Jim Robson Division Discussion Thread

[jarek]

NOTE: Please read the following prior to discussion.

The discussion in this thread is related to the division specified in the title only. All other potential matchups that could occur league wide are irrelevant as it pertains to the results of voting in this division. As such, compare only the 3 teams in this division to each other when voting.

@overpass @Sprague Cleghorn @BenchBrawl

Please post your rosters as you'd like us to view them as it pertains to voting. Mods, can you guys please make sure the 3 roster posts are at the top of the thread and all in-between posts are deleted?

Discussion may begin once all rosters are posted.

Click to read more...

 

[jarek]

DELETE

 

[Iceman]

3 teams with no apparent weaknesses that will grind out most teams in a long series, could potentially not matchup flawlessly against top heavy teams but other than that, looks like a fun division, good luck boys

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

View attachment 94539

Coach: Lester Patrick

Aurèle Joliat - Howie Morenz (A) - Helmuts Balderis
Doug Bentley - Max Bentley - Dave Taylor (A)
Zach Parise - Duke Keats - Jimmy Ward
Marty Pavelich - Steve Kasper - Don Marcotte
Dave Trottier, Billy Burch

Jack Stewart - King Clancy (C)
Art Ross - Tom Johnson
Ted Harris - Jiří Bubla
Marc-Edouard Vlasic

Jiří Holeček
Percy LeSueur

Powerplay:

Keats
Morenz - Joliat
Clancy - M. Bentley

Taylor
Balderis - D. Bentley
Bubla - Ross

Penalty Kill

Marcotte - Pavelich
Stewart - Johnson

Kasper - Ward
Harris - Clancy​

 

[BenchBrawl]

MONTREAL CANADIENS



GM: BenchBrawl​

Captain: Eddie Gerard
Assistant: Yvan Cournoyer
Assistant: Georges Boucher
Assistant: Charlie Gardiner
Assistant: Bryan Trottier
Assistant: Lionel Hitchman
Assistant: Red Sullivan/Ivan Hlinka

HEAD COACH

Al Arbour

ROSTER​

Bert Olmstead - Bryan Trottier (A) - Brett Hull
Jamie Benn - Mike Modano - Yvan Cournoyer (A)
Baldy Northcott - Jeremy Roenick - Bobby Bauer
Igor Liba - Red Sullivan (A) - Eric Nesterenko
Ivan Hlinka (A) , Viktor Yakushev , Milan Lucic​

Lionel Hitchman (A) - Eddie Shore
Georges Boucher (A) - Eddie Gerard (C)
Gary Bergman - Red Dutton
Andrei Markov , spare​

Charlie Gardiner (A)
Miikka Kiprusoff​

PP1: Hull-Trottier-Olmstead
Boucher-Shore

PP2: Bauer-Modano-Cournoyer
Bergman-Gerard

PK1: Modano-Nesterenko
Hitchman-Gerard

PK2: Trottier-Sullivan
Dutton-Shore

Boucher takes Shore's spot on the 2nd PK unit when Shore is penalized.

​

Forwards Estimated Time On Ice

Name	ES	PP	PK	TOT
Trottier	14	4	3	21
Modano	13	3	4	20
Hull	14	4	0	18
Cournoyer	13	3	0	16
Olmstead	14	4	0	18
Northcott	13	0	0	13
Benn	13	0	0	13
Roenick	13	0	0	13
Bauer	13	3	0	16
Nesterenko	8	0	4	12
Sullivan	8	0	3	11
Liba	8	0	0	8
	145	21	14	180

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Defensemen Estimated Time On Ice

Name	ES	PP	PK	TOT
Shore	18	5	3	26
Gerard	18	2	4	24
Boucher	18	5	0	23
Hitchman	18	0	4	22
Dutton	10	0	3	13
Bergman	10	2	0	12
	92	14	14	120

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[BenchBrawl]

Quick comments:

-Montreal has by far the best defensive group.The Hitchman-Shore and Boucher-Gerard pairings will see a lot of ES minutes, and both have guaranteed and proven chemistry.Both are Top 10 all-time defensive pairing.The 3rd pairing of Bergman-Dutton is very solid too, so fatigue for the Top 4 won't be a problem if it occurs.

