Jim Robson Division Final: #3 Calgary Cowboys vs #4 Edmonton Oilers

[God Bless Canada]

When he could stay healthy, Dave Poulin was definitely a perennial top 5 defensive forward, up there with guys like Carbo, Tik and Otto. Staying healthy was the problem - he never played more than 70 games from 1987-88 through 1991-92. He might have started as a figure skater when he was a kid, but you'd be surprised how many hockey players took figure skating at some point. He was very tough to play against. Jiri Holik was a fine player, but in terms of defensive presence (which is what I look for from a fourth liner) I want Poulin.

Ron Hextall once took ballet to improve his flexibility. I don't think anybody ever referred to Hextall as a ballet dancer.

It's one thing for the KLM Line to be able to put up points against Gainey in the Canada Cup. It's another thing to do it against Gainey AND Provost in a best-of-seven. Anything can happen in a best-of-one. The 1981 Canada Cup is proof of that. But in a seven-game series? That's much more impressive. Gainey and Provost are likely the two best for their role in this draft. Murphy2 has both of them. Gainey-Provost-Sutter won't outscore the KLM. But if the KLM line can average a goal a game, that would be impressive. The other element facing the KLM line is they will be in tough against any Edmonton line. Makarov wilted facing a lot less than Brian Sutter in the Stanley Cup playoffs.

In a best-of-seven division final, I'll take Fleury over Kovalchuk in a heartbeat. Fleury led the playoffs in scoring in the first round three straight years. He was not a reason that Calgary lost in the first round all those times. A Messier-Fleury tandem will be deadly in this series, and they will form Calgary's best line. Kovalchuk hasn't been in the playoffs before, but remember this: he was pointless in Atlanta's final three games last year, when they so desperately needed offence. Of course, Anderson-Tkachuk matchup would be almost as favourable for Edmonton as the Fleury-Kovalchuk matchup is for Calgary. I would take Messier over Kennedy, but it definitely wouldn't be an easy decision.

Brian Sutter isn't on the Sittler line because he was a dominant goal scorer. He's on that line to hit people, to create room for Sittler and MacDonald and to finish the chances that they create. I'm not a big stats guy, but Brian Sutter did have three straight years with at least 35 goals and 225 PIMs, and he had three more 30-goal seasons. He's a great combination of grit, goals and guile. Tiger Williams was a great bookend for the Sittler-MacDonald duo in Toronto. Sutter will be even better.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

The only real test that the KLM line faced?

Wasn't the KLM line fromed in roughy 1980.

I'm not saying they never faced checkers before, I am saying they never faced the likes of this shut down line before. If they're good enough to keep Gretzky and Kurri in check then they are certainly capable of shutting down Krutov and Makarov. I get the idea that they might not adapt well from what Krutov did with the Nucks. Makarov didn't shine in the playoffs either. Of course Larionov was the opposite. He did adapt well and performed great in the playoffs. To bad he's only 1/3rd of the line.

Well I guess it is to bad that if you put Makarov into a comfortable situation - such as he would be on the KLM line that he would perform, and perform well. Do I think that the checking line of the Oilers would cause problems, I sure do. But at the same time I strongly believe that you are not giving the most dominant line in international hockey enough credit. There is no doubt that they were the focus of checkers in prior tournaments (including Gainey) so I fail to see why all of a sudden there would be such a large reversal of fortunes where the first second they would be against Gainey they would be completely useless. I know everyone loves Gainey but I can't help but think that some are vastly overrating his abilities in the defensive end, great yes. Superhuman. No. Provost is an interesting question, will his game fit as well against a more shifty player such as Makarov? I know he played his best against Hull when it comes to defensive play but at the same time does that really translate well into the players that are on the Cowboys who play a completely different style of game.

I'm not making Messier a defensive buffoon either. There's no denying he was prone to turning the puck over making the low percentage/high risk pass. Fleury's overtime goal where he skated the length of the ice and did his rollover was a result of a Messier turnover. He wasn't weak defensively but not in the same ballpark as Teeder was.

Kennedy likely was a better defensive player although that is more than made up for with the superior physical abilities of Messier when it comes to offensive production as well as physical domination.

I'm not questioning McGee's character either, obviously he was made of the the right stuff but his heart and desire on the ice is comparable to any Sutter.

