Jim Coleman Conference Quarterfinals: (1) Pittsburgh Bankers vs (2) Kingsman Secret Agents

[jarek]

@jarek @ImporterExporter

Post your rosters below.

Click to read more...

 

[jarek]

Kingsman Secret Agents

General Managers: jarek and peskypenguin4

Head Coach: Art Ross
Assistant Coach: Arkady Chernyshev

Captain: Rod Langway
Assistant Captains: František Pospíšil, Bob Nevin

Cy Denneny - Frank Nighbor - Patrick Kane
Vladimir Krutov - Mickey MacKay - Bob Nevin
Sergei Kapustin - Frank Fredrickson - Václav Nedomanský
Vic Hadfield - Don McKenney - Jerry Toppazzini

Rod Langway - Pierre Pilote
František Pospíšil - Doug Mohns
Nikolai Sologubov - Ted Green

Ken Dryden
Alec Connell

PP1: Denneny - Nedomanský - Kane - Mohns - Pilote
PP2: Krutov - Fredrickson - MacKay - Pospíšil - Sologubov

PP extras: Nighbor, Kapustin, McKenney

PK1: Nighbor - Nevin - Langway - Pospíšil
PK2: MacKay - Toppazzini - Pilote - Green

PK extras: Krutov, Fredrickson, McKenney, Mohns, Sologubov

Extra Skaters: Pete Mahovlich, C/LW, Randy Carlyle, D, Konstantin Loktev, RW
​

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Forwards

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Frank Nighbor	16	0	4	20
Patrick Kane	14	5	0	19
Cy Denneny	12	5	0	17
Vladimir Krutov	14	2	0	16
Bob Nevin	12	0	4	16
Vaclav Nedomansky	12	4	0	16
Frank Fredrickson	12	3	0	15
Mickey MacKay	10	2	3	15
Sergei Kapustin	12	0	0	12
Jerry Toppazzini	8	0	3	11
Vic Hadfield	8	0	0	8
Don McKenney	8	0	0	8
	138	21	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Denneny will see limited ES minutes in defensive zone draws, in favour of Krutov

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Defensemen

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Pierre Pilote	16	5	2	23
František Pospíšil	15	3	4	22
Rod Langway	16	0	5	21
Doug Mohns	15	4	0	18
Ted Green	15	0	3	18
Nikolai Sologubov	15	2	0	17
	92	14	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[ResilientBeast]

2 outside the norm kind of rosters and two of our more active participants, this should be interesting.

Nighbor might be the perfect guy to check Gretzky

Good luck to both of you

 

[Habsfan18]

2 outside the norm kind of rosters and two of our more active participants, this should be interesting.

Nighbor might be the perfect guy to check Gretzky

Good luck to both of you

Not to mention Dryden vs Roy. Now that’s a goaltending matchup.

 

[jarek]

2 outside the norm kind of rosters and two of our more active participants, this should be interesting.

Nighbor might be the perfect guy to check Gretzky

Good luck to both of you

I was thinking exactly along those lines. Nighbor, with his speed and fancy stickwork, might just be the very best player to check Gretzky.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Home Arena:
Duquesne Gardens

Pittsburgh Bankers Team:


Head Coach: Tommy Gorman

Captain: Wayne Gretzky
Alternate Captain: Dit Clapper
Alternate Captain: Ted Kennedy


Forwards:

Frank Foyston - Wayne Gretzky (C) - Vladimir Martinec

Nels Stewart - Ryan Getzlaf - Punch Broadbent

Sid Smith - Ted Kennedy (A) - Ed Westfall

Bob Bourne - Claude Giroux - Wilf Paiement

Extras:

Phil Kessel
Nikita Kucherov
Rick Macleish



Defensemen:

Jacques Laperriere (19+0+5=24 min/night) - Dit Clapper (A) (19+4+2=25 min/night)

Pat Stapleton (17+2+2=21 min/night) - Bill White (17+0+5=22 min/night)

Frank Patrick (13+2+0=15 min/night) - Si Griffis (13+0+0 =13 min/night)

Extras:

Craig Hartsburg



Goalies:

Patrick Roy
Jonathan Quick



Penalty Kill:

Ted Kennedy - Ed Westfall
Jacques Lapierriere - Bill White

Bob Bourne/Wayne Gretzky - Vladimir Martinec
Pat Stapleton - Dit Clapper



Power Play:

PP 1:

Gretzky (floating, will move between left half wall and behind the net, and generally pull defensive boxes in his direction) -Elite at role
Stewart (net front) - Elite at role
Giroux (right half wall) - I'd say near elite given his career PP totals and usage
Getzlaf (QB, right point) - 35% of points on PP, plays the point extensively for Ducks. He's at least good.
Clapper (Trigger, left point) - Good at role

*4 Players capable of taking draws on the 1st unit.

