defensively, is a force in the faceoff circle, and can get you 50 points per season. We've seen reasonable facsimilies (Primeau, Holik at various points in their careers) but nobody who has come into the league and come close to what Otto could do. Prototypes are never overrated.

VanI gets a definite nod on offence. He has that proven game-breaker element that Murphy2 doesn't have. We know what Gretzky and Kurri can do offensively. Kamensky is potent. They lack that true game breaker (a guy who can go for two goals and two assists when Gretzky and Kurri are held off the scoresheet) but they have a lot of solid, reliable scorers who should be good for around a point-per-game, guys like Shanahan, Roenick, Larmer, Propp. If his head's on straight, Turgeon be the No. 3 scorer on the team. And they have MacInnis, Vasiliev and Suchy on the point.

The closest things to a proven game-breaker in Edmonton are Sittler and Pitre. That's bad news. But what they do have is a lot of players who live for this time of year, especially Kennedy and Anderson. He reunited Sittler and MacDonald, and call me crazy, but I think Brian Sutter (he of multiple 40-goal/250-PIM seasons) might fit better on that line than Tiger Williams.

The big matchup is Gainey-Sutter-Provost vs. Kamensky-Gretzky-Kurri. Expect to see Gainey's line, and likely Bouchard, to be matched up against Gretzky's line in the three games in Burnaby. This is the best bet in the draft to contain Gretzky's line. The one caveat for Burnaby is this: the Mountaineers will want to get Gretzky away from that match-up, but the other three lines are tough to play against as well. There isn't a defensively weak line in the line-up.

Burnaby has a definite edge in coaching. Then again, Burnaby will have a definite coaching edge against every team remaining, except for Moscow, and that wouldn't happen until the final.

This is going to be an awesome series. It'll go the distance.

 

[BM67]

Murphy2, I will definitely take you to task with your comment that Otto is overrated. If anything, he's underrated. Scouts across the world are still looking for the next Joel Otto: a big, strong centre who dominates physically AND defensively, is a force in the faceoff circle, and can get you 50 points per season. We've seen reasonable facsimilies (Primeau, Holik at various points in their careers) but nobody who has come into the league and come close to what Otto could do. Prototypes are never overrated.

I'll take you to task for overrating Otto's offense. He had five 50+ point seasons playing during one of the highest scoring periods in NHL history. He never reached 60, and if you throw out his PP goals, he falls to 50 points or below in all those years. He was never in the top 5 scorers on his team in even 1 year of his career. He likely wouldn't get a sniff of 50 points in this league or any of the last 10 years of the NHL.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I'll take you to task for overrating Otto's offense. He had five 50+ point seasons playing during one of the highest scoring periods in NHL history. He never reached 60, and if you throw out his PP goals, he falls to 50 points or below in all those years. He was never in the top 5 scorers on his team in even 1 year of his career. He likely wouldn't get a sniff of 50 points in this league or any of the last 10 years of the NHL.

Some fair observations, but at the same time, after his first three seasons, he was never in a situation where he was going to be a go-to guy on offence. From 1988 to 1992, he was stuck behind Gilmour and Nieuwendyk. Then he was stuck behind Nieuwendyk and Reichel. And say what you will about Robert Reichel, nobody will ever deny the guy's offensive potential.

I think if you put Otto in a situation where he could be an offensive player with quality wingers, I think he scores 60 points consistently, maybe hits 70, during those years in Calgary. His best offensive season was as a rookie in 85-86, when he was playing a more important role in the offence. And in 87-88, he scored at a 65-point pace. I don't think it's a coincidence that his pace fell off when Gilmour arrived.

I'm not bothered that he wasn't a top five scorer on the Flames from 1985 to 1993, simply because a) that was a dynamic Calgary team, loaded with scorers; and b) after he first three seasons, he wasn't put in a position to score goals. You can counter that guys like Dan Quinn and Carey Wilson finished in the top five, but skill was never a problem for those two players. (Although Otto was fourth in Calgary's post-season scoring in 1989, and I'm usually more impressed by a guy who finishes fourth in playoff scoring on a Cup champ, than by a guy who finishes fifth in scoring on a team that gets eliminated in the first round).