McGee is in a class of his own. I understand that Sutter's are tough as nails as I have met them and they don't let anything get them down. At the same time though McGee exemplifies that much more than Sutter. Hell he went into a slaughter that he could have avoided in order to be with his men. How do you get more heart than that. There is McGee and then there is everyone else.

Your Cowboys certainly have an edge up front but it's not as large as you think it is.

Is that you changing your tune on Gainey outscoring the KLM line?

Now lets talk defense...........

Well as long as you are putting your 5'7 defenseman up against Lindros I don't forsee any problems from this end. Plus once again I must say that you are underrating the defensive abilities of Cowboys. A team that doesn't have the stud but they make up for that in a solid group which will be able to punish the players in front of the net - which is the area that you will have to score most of your goals. Had McDonald ever been able to score with a 6'9 Chara giving it to him in front of the net... or even a Blake. This is the time where the battles in front of the net shine and that is where size and weight matter, something that the Cowboys have in spades.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

When he could stay healthy, Dave Poulin was definitely a perennial top 5 defensive forward, up there with guys like Carbo, Tik and Otto. Staying healthy was the problem - he never played more than 70 games from 1987-88 through 1991-92. He might have started as a figure skater when he was a kid, but you'd be surprised how many hockey players took figure skating at some point. He was very tough to play against. Jiri Holik was a fine player, but in terms of defensive presence (which is what I look for from a fourth liner) I want Poulin.

It's one thing for the KLM Line to be able to put up points against Gainey in the Canada Cup. It's another thing to do it against Gainey AND Provost in a best-of-seven. Anything can happen in a best-of-one. The 1981 Canada Cup is proof of that. But in a seven-game series? That's much more impressive. Gainey and Provost are likely the two best for their role in this draft. Murphy2 has both of them. Gainey-Provost-Sutter won't outscore the KLM. But if the KLM line can average a goal a game, that would be impressive. The other element facing the KLM line is they will be in tough against any Edmonton line. Makarov wilted facing a lot less than Brian Sutter in the Stanley Cup playoffs. [/quote]

You keep saying that Makarov wilted in the playoffs but I don't see that being the case at all, having been to Russia I can't imagine packing my bags and moving to a foreign country, the culture shock alone would have been incredible. But what you fail to mention is that Makarov still was able to put up six points in the seven games which would have been third on his team in terms of points, for someone in a foreign situation that is pretty good and in 1991 you forget to make mention of the fact that he was injured late in the season and in the playoffs. Plus if you look later at Makarov's and Larionov's performances in San Jose against Detroit and Toronto, facing defensive player such as Fedorov (who won the Selke that year), Gilmore (Selke finalist), Primeau, Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Clark..... and they were both still able to put up very good numbers (Makarov 8 goals in 14 games / Larionov 18 points in 14 games) and that was well past their prime. And you want to think that the Oilers are going to stop these players? Put them in a situation where they are comfortable and they will flourist, and well I don't see how it can get more comfortable than the line that they dominated international hockey with.

Brian Sutter isn't on the Sittler line because he was a dominant goal scorer. He's on that line to hit people, to create room for Sittler and MacDonald and to finish the chances that they create. I'm not a big stats guy, but Brian Sutter did have three straight years with at least 35 goals and 225 PIMs, and he had three more 30-goal seasons. He's a great combination of grit, goals and guile. Tiger Williams was a great bookend for the Sittler-MacDonald duo in Toronto. Sutter will be even better.

Still though I would take McGee's heart over Sutter's knowing what we all know in retrospect.

But if I may seeing as though I have the home ice advantage that gives Imlach the much better coach the ability to match lines, in which case...

#2 Tkachuk - Messier - Fleury vs. # 2 Sutter - Sitler - McDonald
#1 Krutov - Larionov - Makarov vs. #1 Kovalchuk - Kennedy - Anderson
#3 LeClair - Lindros - McGee vs. #3 Gainey - Sutter - Provost
#4 Holik - Hlinka - St. Louis vs #4 Hadfield - Poulin - Pitre

I think that every one of those matchups is favorable in at least one way for the Cowboys and that there should be few, if any problems in blasting a few pucks by Sawchuk.

 

[Murphy]

Wasn't the KLM line fromed in roughy 1980.