PP 2:

Kennedy (right half wall)
Martinec (left half wall)
Foyston (Slot, net front)
Patrick (trigger, right point)
Stapleton (QB, left point)

 

[ImporterExporter]

I do hope the Kingsmen try going power on power with my top line.

While I certainly think Nighbor is as likely as anyone to be able to slow down Gretzky, the fact remains 99 faced many great defensive players in the postseason in his career and he almost always dominated the competition.

83 Conference Finals vs CHI - 12 points in 4 games (+8) Lysiak
83 Semi Final vs CAL - 14 points in 5 games (+10) Risenborogh, Bridgman
84 Cup finals vs NY - 7 points in 5 games (+3). Would have matched up against players like Trottier, Sutter, Goring
85 Cup finals vs PHI - 11 points in 5 games (+4). Dave Poulin
85 Conference Finals vs CHI - 18 points in 6 games (+11).
86 Semi Finals vs Calgary which was a loss 13 points in 7 games (-4). Joel Otto
87 Cup finals vs PHI - 11 points in 7 games (+5). Dave Poulin, Ron Sutter
88 Cup finals vs BOS - 13 points in 5 games (+4). Steve Kasper.
88 Conference finals vs DET - 13 points in 5 games (+1).
88 Semi finals vs WIN - 11 points in 5 games (-1). Thomas Steen.
93 Cup finals vs MON loss - 7 points in 5 games (+1). Guy Carbonneau.

42 points (+16) in 4 Cup wins over 22 games going up against guys like Dave Poulin, Steve Kasper, Sutter, Goring, etc. Even in 2 Cup losses he wasn't totally shut down with 11 points in 9 games. He flat out produces regardless of who's on him.

Even one of the all time great defensive C's (Carbonneau) couldn't really shut down a well past his prime Gretzky in 1993 (7 points in 5 games). Gretzky led the postseason in goals, assists and points (40).

Gretzky's ES usage in the postseason is unrivaled (see below). The next closest player to him with 100+ playoff games in terms of usage is Sakic, a full 6% less that 99. Messier 9% less. If we factor in 46 minutes of ES time in an ATD game, 99 would be playing about 22 minutes at ES per game. That's not counting the big minutes he'd play on the PP. His historical dominance and usage at ES is going to be extremely draining on an opposing check. As great as Nighbor is defensively he's forced into a more defensive role and unless you have strong scoring depth down the middle, it's not exactly something you want to put your money on from a 1st line C.

And you have responsible defensive wingers beside him in Foyston and Martinec. I think Martinec would give a player who wasn't exactly a swift skater, Cy Denneny, fits 1-1. Vlad was an absolute wizard with the puck on his stick and unlike a lot of Euro's in the 70's, took a major beating from anyone and everyone and usually came out on top. Rough play never bothered or hindered Martinec so Denneny doesn't really get much value there IMO. I also think Gretzky and Martinec would be absolutely filthy in combination play and trickery whether in transition or in a cycle game with an aggressive player like Foyston bringing grit and tenacity to the line, working the corners and scoring clutch goals. Don't be surprised to see Gretzky double shifted some with Nels Stewart.

And lastly, as good as the top line is for Kingsmen in terms of clutch play, it doesn't quite stand up against Gretzky, Foyston and Martinec. We all know Gretzky's legendary postseason resume. Foyston made the HoH top 40 project for all time postseason performers and really only falls behind Nighbor from their respective era (in terms of postseason play) while Martinec was absolutely stellar in most international best on best tournaments like the WC and Olympics (minus Canada of course). His numbers stack up well with anyone, including the Russians of that era and he didn't have the luxury of playing on the stacked USSR teams throughout the 70's (not that the Czech's were poor or anything, just clearly a notch below in overall depth of talent).

Martinec International Awards and Achievements:
Olympic Silver (1976)
Olympic Bronze (1972)

Canada Cup Runner-up (1976)

WC Gold (1972, 1976, 1977)
WC Silver (1971, 1974, 1975, 1978, 1979)
WC Bronze (1970, 1973, 1981)

Extraliga Championship (1973)
Izvestia Tournament Championship (1970, 1977)

IIHF Best Forward (1976)
4 x IIHF All-Star (1974, 1975, 1976, 1977) (all over prime Boris Mikhailov)
Izvestia Tournament Best Forward and Top Scorer (1979)

More showing Martinec was both a playmaker and a goalscorer
Here's how Vladimir Martinec's 1.12 assists per goal ratio (58A:52G) at the WC's compares to some of the other stars of his generation…
Alexander Maltsev: 1.16 (89A:77G)
Valeri Kharlamov: 1.15 (85A:74G)
Vladimir Martinec: 1.12 (58A:52G)
Vladimir Petrov: 1.08 (80A:74G)
Boris Mikhailov: 0.72 (71A:98G)

