Jim Coleman Conference Quarterfinals: (1) New Jersey Swamp Devils vs (2) Montreal NDG Maroons

[jarek]

@Dreakmur @TheDevilMadeMe @tinyzombies

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[tinyzombies]

MONTREAL "N.D.G." MAROONS
1926 and 1935 Stanley Cup Champions

GM: tinyzombies
Coach: Iron Mike Keenan
Asst. Coach: Larry Robinson
Captain: Jean Beliveau
Alternates: John Bucyk & Scott Niedermayer

VsX 7 years in brackets.

John Bucyk (88.7) - Jean Beliveau (105.7) - Martin St. Louis (92.4)
Rick Martin (73.1) - Gilbert Perreault (85.7) - Bernie Morris
Bun Cook (76.3) - Vyacheslav Starshinov (R) - Harry Hyland
/ John Madden - Bobby Holik (R; 342 g) - Frank Finnigan
Marian Gaborik (69.9)
Dick Duff (403g)


Chris Pronger (51.0) - Jan Suchy
Harvey Pulford - Scott Niedermayer (48.6)
Leo Boivin - Bullet Joe Simpson / Albert "Battleship" Leduc

Grant Fuhr
Tim Thomas

PP1:
Bucyk - Beliveau - St. Louis
Suchy - Pronger

PP2:
Starshinov
Simpson - Perreault - Martin
Niedermayer

PK1: Madden - Finnigan - Boivin - Pronger/Niedermayer
PK2: Starshinov (R) - St. Louis - Pulford - Leduc

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Forwards
​

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Jean Beliveau	16	5	0	21
Gilbert Perreault	16	3	0	17
Martin St. Louis	15	3	0	18
John Bucyk	12	5	0	17
Richard Martin	14	1	0	15
Vyacheslav Starshinov	12	0	3	15
Harry Hyland​	11​	0	0	11
Bernie Morris	16	0	0	16
Bun Cook	11	0	0	11
John Madden​	7​	0​	4​	11
Bobby Holik	7	0	0	7
Frank Finnigan	8	0	5	13
Totals:	150	18	12	180

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

*Madden platoon with Holik or Duff depending on marchup. Madden played LW with Holik and shut down Mario/Jagr in conf. final.

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Defensemen

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Chris Pronger	20	5	2	27
Scott Niedermayer	21	3	2	26
Jan Suchy	13	3	0	16
Harvey Pulford	14	0	4	18
Leo Boivin	13	0	4	17
Joe Simpson​	13​	3​	0​	16​
Totals:	93	14	12	120

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

​

*Pronger/Niedermayer to play crucial minutes as a pair in all situations.

 

[Dreakmur]

​

NEW JERSEY SWAMP DEVILS​

​

Coach: Pete Green
Assistant Coach: Ken Hitchcock​

​

Dickie Moore - Joe Sakic (A) - Gordie Drillon
Johnny Gottselig - Alexander Maltsev - Jarome Iginla
Bob Pulford - Phil Goyette - Claude Provost
Boris Mayorov - Joe Nieuwendyk - Eddie Oatman​

​

Slava Fetisov (C) - Drew Doughty
Hap Day - Sylvio Mantha (A)
Rod Seiling - Kris Letang​

​

Georges Vezina
Dave Kerr​

​

Spares: Gilles Tremblay (LW), Jeff Carter (C/RW), Doug Barkley (D)​

​

PP 1: Dickie Moore - Alexander Maltsev - Gordie Drillon - Joe Sakic - Slava Fetisov
PP2: Johnny Gottselig - Joe Nieuwendyk - Jarome Iginla - Phil Goyette - Kris Letang​

​

PK1: Bob Pulford - Claude Provost - Hap Day - Sylvio Mantha
PK2: Alexander Maltsev - Johnny Gottselig - Slava Fetisov - Drew Doughty
PK3: Joe Sakic - Boris Mayorov​

​

Extra D: Rod Seiling​

Estimated Ice Time Forwards
Note: *Sakic and Goyette play the point on the 1st and 2nd PP respectively.

Drillon sees limited ES ice time in defensive situations, in favor of Iginla and Provost.