-Facing Gordie Howe: When facing Gordie Howe, Montreal can switch Boucher-Gerard to Gerard-Boucher.Not that Boucher is bad defensively, but Gerard is an all-time great.Hitchman is also a great defensive defenseman.That will put Hitchman and Gerard on Gordie Howe consistently.Montreal has a LW line of Olmstead-Benn-Northcott-Liba, a particularly good two-way unit all things considered.Benn is the worst of the bunch defensively, but he at least has size (and so does Olmstead and Northcott).With Trottier-Modano-Roenick-Sullivan down the middle to back them up, I feel like Montreal is well equiped to manage Gordie Howe.

- Offense: Montreal doesn't have the high-end offense of its rivals, but it does have a lot of offensive depth.Trottier-Hull should be a tremendous and deadly combo, and Hull is well surrounded for the cycle game with Trottier and Olmstead.Many reasons to think Cournoyer's VsX score underrates him, which I might address later.Roenick and Benn are strong ES scorers, which is how they will be used.I already covered Bauer, he should be a VsX7 80 scorer more or less.Northcott and Olmstead provide solid all-around play while contributing offensively.Shore, Boucher, and Gerard can help in that regard fro mthe back end.For spares Montreal have Hlinka who can join the line up and add more offense if need be.

-Goaltending: Very unfortunate that I haven't had time to do a Gardiner bio.I don't see any significant gap between him and Tretiak at first glance.Either way, it's clear Montreal and Ottawa have the edge in goaltending over Algerie.

- All three teams arguably have a Top 10 player in Howe, Shore and Morenz.

- Sather is the weakest coach, whereas Montreal and Algerie have Arbour and Patrick, which are canonically considered Top-4 coaches of all-time.All coaches are a good fit for their respective squad.

-Shore's indiscipline: Getting Red Sullivan so late enabled Montreal to build a pretty solid PK, even without Shore on it (he is on it, but when in the penalty box, he can be replaced by George Boucher (check the stuff I found about him using his stickhandling to pass the time on the PK)).

- Leadership: I think Montreal takes this easily, though Ottawa has very good high-end leadership.I'd rank Algerie 3rd.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Quick comments:

-Montreal has by far the best defensive group.The Hitchman-Shore and Boucher-Gerard pairings will see a lot of ES minutes, and both have guaranteed and proven chemistry.Both are Top 10 all-time defensive pairing.The 3rd pairing of Bergman-Dutton is very solid too, so fatigue for the Top 4 won't be a problem if it occurs.

I have to disagree with this statement. I concur that Montreal has the best D unit but not "by far".

Algerie's #2, #3, #4, #5 and #6 are all on the same level as their counterparts on Montreal. What pushes Montreal over the top is Shore, and the known chemistry between Shore - Hitchman, and Gerard - Boucher.

-Facing Gordie Howe: When facing Gordie Howe, Montreal can switch Boucher-Gerard to Gerard-Boucher.Not that Boucher is bad defensively, but Gerard is an all-time great.Hitchman is also a great defensive defenseman.That will put Hitchman and Gerard on Gordie Howe consistently.Montreal has a LW line of Olmstead-Benn-Northcott-Liba, a particularly good two-way unit all things considered.Benn is the worst of the bunch defensively, but he at least has size (and so does Olmstead and Northcott).With Trottier-Modano-Roenick-Sullivan down the middle to back them up, I feel like Montreal is well equiped to manage Gordie Howe.