12. Forwards - even strength usage - top 50 playoffs

Player	GP	ES%
Wayne Gretzky	208	47.4%
Pavel Bure	64	42.5%
Joe Sakic	172	41.3%
Mario Lemieux	107	40.8%
Zach Parise	94	40.6%
Doug Gilmour	182	40.3%
Adam Oates	163	40.1%
Nicklas Backstrom	96	39.5%
Bernie Federko	91	39.1%
Bobby Hull	113	39.1%
Eric Staal	53	38.7%
Ryan Getzlaf	121	38.5%
Mark Messier	236	38.4%
Paul Stastny	55	37.9%
Kevin Stevens	103	37.9%
Gilbert Perreault	90	37.9%
Alex Ovechkin	97	37.8%
Jarome Iginla	81	37.6%
Frank Mahovlich	125	37.5%
Norm Ullman	87	37.5%
Sidney Crosby	148	37.3%
Gordie Howe	68	36.9%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Another even-strength statistic that Gretzky dominates - yawn.

And lastly, I don't mind seeing Nighbor going up against Gretzky. One, it absolutely ensures Nighbor will be slanted towards a defensive role in the series. And two, it allows my deep crop of C's to feast on more favorable match ups IMO.

Getzlaf's a very strong playoff scorer and his regular season VsX is 83.7 so plenty good enough to get chances for himself and the line. Throw in a Corey Perry on steroids player in Nels Stewart and a good all around presence in Broadbent and you have an extremely physical and well designed line IMO. They're going to absolutely own some folks on the cycle and really make life miserable for opponents, especially physically speaking.

Ted Kennedy is an absolute nightmare match up in the 3C role. His playoff record is legendary. His postseason VsX is 10th all time (Gretzky is obviously 1st by a mile). While his regular season scoring rate is a bit low for a top 6 role, on the 3rd line he can thrive against weaker players because so much attention will have to be paid to the Bankers top 2 lines. He played with Sid Smith for a decade in Toronto so that's instant chemistry and Westfall provides a 2nd elite defensive presence on the line and should really help slow down Krutov or Denneny (when Bankers get last change on home ice). Kennedy will see a lot of Nighbor on home ice and I think is perfectly suited for that battle. He's one of the few C's here who can best or at least challenge Nighbor's postseason accolades, faceoff ability, defensive acumen and just overall impact on 200 feet of hockey.

Lastly Claude Giroux's 2017-18 has really raised his profile. With 2 games left and a score of 99 (for this year) according to VsX, Giroux's 7 year number climbs considerably to 87.9. That puts him above Ron Francis, Sid Abel, Milt Schmidt, and all the 2nd tier offensive only 80's stars. You have to figure he's going to have another top 5-6 Hart finish given his scoring and Flyers all but certain for the playoffs now. Plus he should garner another strong AS finish. He's a PPG player in the postseason. Ridiculously good in the dot, solid defensive player, gritty, agitating, plays a style that is conducive to playoff success. So while his VsX is certainly top 6 worthy here, his overall game fits well into a bottom 6 role given the skill and talent above him at C on the Bankers.

 

[jarek]

I'm probably going to change my lines up a bit in this matchup.

That being said, my initial instinct is to have Nighbor on Gretzky and Fredrickson on Getzlaf.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Where Bankers have a distinct advantage:

Coach - Gorman is pretty much regarded as a top 10 coach. I think he clearly outclasses Ross here. .

Leadership - Gretzky, Clapper, Kennedy, Foyston, Getzlaf, Westfall, Griffis is going to be tough to match for any team.

Center - Bankers are loaded. Greatzky is obviously the greatest all time, Getzlaf is every bit on the level of MacKay/Frederickson all time and Kennedy is far better than any of the 3 other C's on the Kingsmen not named Nighbor. Giroux offers explosive scoring for the 4th line player and is elite in the dot, a solid playoff performer and solid defensively. Especially after this year, I don't see why anyone would take somebody like McKenney over him.

Power Play - I don't think it's remotely close.

Small advantage:

Goalie - Roy's the greatest goalie ever, certainly in the postseason. Dryden is way up there as well which is why I only give the Bankers a small advantage.

Penalty Kill - Kennedy-Westfall is a wash with Nighbor-Nevin. I'll take Lappy and White over Langway-Pospisil. You can see below the massive usage both got on the PK and the impact they had on their teams kill. As I've said before, it may be the best pure PK pair in the draft. Our friendly HoH veteran @Batis provided me with many examples of Martinec being a dominant PK player for the Czech national team and I think he'd be perfectly acceptable as a 1st unit player here, certainly a standout on a 2nd unit. Couple him with Gretzky, the all time leading short handed points getter and you have an absolutely lethal 2nd F pair, especially counter attacking. Bob Bourne will generally get 2nd unit duties when the Bankers are up and 99 will get a few turns if we're behind in a game and are looking to turn the tide with a SH goal.