Name	ES	PP	PK	Total
Dickie Moore	14	4	0	18
Joe Sakic	14	5*	1	20*
Gordie Drillon	11	4	0	15
Johnny Gottselig	13	3	2	18
Alexander Maltsev	13	4	2	19
Jarome Iginla	15	3	0	18
Bob Pulford	13	0	4	17
Phil Goyette	13	2*	0	15*
Claude Provost	14	0	4	18
Boris Mayorov	6	0	1	7
Joe Nieuwendyk	6	3	0	9
Eddie Oatman	6	0	0	6
Total	138	28*	14	180*

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Estimated Ice Time Defensemen

Name	ES	PP	PK	Total
Slava Fetisov	18	5	3	26
Drew Doughty	18	0	3	21
Hap Day	16	0	4	20
Sylvio Mantha	16	0	4	20
Rod Seiling	12	0	0	12
Kris Letang	12	2	0	14
Total	92	7*	14	113*

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

​

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Containing Jean Beliveau:

At even strength

Bob Pulford is a legit LW/C, who likely spent approximately 1/3 of his best years at C. (This is an estimate based off information presented in the "Was he a center?" thread that came before the HOH projects on top centers and wingers). So Pete Green has the option of moving Pulford to C to match up against Jean Beliveau. In real life, Pulford did a great job on Gordie Howe, so I don't think he would be overcome by Beliveau's size and strength.

This would give the Swamp Devils a third line of

Boris Mayorov - Bob Pulford - Claude Provost

Why Mayarov? As shown earlier in the draft, Claude Provost is one of the best even strength scores on a third line in the draft, with an ES VsX score similar to Denis Savard and better than numerous 2nd line wingers in the draft (Source)! But Provost needs a playmaker, and that is where Mayorov, Starshinov's primary playmaker (and a tough two-way player) in the USSR comes in.

The Swamp Devils' limited-minutes 4th line would then be something like

Gilles Tremblay / Phil Goyette - Joe Nieuwendyk - Eddie Oatman

Gillies Tremblay is a legit two-way 4th liner in the draft, and this is why we drafted him as our 1st "spare." Goyette is undoubtedly a better overall player than Tremblay, but he was a center, so there's a good chance Goyette unfortunately gets benched in this scheme. I'm sure that after a full ATD regular season, Pete Green and Ken Hitchcock will have figured out if Goyette could play limited minutes 4th line LW, or if Tremblay is better there.

The reason we traded up for Oatman was to give Nieuwendyk a gritty playmaking winger if we needed to move Mayorov up.

Anyway, if Goyette is benched, Oatman (who was an All-Star D in the PCHA in addition to his many All-Stars at RW) takes his place on the point of the 2nd PP. Nieuwendyk's spot up front on the 2nd PP is too important to bench him.

Plus, Nieuwendyk was big and strong himself and elite at faceoffs, which gives a decent secondary option against Beliveau.

On the PP

To be honest, Believeau is much better on the PP than at ES. He's a great 1st line center at ES, but Henri Richard often outscored him there (though Richard may have gotten more ES TOI as Beliveau played the full PP). But on the PP, Beliveau is one of the true all-time greats.

Anyway, I think we have players who can match up decently well against Beliveau when Montreal has a PP. Even if Green and Hitchock decide not to move Pulford to C at even strength, he is the regular #1 PK center on the Swamp Devils who will match up against Beliveau as much as possible. On D, Mantha, Day, and Fetisov were all big and strong enough not to be shrugged off like flies by the big man. Doughty is okay too.

​

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Dreakmur pointed out to me that with Doughty finishing up the best offensive season of his career, he might just deserve a spot on a 2nd PP, regardless of whoever else we might have.

 

[Dreakmur]

Dreakmur pointed out to me that with Doughty finishing up the best offensive season of his career, he might just deserve a spot on a 2nd PP, regardless of whoever else we might have.

This will actually be his 2nd best offensive season, but he does deserve a spot on the 2nd pp if indeed Goyette gets benched.

While he may not win it, I think Doughty should win his 2nd Norris this year. It’s been his best season so far. While he is a few points behind the leaders, he is far better defensively than anyone ahead of him.

Before this season, he and Niedermayer had nearly equal Norris voting records. While the voting isn’t going to be official, I think it’s really safe to say his voting record will be better once they are.


Niedermayer's Norris record:
1st(2004), 2nd(2006), 2nd(2007), 5th(1998), 9th(2009), 10th(2008), 12th(1999)

Doughty's Norris record:
1st(2016), 2nd(2015), 3rd(2010), 6th(2014), 7th(2017), 9th(2013), 10th(2011)
+ whatever you think this year is worth

 

[jarek]

Hold on, why is Mayorov suddenly a two-way player? I never read anything like that about him.

Are you perhaps confusing him with Starshinov, who was an excellent defensive player?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hold on, why is Mayorov suddenly a two-way player? I never read anything like that about him.

Are you perhaps confusing him with Starshinov, who was an excellent defensive player?

I was honestly going off the way Sturminator and Rob Scuderi talked about Mayorov when Rob had him.