Well I guess it is to bad that if you put Makarov into a comfortable situation - such as he would be on the KLM line that he would perform, and perform well. Do I think that the checking line of the Oilers would cause problems, I sure do. But at the same time I strongly believe that you are not giving the most dominant line in international hockey enough credit. There is no doubt that they were the focus of checkers in prior tournaments (including Gainey) so I fail to see why all of a sudden there would be such a large reversal of fortunes where the first second they would be against Gainey they would be completely useless. I know everyone loves Gainey but I can't help but think that some are vastly overrating his abilities in the defensive end, great yes. Superhuman. No. Provost is an interesting question, will his game fit as well against a more shifty player such as Makarov? I know he played his best against Hull when it comes to defensive play but at the same time does that really translate well into the players that are on the Cowboys who play a completely different style of game.

I thought you're an offensive machine, Hull wasn't an offensive machine? There isn't anyone on the KLM line that was faster than Hull, or better for that matter in any aspect of the game. If Provost was effective checking Hull, it shouldn't be thought that he'd have a problem with Makarov



Kennedy likely was a better defensive player although that is more than made up for with the superior physical abilities of Messier when it comes to offensive production as well as physical domination.

Kennedy's the man! 3 post Conn Smythe's to Messier's 1



McGee is in a class of his own. I understand that Sutter's are tough as nails as I have met them and they don't let anything get them down. At the same time though McGee exemplifies that much more than Sutter. Hell he went into a slaughter that he could have avoided in order to be with his men. How do you get more heart than that. There is McGee and then there is everyone else.

You're alluding to McGee's character which definitely isn't in question. Heart and work on the ice is something different and all the Sutters exemplified heart and determination.



Is that you changing your tune on Gainey outscoring the KLM line?

Not really, I think a frustrated KLM line might start trying some things that they normally wouldn't do and Gainey and Provost are opportunistic enough to score some on their own. Obviously they don't come near the KLM line in offensive capabilities just as they don't compare defensively. In a playoff setting they're not going to free wheel like they're used to and Gainey/Sutter/Provost excell at this tme of year. Its a bit of trash talking saying they'd outscore them but its plausible.



Well as long as you are putting your 5'7 defenseman up against Lindros I don't forsee any problems from this end. Plus once again I must say that you are underrating the defensive abilities of Cowboys. A team that doesn't have the stud but they make up for that in a solid group which will be able to punish the players in front of the net - which is the area that you will have to score most of your goals. Had McDonald ever been able to score with a 6'9 Chara giving it to him in front of the net... or even a Blake. This is the time where the battles in front of the net shine and that is where size and weight matter, something that the Cowboys have in spades.

Soooo, your defense can rule by commitee and my offense can't? Whats with that??

Chara might be 6'9 and Leo Boivin 5'7 but he hit much bigger than his size dicated. He's known and made the Hall of Fame as a feared hitter. If Chara's your biggest threat well.....your hurtin

There are 5 Hall of Famers and 6 Cup winners, Two Hart winners, Playoff point record holders, 2 retired as all-time point leaders on the blue-line for Edmonton. The Cowboys might be solid but if thats solid then the Oilers are titanium.

Pilote > Pospisal (large margin)

Bouchard > Blake

Pratt > Chara

Boivin > Smith

Seibert > Ozolnish

Green = Samulson (debatable)

Roberts = Gonchar ( two completely different defenseman)

I dunno Elvi, I think the Oilers defense beats up the Cowboys by a large margin, a much larger margin than the offense for sure.

One more thing,

Sawchuk > Plante

 

[Murphy]

I've got to figure out this multi quote function........

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

1. The style of game that Hull played was based upon power and the ability to log the puck with someone attached to their back. Is Hull very skilled, of course he is. That doesn't mean that every skilled player plays the same way as Hull did. Makarov was a shifty player one who was able to find the seams and get into a perfect goalscoring position that way. That wasn't the way that Hull played the game. Is it possible that Provost won't be able to play defense as effectively against a Makarov type player? I think that is something that must be considered.

2. Post Conn Smythes? What the hell are those? No one is insulting Kennedy but I just think that Messier is a better player out of the two and most hockey historians agree on that. Offensively, I would take Messier, and Physically I would take Messier again and from a leadership standpoint I would also be tempted to take Messier.... Kennedy might have had better faceoff abilities and defensive play but when it comes to picking either of them, only one has captained two teams to stanley cup victory... and his name isn't Kennedy.