He wasn't going to be the offensive player that some thought he would be coming out of college, where he had a couple big seasons. Yeah, he played Div. II, but he was good enough to get nominated for the Hobey Baker. A lot of people had very high hopes for him as a point producer. He just didn't have that creative flair with the puck to put up 80 to 90 points. But he thought the game well, he had a really good shot and he had quick hands. Put him in the right situation in today's NHL, he'd get at least 50-55 points per season in a second line role.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Just thought I'd mention, according to his hall of fame bio, Babe Siebert won the Hart as a defenceman.

 

[VanIslander]

Just thought I'd mention, according to his hall of fame bio, Babe Siebert won the Hart as a defenceman.

He was a skilled forward who converted to defense when he got too slow and he thrived with his offensive instincts, winning the Hart soon after moving to the blueline as an offensive-skilled d-man. Not the best player to stop the 5000+ NHL goals combined experienced scorers on the Mountaineers. He was NO Pronger.

 

[Murphy]

Just thought I'd mention, according to his hall of fame bio, Babe Siebert won the Hart as a defenceman.

Just thought I'd mention that Babe Pratt won a Hart as a defensman also, thats two Hart Trophy winners.......

 

[Murphy]

Adam Graves - Wayne Gretzky - Jari Kurri
Brendan Shanahan - Jeremy Roenick - Steve Larmer
Brian Propp - Guy Carbonneau - Jere Lehtinen

The four players not on the shortened bench of three lines will still see action, strategically as Bowman likes it. With Otto as backup for face-offs (though all centres on the team are excellent at it), Tiger Williams to handle shifts on Gretz's line if a Semenko type enforcer is needed, as at times it may against this opponent, and Kamensky for the top line on offensive face-offs when seeking a tying goal.

I'd shorten that bench if I was you also VanIslander..........

I'd imagine the Carbonneau line would mostly matchup with Teeder line. No clear advantage for either there. Strong defensive line vs my 1st line. It'll be a saw-off

The Roenick line match's up with the Sittler line. This is probably when the best hockey will be played. Both lines matchup well and bring everything. I think the Moutaineers have better wingers here but Sittler is much better than Roenick. They'll trade scoring chances and this is where the goaltending advantage will come into play.

The Sutter line vs the Gretzky line will be the key matchup of the series and Johnson will be looking to get them out there at every opportunity. I think a Semenko type enforcer will eventually be needed VanIslander and that should play to the Oilers advantage. With Sutter shadowing and doing what he does best he'll get under Gretzky's skin and frustrate him. You can't hit him but you can get the odd shot in. I'd like to think his linemates being covered closely will be a cause for frustration also. Gretz and Kurri have never seen the likes of Gainey and Provost before and this team is probably the best of them all in containing them.

One thing about having Tiger in the lineup is he'll take alot of penalties and mostly bad ones. He was never shy about doing that in his quest for payback. If he does get out of line and not that Brent Sutter can't take care of himself but Ted Green will be there. Ted Green vs Tiger Williams....wow, that would be something to see.

So with Williams in the penalty box the subject of special teams comes up. I'd imagine what would be most effective and fortunately I have the horses for the blueline to control, set up and bomb shots from the points. Tips and rebounds and scoring ugly will be the Oilers powerplay forte.

1st unit: Vic Hadfield - Teeder Kennedy - Glenn Anderson

Pierre Pilote - Babe Pratt

2nd unit: Brian Sutter - Darryl Sittler - Lanny McDonald

Babe Siebert - Ilya Kovalchuk

Not the prettiest bunch up front but better than most for scoring the ugly type goals. The key will be controlling the play from the blueline where the Oilers strength is.

Penalty killing is a major strength here.

1st unit: Bob Gainey - Claude Provost

Leo Boivin - Butch Bouchard

Some major crease clearing power there.