But there is this: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/atd-2015-bio-thread.1820973/page-3#post-99770167

Near the bottom, Tarasov mentions everything Mayorov can do and he includes "help out on defense." But that is definitely weaker praise than the glowing talk about Mayorov's passing, leadership, toughness, and transition skating.

Mayorov was a pretty good PKer, though not on Starshinov's level.

 

[jarek]

I was honestly going off the way Sturminator and Rob Scuderi talked about Mayorov when Rob had him.


But there is this: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/atd-2015-bio-thread.1820973/page-3#post-99770167

Near the bottom, Tarasov mentions everything Mayorov can do and he includes "help out on defense." But that is definitely weaker praise than the glowing talk about Mayorov's passing, leadership, toughness, and transition skating.

Mayorov was a pretty good PKer, though not on Starshinov's level.

I guess there's enough to call him passable defensively? I dunno.

I'm guessing his PK'ing abilities, much like many of the Soviets, mostly revolved around his skating and puckhandling.

 

[Dreakmur]

I guess there's enough to call him passable defensively? I dunno.

I'm guessing his PK'ing abilities, much like many of the Soviets, mostly revolved around his skating and puckhandling.

I agree he’s not an elite defensive player. He’s probably not even good at this level. I think he’s probably what we could call “responsible”. He’s not going to shut anyone down or anything, but he’s not a guy who is going to get exposed as a defensive weakness.

He’s probably not ideal in a checking role, but we think we need Bob Pulford going head to head with Jean Beliveau instead of Phil Goyette. Gilles Tremblay is a better defensive player, but, as TDMM mentioned earlier, we want Mayorov’s playmaking skill on the ice to ensure Pulford and Provost can make use of their very strong even strength scoring. He also adds some more grit as well, making it a line that could wear an opponent down over the course of a long series.

So, while having Mayorov may cost us a goal or two against - relative to more elite defensive players anyway - we feel he will help create more goals than he costs us. Overall, we feel he is a plus to that line.

 

[tinyzombies]

Leafs traded for Kelly principally to help deal with Big Jean so I don’t know if Pulford alone suffices here. It didn’t work in the 60 finals when Jean scored 3 ES GWG vs Leafs including the Cup winner. You have good size on your d but Iron Mike Keenan wants to point out that Bucyk enjoyed hurting people with clean body checks and was a monster on the pp himself. Pulford will try to be physical and will be gritty against Beliveau but his 188 pd frame (without added atd weight) will pay a very steep price if Jean so much as has to reapply brylcream. And don’t look now but when the refs weren’t looking Pronger slashed Pulford in the laces and he hasn’t been kind to your Soviet winger either. And he’s now talking smack with a wide grin in front of reporters. Suchy, of course, loves watching Soviets getting roughed up.

Also my second 5-man unit has four guys that can fly.

(Sorry, wasn’t me, but with the players and coach on this team this is an obvious response to aggression against our leader. Robinson will speak soothing words to Pronger to keep him playing under control as much as possible.)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Beliveau was larger than Gordie Howe, but I don't think he was stronger. I can't see him just shrugging off Pulford like he's nothing.

 

[tinyzombies]

Beliveau was larger than Gordie Howe, but I don't think he was stronger. I can't see him just shrugging off Pulford like he's nothing.

Pulford played him hard in 60. I just watched those games. Beliveau was very passive in the circle and on the boards - but he did score 4 goals in 4 games, 3 gwg at es and the Cup winner. He also had Henri’s line to distract Kelly.

With Bucyk, Beliveau would have Olmstead type boardwork helping him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Random note: I think we should just assume Bullet Joe Simpson is the regular in the lineup for Montreal and Leduc is benched. IMO, Simpson is one of the better #5s in this, and Leduc probably should have dropped out of the ATD years ago, after Joe Pelletier found out that he was a spare defenseman in the era of spares and starters, and that he got his nickname "Battleship" largely because when he worked up a head of steam, he couldn't stop without running into someone or something.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Pulford played him hard in 60. I just watched those games. Beliveau was very passive in the circle and on the boards - but he did score 4 goals in 4 games, 3 gwg at es and the Cup winner. He also had Henri’s line to distract Kelly.

With Bucyk, Beliveau would have Olmstead type boardwork helping him.

If only he had Dickie Moore.

 

[tinyzombies]

If only he had Dickie Moore.

Bucyk is a bigger Moore. Leduc was named to Mtl’s first 50 years all star team with Mantha. The accounts I’ve read including the Morenz book by Robinson said he was a fast skater

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bucyk is a bigger Moore. Leduc was named to Mtl’s first 50 years all star team with Mantha. The accounts I’ve read including the Morenz book by Robinson said he was a fast skater

Moore was better than Bucyk both offensively and defensively.