Penalty Kill - Defencemen regular season

Player	GP	SH%	TmSH+	$SHP/82
Jacques Laperriere	691	76%	0.90	2
J.C. Tremblay	796	66%	0.94	1
Marcel Pronovost	636	66%	0.96	1
Bill White	604	65%	0.88	1
Bobby Orr	657	62%	0.78	6
Francois Beauchemin	836	60%	1.08	1
Jay Bouwmeester	1071	59%	0.95	1
Serge Savard	1040	58%	0.82	2
Ray Bourque	1612	58%	0.88	2
Bill Hajt	854	57%	0.77	1
Chris Chelios	1651	57%	0.85	2
Barry Beck	615	57%	1.01	1
Tim Horton	1010	57%	0.92	2
Jim Schoenfeld	719	56%	0.77	1
Scott Stevens	1635	56%	0.88	1
Zdeno Chara	1350	56%	0.90	2
Willie Mitchell	907	56%	0.90	1
Derian Hatcher	1045	56%	0.89	1
Alex Pietrangelo	539	55%	0.84	1
Borje Salming	1148	55%	1.09	1
Rob Scuderi	783	55%	0.91	1
Chris Pronger	1167	55%	0.91	1
Bob Stewart	575	54%	1.19	1
Bob Plager	644	54%	1.00	1
Denis Potvin	1060	53%	0.82	2
Harry Howell	932	53%	1.05	1
Rod Langway	994	53%	0.83	1
Adam Foote	1154	53%	0.99	1
Dave Burrows	724	53%	1.05	1
Dan Hamhuis	951	53%	0.93	1
Carol Vadnais	1087	53%	0.98	1
Moose Vasko	600	53%	1.00	1
Niklas Hjalmarsson	623	53%	0.97	2
Guy Lapointe	884	53%	0.76	1
Tom Laidlaw	705	52%	0.98	1
Duncan Keith	913	52%	0.95	2
Richard Matvichuk	796	52%	0.86	1
Dan Girardi	788	52%	0.84	2
Nicklas Lidstrom	1564	52%	0.81	2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

3. Defensemen - penalty kill usage - top 50 PLAYOFFS

Player	GP	PK%
Alex Pietrangelo	57	67.7%
Scott Stevens	233	65.4%
Reg Fleming	50	63.6%
Roman Josi	52	63.0%
Serge Savard	130	62.0%
Jim Schoenfeld	75	61.8%
Jacques Laperriere	88	61.8%
Adam Foote	170	61.1%
Francois Beauchemin	97	61.0%
Bob Plager	74	60.7%
Bill White	91	60.0%
Barry Beck	51	59.2%
Ian Turnbull	55	58.5%
Bobby Orr	74	58.3%
Hal Gill	111	58.0%
Ray Bourque	214	57.9%
J.C. Tremblay	108	57.7%
Brian Leetch	95	57.4%
Borje Salming	81	57.0%
Guy Lapointe	123	57.0%
Bill Hajt	80	56.5%
Zdeno Chara	147	56.0%
Craig Ludwig	177	55.0%
Jimmy Roberts	153	55.0%
Marcel Pronovost	63	53.7%
Brad Marsh	97	53.6%
Tim Horton	106	53.3%
Tom Poti	51	53.2%
Pat Stapleton	65	53.1%
Dallas Smith	86	52.9%
Brent Seabrook	123	52.1%
Chris Chelios	266	51.8%
Nicklas Lidstrom	263	51.6%
Phil Russell	73	51.6%
Denis Potvin	185	51.1%
Chris Pronger	173	51.0%
.

[TBODY]

[/TBODY]

I struggle to see where the Kingsmen really have wide advantage(s). They have a better top pair on D but certainly not by any big margin. I think given the players and real life chemistry (Stapleton-White and Patrick-Griffis), the Bankers match or exceed the Kingsmen on the 2nd and 3rd pairings. The W's are probably a slight edge to the Secret Agents, but again how much of a gap is there? Martinec is every bit Kane's equal. Denneny is a notch better than Foyston but Foyston also bridges the gap with his stellar postseason record on an individual basis. You have to completely ignore and discredit what I found about Nels Stewart on the left wing to argue Krutov over him by any substantial margin. Stewart had more than a seasons worth of games at LW and scored at a near 50 goal/82 game pace over those games, so just below what he did at C throughout his career and frankly his game is best suited as a Luc Robitaille style goal scoring winger, especially opposite a bonafide stud play maker in Getzlaf and all around presence in Broadbent (who played on a line for 2 seasons with Stewart btw). We easily give credit to players with less of a resume for a secondary positions. I think Broadbent clearly outclasses Nevin. I do think the Agents have more skill at wing in their bottom 6. Nedonmaksy is the "best" player of any of the wings, but Westfall is one of the very greatest defensive wingers of all time, apples to oranges so to speak.