Algerie is also well equipped to deal with Howe. Algerie's left D are all big and strong and all are well known for their extremely physical play, which is the best way to deal with Howe. Algerie is also equipped with a top-5 defensive LW of all-time in Pavelich. However, Pavelich was more of a "finesse" checker, and if he has trouble with Howe, Marcotte, an extremely physical player, can be used to shadow Howe instead. In addition, Algerie also has Dave Trottier as a spare, another excellent checker who is also big, physical and a troll. Howe was known to have difficulties with Leswick's trolling. Also, all of Algerie's LW are all known committed backchekers and they should give Howe a bit of trouble in the transition game.

- Offense: Montreal doesn't have the high-end offense of its rivals, but it does have a lot of offensive depth.Trottier-Hull should be a tremendous and deadly combo, and Hull is well surrounded for the cycle game with Trottier and Olmstead.Many reasons to think Cournoyer's VsX score underrates him, which I might address later.Roenick and Benn are strong ES scorers, which is how they will be used.I already covered Bauer, he should be a VsX7 80 scorer more or less.Northcott and Olmstead provide solid all-around play while contributing offensively.Shore, Boucher, and Gerard can help in that regard fro mthe back end.For spares Montreal have Hlinka who can join the line up and add more offense if need be.

1st lines:

Howe >> Morenz >> Trottier
Joliat > Malone > Hull
Sittler = Balderis > Olmstead

I'll give Ottawa the edge, with Montreal a clear third. However, I do have some concerns with Malone at LW since I believe he only played one season there. Is that enough for the ATD? However, I think the perfect chemistry with Algerie's first lines might negate the Howe advantage. Everyone knows about the Morenz - Joliat connection. Balderis is similar to their real life RW counterpart Johnny Gagnon. This was one of the most successful lines of the 1930s.

2nd lines:

Richard > M. Bentley >>> Modano
D. Bentley >>> Thompson = Cournoyer
Fleury > Benn >> Taylor

This is a pretty tough call again between Ottawa and Algerie. Richard is the best player on all our 2nd lines. However, the biggest difference is that after the #1 player comparison, Doug Bentley is really far ahead of his counterparts. The inclusion of Taylor, who I will admit is the worst player on our 2nd lines does narrow the gap a bit.

3rd lines:

Keats > Colville > Roenick
Bauer > Mogilny > Ward
Northcott >> Parise >> Marchand

For the first time, Montreal has the best line here, mainly due to the presence of Northcott.

-Goaltending: Very unfortunate that I haven't had time to do a Gardiner bio.I don't see any significant gap between him and Tretiak at first glance.Either way, it's clear Montreal and Ottawa have the edge in goaltending over Algerie.

- All three teams arguably have a Top 10 player in Howe, Shore and Morenz.

- Sather is the weakest coach, whereas Montreal and Algerie have Arbour and Patrick, which are canonically considered Top-4 coaches of all-time.All coaches are a good fit for their respective squad.

-Shore's indiscipline: Getting Red Sullivan so late enabled Montreal to build a pretty solid PK, even without Shore on it (he is on it, but when in the penalty box, he can be replaced by George Boucher (check the stuff I found about him using his stickhandling to pass the time on the PK)).

- Leadership: I think Montreal takes this easily, though Ottawa has very good high-end leadership.I'd rank Algerie 3rd.

Agree with everything.

How I see things right now:

Forwards: Ottawa > Algerie >> Montreal
Defense: Montreal > Algerie >> Ottawa
Goal: Ottawa > Montreal > Algerie
Coach: Montreal > Algerie > Ottawa
Leadership: Montreal > Ottawa >> Algerie

I'll add a bit more to this later.

 

[BenchBrawl]

No time to write an elaborated post, but M.Bentley ">>>" Modano is extremely generous to Bentley.

Anyway, those ">" comparisons are silly in general.This is even worst if you do it position by position inside a line.A line is a unit, not a list of 3 players.

 

[jarek]

Voting is now open for the regular season of the ATD and will close on Sunday, April 1st at midnight EST. Please send your votes to @Theokritos.

Please vote for each division separately. You may, if you wish, compare the teams to teams outside of their divisions in order to rank them, but this is neither required nor encouraged.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The #3 team in this division would be #1 in more than one other division....

Tough break.