I find it shocking that Leduc would be named to a Montreal all-star team when he wasn't even a starter. But it seems like Sports Illustrated did do that... I mean, Leduc was a fan favorite and I'm not sure how much research SI put into that team.

 

[tinyzombies]

Moore was better than Bucyk both offensively and defensively.

I find it shocking that Leduc would be named to a Montreal all-star team when he wasn't even a starter. But it seems like Sports Illustrated did do that... I mean, Leduc was a fan favorite and I'm not sure how much research SI put into that team.

I will have to find the source. I understood that he took over after Gardiner left. [edit: no - “Lorsque Albert Leduc, 23 ans, se joint aux Canadiens en 1925, il a de gros patins à chausser. Il vient remplacer Sprague Cleghorn. Natif de Valleyfield au Québec, Leduc remplit admirablement sa tâche devenant un pilier de la défensive pour la majeure partie de la décennie suivante. Il a été jumelé dans un premier temps avec Herb Gardiner, pour ensuite patiner aux côtés de Sylvio Mantha.”]

Moore won scoring titles he was clearly the better player. I think Beliveau was passive because the Canadiens were dominant, why get mixed up in the other team’s game? The oldsters said he had one year where he played dirty and that got him the respect he needed so players didn’t test him after that (55-56 and 56-57; 143 And 105 PIMs).

 

[Dreakmur]

I don’t think anyone believes that Bob Pulford is going to hold a Jean Beliveau to zero points in this series. We’re not moving him there because that’s what we think would happen. He’s just a much better match than Phil Goyette. If this series was a 1 on 1 battle between Jean Beliveau and Bob Pulford, we all know who would win.

Having said that, I do think it’s a good matchup for us. Beliveau is quite unique in his combination of skill, speed and size. The defensive centres who can match his speed and strength are few, but Pulford is one of the guys who can actually handle Beliveau is all areas.

We don’t have to hold Beliveau to zero points. We just have to slow him down enough to outscore his team every game.

 

[Dreakmur]

Coaching - Mike Keenan and Larry Robinson vs. Pete Green and Ken Hitchcock

Well, depending on what you think of Pete Green, New Jersey either has the top 2 coaches or just the top 1. We really like Green, so we think he is the best coach here, but it is not easily gauged - there’s a lot of guess work and gut feelings involved when evaluating a guy like him. Hitchcock, however, is quite clearly better than Mike Keenan. As an assistant coach, he has proven that he is willing to work in that role, and has excelled numerous times without needing the leading role.

I think this is a clear advantage for New Jersey, though I guess exactly how much of an edge would depend on how much you like or dislike Green.

 

[tinyzombies]

I have a blurb on Robinson with sources from when I drafted him as assistant. He helped create the Jersey trap as an assistant under Lemaire and I have a solid two way line and a checking line, a deep blue line, and two money goalies. He and Lemaire probably inherited that knowledge from Toe Blake thru Bowman (Bowman has said the trap was used in the 60s). And he created the best PK ever in Jersey in his second assistant coach stint. It was bad before and after him and had the best percentage ever one year (he was brought in to fix the PK)- and he helped a subpar team get to the 2012 finals. We know he went to two finals as coach and won once. And he has a great rep as a dman coach. He also adds another strong winning pedigree as player and coach (6 Cups as a player, 1 as head coach, 1 as assistant coach).

I’m not sure how you compare these guys, the roles are amorphous. Keenan and Hitch are very similar as head coaches. Hitch coached longer, Keenan has more long runs. But do you compare them or do you compare Hitch vs Robinson as assistants (puck pressure vs trap)? How well is your team suited to a puck pressure style? I’m not committed to playing the trap full-time, any all-time team would need to shift gears and I think having Keenan and Robinson accomplishes that. Also Hitch has been accused of burning out teams by playoff time and alienating star players.

Green and Keenan compared as head coaches (Green also working as both assistant and head coach in his dynastic days, which could clash with Hitch, tho Hitch worked well in a team of coaches for Team Canada, tho they played Babcock’s style it seemed); both seem to have been good leaders, with Keenan having the shorter life span wherever he went as a hardline coach, which seems to fit this format since he also coached a lot of games and is among the winning % leaders combined with playoff successes and has coached lowly teams to overachieving results. With the mix of toughness sprinkled throughout my lineup and Keenan, no one will take liberties with this team.