 

[Dreakmur]

Coach - Gorman is pretty much regarded as a top 10 coach. I think he clearly outclasses Ross here.

I've never understood why Gorman's viewed this highly. 2 Cups is impressive, but 8 seasons with a .500 record isn't much or a record.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I've never understood why Gorman's viewed this highly. 2 Cups is impressive, but 8 seasons with a .500 record isn't much or a record.

I think it's the fact he took less than dominant teams (2 separate teams in back to back years) to the promised land rather than being part of dynasties (Bowman, Blake, Arbour etc). Plus he had some part in building the Ottawa dynasty of the 20's and is the only person in the 4 major professional sports to manage 4 different teams to titles. So you have an elite builder who also proved he could take multiple teams to the title, behind the bench. That's my take on it anyway.

I think the tiers are something like this:

Bowman
Blake

Arbour
Patrick
Day

Imlach
Gorman
Shero
Irvin
Ivan
Quenville
Maybe Tarasov

 

[Dreakmur]

I think it's the fact he took less than dominant teams (2 separate teams in back to back years) to the promised land rather than being part of dynasties (Bowman, Blake, Arbour etc).

That is one of the two main things that build his resume.

The second one, I think, is that he developed the new tactic of forechecking aggressively.

Plus he had some part in building the Ottawa dynasty of the 20's

I agree that he played a big role in building the Ottawa dynasty, but what he did was recruit players and hire a coach.

and is the only person in the 4 major professional sports to manage 4 different teams to titles. So you have an elite builder who also proved he could take multiple teams to the title, behind the bench. That's my take on it anyway.

​

For me, what he did as a manager mean nothing. The only thing that matters is what he did as a coach.

 

[jarek]

To answer the question about why take McKenney over Giroux: Giroux's scoring is heavily PP biased. I wouldn't be surprised if he's one of the most PP reliant players in the entire ATD, although admittedly I haven't looked into this too thoroughly. McKenney is a more useful player at even strength I would imagine.

Unless you're putting him on a PP1, I just don't think his value is all that high. At least not the way you're painting it.

Admittedly though, perhaps I could have used him as he probably would have been my best PP center. At least according to Dreakmur!

 

[Dreakmur]

To answer the question about why take McKenney over Giroux: Giroux's scoring is heavily PP biased. I wouldn't be surprised if he's one of the most PP reliant players in the entire ATD, although admittedly I haven't looked into this too thoroughly. McKenney is a more useful player at even strength I would imagine.

Scoring over 40% of his points on the PP does make him one of the most PP reliant players in the draft.

]Admittedly though, perhaps I could have used him as he probably would have been my best PP center. At least according to Dreakmur!

He would certainly be your best PP center.

 

[ImporterExporter]

The Bankers are moving Giroux to the top PP unit. He's a right handed shot and will play extremely well on the right half wall given he's heavily slanted towards play making. Plus he's very good in the dot where Gretzky was largely average so that increases the value the PP even more. Martinec moves to bolster the 2nd PP unit and that allows him to handle more of a PK workload. See above and below for changes.

PP 1:

Gretzky (floating, will move between left half wall and behind the net, and generally pull defensive boxes in his direction) -Elite at role
Stewart (net front) - Elite at role
Giroux (right half wall) - I'd say near elite given his career PP totals and usage
Getzlaf (QB, right point) - 35% of points on PP, plays the point extensively for Ducks. He's at least good.
Clapper (Trigger, left point) - Good at role

*4 Players capable of taking draws on the 1st unit.

PP 2:

Kennedy (right half wall)
Martinec (left half wall)
Foyston (Slot, net front)
Patrick (trigger, right point)
Stapleton (QB, left point)


BTW, according to Hockey Outsider Giroux's been damn good at scoring and not being scored on at even strength in his 60+ postseason games as see on this chart: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/special-teams-roles-playoff-data-1960-2017.2432181/

13. Forwards - even strength "R-ON/R-OFF" ratio - top 50 postseason

Player	GP	R-ON	R-OFF	Difference
Billy Carroll	71	2.82	1.71	1.11
Dixon Ward	62	2.06	0.96	1.10
John McKenzie	67	2.24	1.30	0.94
Phil Kessel	71	1.88	0.97	0.90
Benoit Brunet	54	1.89	1.04	0.85
Mike Foligno	57	1.50	0.68	0.82
Milan Michalek	63	1.57	0.77	0.79
Pierre Mondou	68	2.00	1.27	0.73
Nick Spaling	57	1.82	1.10	0.72
Stew Gavin	66	1.44	0.73	0.71
Chris Dingman	52	1.83	1.12	0.71
Anze Kopitar	75	1.69	0.99	0.70
Darcy Rota	60	1.33	0.66	0.68
Peter Forsberg	151	1.59	0.94	0.65
Nate Thompson	58	1.65	1.03	0.62
Claude Giroux	63	1.34	0.73	0.61

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Gordie Howe barely misses the top fifty (he's +0.40).