2nd unit: Brent Sutter - Brian Sutter

Pierre Pilot - Ted Green

Two Sutters together, I like that, Dave Poulin will see some time killing penalties as well, probably when Pilote needs a rest. Of course the best penalty killer of them all will be Terry Sawchuk, I'd like to get Brimsek in for a game as well. If the series goes 7 which it probably will I'd envision Brimsek getting in for game 4 to give Sawchuk a rest.

 

[Wisent]

I absolutelz love the defense of Burnaby. They are rock solid and mobile. Great pairings with a shut down and an offensive guy. Suchy was a great pick. The 3rd pair of Davydov and Kuzkin played quite a bit together and that is actually the reason I would give Kuzkin the nod over Solugobov on that pair. Just all all a very solid defense. So comparing the defense I have to give the advantage to Burnaby especially in the depth department.

The first line of Burnaby is outstanding as well, complementing Kurri and Gretzky with Kamensky should provide good scoring. Probably more than the first line of Edmonton (I still see Kovalchuk as a weak part as the first line LW). The key for Edmonton to win this series should be the 2nd and 3rd line. If they are able to shut down the first line especially (the 2nd of Burnaby is not that scary IMO) they should be able to win a few. I think that these two lines have the ability to play the gritty and hard game that just might be able to break the first line.
By offensive standards I have to give the nod to Burnaby as well but when considering two way play and defense, I think that Edmonton has a clear edge. That 3rd line will be a ***** to play against and the 2nd is not too shabby either.

Edmonton has the clear edge in goaltending. Sawchuk and Brimsek are heads and shoulders over Vernon and the Beezer.

This should be a very close series.

 

[VanIslander]

The 3rd pair of Davydov and Kuzkin played quite a bit together and that is actually the reason I would give Kuzkin the nod over Solugobov on that pair. Just all all a very solid defense.

Glad you noticed.

Davydov and Kuzkin have chemistry together as "one of the best [pairings] in Soviet hockey history". Davydov is the star of the pairing. He chose not to go to the 1972 Summit Series, despite being the nation's #1 defenseman at the time, as protest over a decision to change their coach, a move he made with fellow Soviet great, forward Anatoli Firsov. Now, given how dam competitive the Soviets were in that Series against the likes of Clarke, Esposito, Mahavolich, Perreault, Dionne, Mikita, you'd think a defenseman considered to be on the top pairing of their national team at the time must have been fantastic! We all know Vasiliev was great, in fact, his physicality caused the Canadian greats real trouble in the Summit Series. He had the opportunity to shine in front of a Canadian audience. Davydov didn't, unfortunately. He did win nine World Championships and three Olympic golds as a 1960s dominant player, and if the Summit Series of '72 taught Canadians anything, it's that Soviet hockey of that time was just as competitive as NHL hockey (in fact, the Soviets gave up less goals than the Canadians did in that Series, a fact they've used to claim they won it). Nikolai Sologubov is the 7th d-man who could see minutes int he series of course, as Bowman likes to dress seven blueliners. He was a superstar of an earlier era, named best defenseman of the World Championships in 1956, 1957, and 1960, was team captain and much respected in the USSR, even having a trophy named after him. Was the Soviets of the 50s as competitive as the Soviets of the 60s and '72? I think the farther you go back from the Summit Series the more question marks one has. Hence the reason why he's in the 7th spot. And in bringing them together, Bowman is the perfect coach for these guys, having done very well coaching Russians in the NHL.

The Mountaineers have been built as the type of team that doesn't need their goaltender to stand on his head. The defense and wingers will act in unison to limit opportunities (and the Oilers are not the sort of offensive threat to require a fabulous starter to stop them! Mountaineer goalies would have trouble against Lemieux, Jagr, Bossy, but won't have as much trouble - and will have plenty of help - against Sittler, Kovalchuk, Anderson). Burnaby's opponent, Sawchuk, however, will have to face MacInnis' slapshot, the wizardry of Gretzky, one-timers from Kurri and Shanahan in his face.