I’ll also throw captain Beliveau in there. He and Robinson would help keep Keenan fresh. And the team would be motivated under the greatest captain to ever wear the C - 10x Cup winner as a player (2 dynasties) 7 more as a member of the organization (including a 3rd dynasty). Alternate captains Bucyk and Niedermayer were also great leaders and captains of multiple Cup teams. So, like with Messier and all those Oilers that went to NY, Keenan is in the best possible circumstances here.

 

[Dreakmur]

Green and Keenan compared as head coaches (Green also working as both assistant and head coach in his dynastic days, which could clash with Hitch, tho Hitch worked well in a team of coaches for Team Canada, tho they played Babcock’s style it seemed); both seem to have been good leaders, with Keenan having the shorter life span wherever he went as a hardline coach, which seems to fit this format since he also coached a lot of games and is among the winning % leaders combined with playoff successes and has coached lowly teams to overachieving results. With the mix of toughness sprinkled throughout my lineup and Keenan, no one will take liberties with this team.

I agree that Hitchcock could rub players the wrong way, though he did also have a certain way of dealing with star players who he clashed with. He and Brett Hull didn't get along, but they managed to come to an agreement and have success together.

However bad Hitchcock is with his players, Keenan is worse, right?

As for playing Babcock's style in the Olympics, that is mostly true. At that time, Babcock and Hitchcock played similar styles. They both certainly employed the NESN offense, which I believe Hitchcock used and popularized before Babcock was even a head coach.

I’ll also throw captain Beliveau in there. He and Robinson would help keep Keenan fresh. And the team would be motivated under the greatest captain to ever wear the C - 10x Cup winner as a player (2 dynasties) 7 more as a member of the organization (including a 3rd dynasty). Alternate captains Bucyk and Niedermayer were also great leaders and captains of multiple Cup teams. So, like with Messier and all those Oilers that went to NY, Keenan is in the best possible circumstances here.

Beliveau is an excellent captain, there's no doubt about it. Niedermayer and Bucyk are fine as alternates, but I wouldn't say either one is special in that role. Compare them to what New Jersey has - Joe Sakic isn't even the captain, Jarome Iginla does have a letter, Hap Day doesn't have a letter, etc.

 

[Dreakmur]

Why New Jersey should win....

1. Better goaltending: Georges Vezina has a good edge over Grant Fuhr, even in the play-offs.

2. Better Coaching: as discussed above

3. Better Defense: Fetisov is quit a bit better than Pronger. Droughty, at worst, is Niedermayer's equal, and this season may bump him ahead.

4. Checking Unit: The duo of Bob Pulford and Claude Provost is going to slow down the Beliveau line as much as anyone.

5. Scoring Depth: With Jarome Iginla, Provost, and Pulford being such strong ES scorers, our 2nd and 3rd lines should provide a lot more secondary scoring than their counterparts.

 

[tinyzombies]

Does VSX adjust for linemates?

 

[tinyzombies]

Why New Jersey should win....

1. Better goaltending: Georges Vezina has a good edge over Grant Fuhr, even in the play-offs.

2. Better Coaching: as discussed above

3. Better Defense: Fetisov is quit a bit better than Pronger. Droughty, at worst, is Niedermayer's equal, and this season may bump him ahead.

4. Checking Unit: The duo of Bob Pulford and Claude Provost is going to slow down the Beliveau line as much as anyone.

5. Scoring Depth: With Jarome Iginla, Provost, and Pulford being such strong ES scorers, our 2nd and 3rd lines should provide a lot more secondary scoring than their counterparts.

Vezina wasn’t even the best goalie of his era, Benedict was. Fuhr was considered the best in the world for at least 3 years.

Fetisov was better, but “quite a bit” better? No. Pronger dominated for 30 minutes a game and was considered the best player in the world one year, not just best dman. And after our top guys I think my blue line is deeper.

Pulford we talked about. He didn’t shadow Jean in real life, he had help from Kelly, how will he do it on his own here? And he wasn’t even a natural center from what I understand.

I don’t know about your scoring claim either. Have to dig into that. Morris on a third line is a luxury from my understanding and this crowd seems split on Perreault but Orr said he was his toughest opponent. The other guys on that line: Martin, Gaborik have multiple 50 goal seasons and add Niedermayer and I don't see anything you could do to deal with the combo of speed, skill and snipe, especially on your PK and blue line.

Madden-Holik shut down Mario-Jagr in the conf finals with Madden at LW and Holik cheating on draws with Madden ready to step in. You aren’t going to win any puck battles against them. Add Finnigan, the best defensive player of his decade. It’s got size, snarl, speed and a righty/lefty combo on the draw. With one of the most clutch playoff performers of his era Duff subbing in in certain situations.