Fun fact- Patrice Bergeron has the best R-ON ratio of any forward in playoff history who appeared in 100+ games.

 

[VMBM]

Our friendly HoH veteran @Batis provided me with many examples of Martinec being a dominant PK player for the Czech national team and I think he'd be perfectly acceptable as a 1st unit player here, certainly a standout on a 2nd unit. Couple him with Gretzky, the all time leading short handed points getter and you have an absolutely lethal 2nd F pair, especially counter attacking.

Yes, they would be a constant scoring threat on PK too; for starters, both were among the best pickpockets ever, and, of course, would be lethal on a 2-on-1 or even on a 2-on-2. Very exciting duo imho!

 

[jarek]

Yes, they would be a constant scoring threat on PK too; for starters, both were among the best pickpockets ever, and, of course, would be lethal on a 2-on-1 or even on a 2-on-2. Very exciting duo imho!

The trouble is that I'm not quite certain Gretzky is that great of a defender on the PK. He was there to do one thing - score goals.

If he was out there against a guy like Housley or Lyapkin, I'd be concerned, but my PP defensemen are fine defenders too, so I don't think it's really that big an issue.

 

[VMBM]

The trouble is that I'm not quite certain Gretzky is that great of a defender on the PK. He was there to do one thing - score goals.

If he was out there against a guy like Housley or Lyapkin, I'd be concerned, but my PP defensemen are fine defenders too, so I don't think it's really that big an issue.

Well, being a good penalty killer doesn't necessarily mean that you also have to be a good defensive player.

Gretzky and Martinec might not be the best forward pair at preventing PP goals (?), but they would definitely keep the opposition on their toes all the time, no room for mistakes; both had a great anticipation and, like said, were great at stealing pucks; I can see many breakaways, 2-on-1s etc.

EDIT: This is not so important, not really something that the series will be decided on(!) But at least in theory, G-M would be a good forward pair on the PK in my opinion.

 

[jarek]

Well, being a good penalty killer doesn't necessarily mean that you also have to be a good defensive player.

Gretzky and Martinec might not be the best forward pair at preventing PP goals (?), but they would definitely keep the opposition on their toes all the time, no room for mistakes; both had a great anticipation and, like said, were great at stealing pucks; I can see many breakaways, 2-on-1s etc.

EDIT: This is not so important, not really something that the series will be decided on(!) But at least in theory, G-M would be a good forward pair on the PK in my opinion.

If you were going to do a +/- for the PK in this series, I would expect my Nighbor - Nevin combo to be the best, followed by Kennedy - Westfall, MacKay - Toppazzini, then Gretzky - Martinec.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Well, being a good penalty killer doesn't necessarily mean that you also have to be a good defensive player.

Gretzky and Martinec might not be the best forward pair at preventing PP goals (?), but they would definitely keep the opposition on their toes all the time, no room for mistakes; both had a great anticipation and, like said, were great at stealing pucks; I can see many breakaways, 2-on-1s etc.

EDIT: This is not so important, not really something that the series will be decided on(!) But at least in theory, G-M would be a good forward pair on the PK in my opinion.

Precisely. Just the mere presence of Gretzky and Martinec (who via video and studies seemed to be a very good and heavily used PK'er) puts the opposing power play on edge. It's going to be in the back of their minds that any little mistake and there's a very good chance you're facing two very elite threats going the other way. Gretzky may not have been a plus defender at ES but he was certainly adept enough on the kill to generate ridiculous scoring totals short handed.

 

[jarek]

Precisely. Just the mere presence of Gretzky and Martinec (who via video and studies seemed to be a very good and heavily used PK'er) puts the opposing power play on edge. It's going to be in the back of their minds that any little mistake and there's a very good chance you're facing two very elite threats going the other way. Gretzky may not have been a plus defender at ES but he was certainly adept enough on the kill to generate ridiculous scoring totals short handed.

I'm fine with Gretzky on the PK here but what makes Kennedy a 1st unit PK man? I don't see a whole lot to support his PK'ing ability.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If you were going to do a +/- for the PK in this series, I would expect my Nighbor - Nevin combo to be the best, followed by Kennedy - Westfall, MacKay - Toppazzini, then Gretzky - Martinec.