3. McGee came back from an injury where he could risk everything (especially in the days when there were no helmets, let alone visors). That alone places him at the same level as Sutter when it comes to heart. What happened afterwards places him at a completely different level one which is reserved for true heroes, something I have no problem classifying McGee as.

4. Gainey had no hands and couldn't score at any level, it might be possible but at the same time it is also possible that OJ didn't do it and Paris Hilton isn't a skank she is just misunderstood? Likely? That is a completely different matter. I can see the KLM line being hindered by your checking line but I can't see them being stopped, especially with a coach like Imlach behind the bench who was similar in many ways to the coaches where the KLM line was able to achieve their greatest heights.

5. I am just saying that I think while you do have the better defense (much like I have the better forward corps) my defense is one which is going to make your forwards lives very miserable, their domain is in front of the net which is where many of your goals will have to come from. They feed off clearing the front of the net in any way possible and that is where their size and weight will have a significant impact on the way that the series shapes up. Other than tinman which players on your team really excelled at scoring off the rush?

6. Nu - Uh Plante>Sawchuk! As I said that could go either way depending on who you ask... as much of a sawoff as you can get. Maybe a vote for Plante because he was marginally better looking.

Edit: for the multiquotes of the same post what I do is I copy [quo_te=The Lone Elvi] Obviously without the _ in there and then do the [/quote] for the section that i want to quote and respond to. Takes a bit more time but I think that it looks a heck of a lot nicer and makes for a better read.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

I am forfeiting this series, I don't have the time or energy as my sister is battling for her life right now.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

I am forfeiting this series, I don't have the time or energy as my sister is battling for her life right now.

. Sorry to hear Elvi. All the best. My thoughts are with you and your family.

 

[Murphy]

I'd like to see the vote carry on as it usually would guys. Lone Elvi campaigned hard for the Oilers last series guys and if he wins this one I'd like to do the same for him next series.

Sorry to hear about your sister Elvi, I sincerely hope for a good outcome for her and yourself.

 

[BM67]

I am forfeiting this series, I don't have the time or energy as my sister is battling for her life right now.

. Sorry to hear Elvi. All the best. My thoughts are with you and your family.

Agreed. Best wishes man.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

Well things are looking a bit better than they were a couple of days ago, she has been stable for around the past 15-20 hours. Still in the intensive care unit at the University of Alberta hospital and it is touch and go due to an infection which really is an unknown at this point but I am praying and things seem to be somewhat turning around - heart rate is dropping/Bp is dropping which is a good thing considering it was hobvering around 130 (heart rate) and the BP was equally high for a long time. If you want to still have a vote go for it but I just wanted people to know that if I wasn't on the board at all that would be the reason for that. so far things are looking better and hopefully they continue to progress as they have this past couple days.

Still it is odd seeing the ones that you love lying helpless on a bed.

 

[VanIslander]

If you want to still have a vote go for it but I just wanted people to know that if I wasn't on the board at all that would be the reason for that.

You got the sympathy vote.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

At this point, I'll accept any votes....

Elvi, focus on your sister, I can't imagine the state I'd be in if I were in your shoes. I hope for a quick recovery.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

. Sorry to hear Elvi. All the best. My thoughts are with you and your family.

Thanks, well she is doing better it seems (it is hard to know when she is sedated/chemically paralyzed) they say that Blood Pressure is coming back down to not such a horrible level (not good either though). She is a fighter though so I don't have any doubts that she will get through this bout... it is hard to see someone you love on a ventilator and dialysis with a copious quantity of medication flowing into them. But I just had to get away from Edmonton for a while or else I would go stir crazy sitting in a small waiting room for what seemed like days (even though it was only hours)....

 

[God Bless Canada]

Thanks, well she is doing better it seems (it is hard to know when she is sedated/chemically paralyzed) they say that Blood Pressure is coming back down to not such a horrible level (not good either though). She is a fighter though so I don't have any doubts that she will get through this bout... it is hard to see someone you love on a ventilator and dialysis with a copious quantity of medication flowing into them. But I just had to get away from Edmonton for a while or else I would go stir crazy sitting in a small waiting room for what seemed like days (even though it was only hours)....

Elvi, glad to hear that your sister is doing better. Glad to hear she has a lot of tenacity, too. It makes a world of difference at a time like this.