FWIW, the real life Gretzky-Kurri combo is among the all time great pairings in real life PK +/-

 

[jarek]

FWIW, the real life Gretzky-Kurri combo is among the all time great pairings in real life PK +/-

Maybe. How much of that was because of the era they played in? Etc.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'm fine with Gretzky on the PK here but what makes Kennedy a 1st unit PK man? I don't see a whole lot to support his PK'ing ability.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/new-nhl-historical-data-situational-scoring.2446217/

Overpass study confirmed what was assumed. Kennedy played a lot on the PK and generated a ton of PK points. He's one of the all time great face off men and that is also an overlooked and invaluable skill to have when down a man.

Let's look at the 1948-49 through 1954-55 time period now. I've chosen to end with the 1954-55 season as the powerful Montreal power play of 1955-56 is well known and we'll save that for the next period.

First, the season by season numbers.

Season	PPG/team	SHG/team
1948-49	32.0	4.2
1949-50	37.8	0.5
1950-51	30.7	3.8
1951-52	36.8	3.8
1952-53	33.3	4.5
1953-54	41.5	3.7
1954-55	40.5	4.7

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Evidently the power play has arrived to stay as a significant part of the offence. Every season in this time has at least 30 PPG per team, and in that last two years of this period it's up over 40 PPG per team -- approaching scoring levels we have seen within the last 5 years.

I had hoped that data quality issues were behind us, but something stands out in this table. For the season of 1949-50, only 3 shorthanded goals are recorded in the data. All other seasons have 20+ shorthanded goals. In my opinion this total is implausibly low and we have missing SHG data from 1949-50.

However, we can still look at the PP scoring for this period, and the SH scoring for the other seasons.

Top PP teams for this time period. The Detroit Red Wings dynasty dominates the leaderboard, but several other single season teams appear. The Toronto Maple Leafs of 1950-51 were actually the best compared to the league. The Montreal team of 1954-55 appears--not surprising considering their success in 1955-56 would lead to a rule change. And the New York Rangers of 1953-54 appear on the leaderboard with a very interesting powerplay strategy, using PP specialists to a degree never done before or since.

Rank	Team	Season	GP	PPG	SHGA	LgAvg	VsLg
1	Toronto Maple Leafs	1950-51	70	49	1	30.7	1.60
2	Detroit Red Wings	1952-53	70	52	4	33.3	1.56
3	Detroit Red Wings	1949-50	70	55	0	37.8	1.45
4	Montréal Canadiens	1954-55	70	56	3	40.5	1.38
5	Detroit Red Wings	1953-54	70	55	2	41.5	1.33
6	Detroit Red Wings	1951-52	70	47	5	36.8	1.28
7	Detroit Red Wings	1948-49	60	39	4	32.0	1.22
8	Detroit Red Wings	1950-51	70	37	6	30.7	1.21
9	New York Rangers	1953-54	70	50	6	41.5	1.20
10	Montréal Canadiens	1952-53	70	40	3	33.3	1.20

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Next, let's see the top individual PP scorers for this time.

No surprise that Gordie Howe was number one, as he was the dominant scorer of this time period. He was more a playmaker than goal scorer on the PP, with almost twice as many assists as goals. He would run the Detroit power play from the point in the 60s. I'm not sure if he was doing so at this time in his career.

Max Bentley, the dominant PP scorer of the 40s, ranks high here as well.

We see defencemen high in the rankings for the first time with Doug Harvey, Red Kelly, and Jimmy Thomson in the top 15. Thomson must have been very much a passer, not a shooter, with 1 PPG and 59 PPA.

Rank	Player	Team	Pos	GP	G	A	P	PPG	PPA	PPP	EVP	SHP
1	Gordie Howe	Detroit	R	454	248	267	515	50	91	141	370	4
2	Maurice Richard	Montreal	R	449	235	180	415	68	54	122	290	3
3	Ted Lindsay	Detroit	L	445	180	251	431	48	65	113	314	4
4	Ted Kennedy	Toronto	C	425	114	209	323	34	66	100	212	11
5	Max Bentley	TOR, DET	C	358	113	127	240	30	65	95	144	1
6	Doug Harvey	Montreal	D	470	36	182	218	10	81	91	122	5
7	Bert Olmstead	Montreal	L	411	87	195	282	28	62	90	191	1
8	Red Kelly	Detroit	D	468	103	194	297	29	60	89	197	11
9	Elmer Lach	Montreal	C	336	83	170	253	32	53	85	164	4
10	Sid Smith	Toronto	L	419	154	130	284	50	35	85	196	3
11	Bernie Geoffrion	Montreal	R	274	127	109	236	36	44	80	155	1
12	Sid Abel	Detroit	C	302	107	139	246	35	38	73	170	3
13	Paul Ronty	Rangers	C	464	98	200	298	28	39	67	229	2
14	Milt Schmidt	Boston	C	396	101	161	262	20	46	66	192	4
15	Jimmy Thomson	Toronto	D	469	13	145	158	1	59	60	94	4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

And let's look at the leading scorers on some of the top single season units.

1950-51 Toronto Maple Leafs

Rank	Player	Pos	PPG	PPA	PPP	EVP
1	Max Bentley	C	7	22	29	33
2	Ted Kennedy	C	8	14	22	37
3	Tod Sloan	C/R	10	9	19	37
4	Jimmy Thomson	D	0	18	18	18
5	Sid Smith	L	12	3	15	36
6	Danny Lewicki	L	3	5	8	26
7	Joe Klukay	L	2	3	5	23
8	Cal Gardner	C	2	3	5	46

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Once again Max Bentley shows up on a leading PP unit. Presumably Bentley and Thomson played the points, and Ted Kennedy, Tod Sloan, and Sid Smith were the main forwards.

Next, let's look at the strongest PK units with the fewest goals against.

Rank	Team	Season	GP	W	L	T	Points	HomeGP	HomePPGA	RoadGP	RoadPPGA	PPGA	SHGF	LgAvg	VsLg
1	Boston Bruins	1952-53	70	28	29	13	69	35	7	35	11	18	6	33.3	0.54
2	Detroit Red Wings	1950-51	70	44	13	13	101	35	11	35	6	17	2	30.7	0.55
3	Boston Bruins	1950-51	70	22	30	18	62	35	6	35	13	19	3	30.7	0.62
4	Boston Bruins	1948-49	60	29	23	8	66	30	8	30	13	21	3	32.0	0.66
5	Montréal Canadiens	1949-50	70	29	22	19	77	35	12	35	13	25	1	37.8	0.66
6	Toronto Maple Leafs	1950-51	70	41	16	13	95	35	7	35	14	21	4	30.7	0.68
7	Boston Bruins	1949-50	70	22	32	16	60	35	9	35	19	28	0	37.8	0.74
8	Detroit Red Wings	1951-52	70	44	14	12	100	35	13	35	16	29	4	36.8	0.79
9	Boston Bruins	1951-52	70	25	29	16	66	35	14	35	16	30	3	36.8	0.81
10	Toronto Maple Leafs	1954-55	70	24	24	22	70	35	12	35	21	33	7	40.5	0.81

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Hmmm. The Boston Bruins show up several times on the list of teams with fewest PPGA compared to the league. Now Boston was not a terrible team during this time, but they weren't a top defensive team either, usually finishing 4th of 6 teams in goals against. Is it probable that Boston was consistently the top penalty killing team of this time? Or do we have a continued issue with reporting of accurate PP and SH scoring data from Boston? Remember they did not show up in the list of top PP scoring teams at all.

Here are the Boston numbers through this time period. The PPG and PPGA numbers are well below league average through 1952-53, and are then around league average for the 1953-54 and 1954-55 seasons. In my opinion the Boston stats may be suspect all the way through the 1952-53 season, with possible underreporting.

Team	Season	GP	W	L	T	Points	HomeGP	HomePPG	HomePPGA	RoadGP	RoadPPG	RoadPPGA	LgAvg	PPG	PPGA
Boston Bruins	1948-49	60	29	23	8	66	30	19	8	30	10	13	32.0	29	21
Boston Bruins	1949-50	70	22	32	16	60	35	15	9	35	14	19	37.8	29	28
Boston Bruins	1950-51	70	22	30	18	62	35	18	6	35	14	13	30.7	32	19
Boston Bruins	1951-52	70	25	29	16	66	35	12	14	35	10	16	36.8	22	30
Boston Bruins	1952-53	70	28	29	13	69	35	20	7	35	5	11	33.3	25	18
Boston Bruins	1953-54	70	32	28	10	74	35	19	13	35	19	28	41.5	38	41
Boston Bruins	1954-55	70	23	26	21	67	35	24	14	35	13	28	40.5	37	42

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Rank	Player	Pos	GP	SHG	SHA	SHP	P
1	Floyd Curry	R	388	9	4	13	145
2	Red Kelly	D	468	7	4	11	297
3	Ted Kennedy	C	425	5	6	11	323
4	Ken Mosdell	C	438	6	4	10	219
5	Gus Bodnar	C	434	6	2	8	208
6	Ron Stewart	R	193	4	3	7	79
7	Jim McFadden	C	352	5	2	7	178
8	Tony Leswick	L	479	4	2	6	194
9	Doug Harvey	D	470	1	4	5	218
10	Marty Pavelich	L	459	2	3	5	206

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Dreakmur]

Maybe. How much of that was because of the era they played in? Etc.

Nighbor dominated defensively in an era that players couldn’t make forward passes. You think his era didn’t impact him?